TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: I’m taking that writing course at the extension school.
THERAPIST: I didn’t know that. [00:01:02]
CLIENT: This week I guess I just kind of [made the decision about the interview.] (ph?) It’s nice because it gives me things to do and I kind of feel productive. With the writing class, all of the poems that we read are essays that we critique and discuss. They’re a lot about education, like critiques and arguments for (inaudible at 00:01:54) education. [00:02:03] I noticed this at Dartmouth, too; whenever I took a philosophy course or something, I guess it’s hard for me. This particular essay was kind of critiquing students today, in that we are kind of dissimilar and distant and teachers entertain or like interaction was sort of – blah, blah, blah. I don’t know. I guess I find it hard for me because I’m like oh, no. That’s me. (laughs) I guess I’ll kind of use the example of one exception. [00:03:01] There is this one student who was really passionate and did well and he kind of felt good, but for me, it’s so hard to know what to believe or what to invest myself in. I feel like everything can be critiqued or everything can be deconstructed, so it’s kind of hard. I don’t know what to believe. I was sort of thinking about that yesterday and it still leaves me with the feeling that there is something wrong or missing. [00:04:02] I feel like I should be less passive and have more opinions or something. (inaudible at 00:04:25) (pause) [00:04:50]
THERAPIST: Maybe, in a way, you sort of fear the critique, to the extent that knowing that anything can be critiqued or deconstructed; so you’re kind of wary of investing [and sometimes more settling on it.] (ph?) (pause)
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: I guess I was saying that partly because I think a bit further downstream you fear nothing occurs to you or you can’t think of anything, but I think you sort of back up from that a little bit. [00:06:12] It turns out that you are more wary of thinking something because it can be torn down.
CLIENT: Maybe. Yeah. I don’t know. (pause) I don’t know. Like this essay, I enjoyed reading it because, for some reason, and also reading reactions, like there is something where critiquing gets at the truth or something. [00:07:10] I guess it’s just hard for me to form my opinions or thoughts of the truth because I always see the different sides and it’s hard for me to invest. I kind of like the critiques, but then I guess at the end I still don’t know what I kind of believe or want. (pause) [00:08:24]
THERAPIST: I guess, in a way, you’re also saying that it’s not just that either side can be critiqued, it’s that the critique will be stronger than the [edits and favorites] (ph?)
CLIENT: Right. (long pause) [00:09:35] I guess it reminds me of tensions or things that happen at work. It’s always hard for me. I guess I can always believe that it’s your responsibility. Even though I feel angry or frustrated, it’s always [me and kind of like my responsibility.] (ph?) [I don’t know why I feel so panicked or down – because I’m not doing this correctly or right.] (ph?) (pause) [00:11:06]
THERAPIST: The way that I was kind of waiving my arms around last week, is it’s kind of always your baby. (pause)
CLIENT: So it’s hard to have anything like confidence or a feeling of ease or something. [00:12:17] (pause)
THERAPIST: Actually, you sound, I think, a little more sure in how you’re laying this all out today than I think at other times you do – maybe in some sense, clear about either what the problem is or where you’re getting caught. [00:13:06] My hunch is less that – and I haven’t thought of it this way before – there is something that’s making it a little easier to put it out there. (pause)
CLIENT: I think it’s kind of familiar, maybe like having class, there are always general critiques of [today] (ph?). [00:14:03] Maybe it felt kind of the same, like I don’t know what else to do; I don’t know how to react. What’s the answer? I felt that way a lot at Dartmouth.
THERAPIST: It’s more like being in class brings up a very familiar way in which this operates. [00:14:59]
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: In which you haven’t had that much these days for not being in this kind of class for a while.
CLIENT: Maybe it’s easier because it’s people’s ideas and reactions and not emotions. (long pause) [00:17:06]
THERAPIST: Do you mean there is something about watching other people’s reactions and emotions getting critiqued or imagining critiques yourself or what other people are saying? (pause)
CLIENT: Just watching everyone’s reactions and critiques. (pause) [00:18:18] I guess I feel responsible to figure it out, (pause) to get at some truth or values or use the critiques for myself. (pause) [00:19:25]
THERAPIST: What do you mean to use these critiques for yourself?
CLIENT: Make sure that whatever I’m critiquing, I don’t do that or be aware or kind of use it to motivate myself or an ideal I should be or something. (pause) [00:20:10]
THERAPIST: I guess you have an idea that there should be out there an “uncritiquable” truth? I don’t think that you actually really believe that, but I wonder if you have a sort of fantasy about that that works.
CLIENT: Right. Or just some kind of truth or knowledge and confidence or satisfaction or (inaudible at 00:21:07). [00:21:10] (long pause) [00:22:32]
THERAPIST: I think there is a way that how you describe it makes it almost something to do with resenting an argumentation, but I think it goes back more so to something more inherently interpersonal, in that I think there is something in this belief that kind of the critique is always right and it’s always devastating. [00:23:30] Or it’s always more right and it always kind of flattens what’s being criticized, that makes it much more reminiscent of something interpersonal to do with power or authority, if that makes sense.
CLIENT: The reason why I’m thinking about this is, I think, it has something to do with pride. I was thinking about this because [a couple of years ago I was hanging out] (ph?) with Marlowe’s wife and she doesn’t taking any pills. (inaudible at 00:24:55) and she’s [a midwife] (ph?) and is all about natural childbirth. That’s fine, but in this interaction was especially apparent, her philosophy being like this pure form. It wasn’t like she was critiquing me, but it was just really apparent – her pride – like she really did her best. That annoyed me. Something about having strong beliefs –it was kind of weird to me, I was thinking, that someone could be so sure or so proud. (pause) [00:26:04]
THERAPIST: I guess I have a suspicion – maybe I’m wrong about this, but it wasn’t the strength of her beliefs or her pride in them, as much as her certainty that she was right that hers was definitely the way to go.
CLIENT: Right. I think she described something as “the best” and it was like her own amusement with herself or something like her sureness. [00:27:10]
THERAPIST: Related to this, I’m wondering, if her attitude had been more like “this is what really works for me.” I don’t really know, but “this is kind of what I’m into” or like that would it have made a difference or would it have been as annoying?
CLIENT: I don’t know whether it would have made a difference if she had been more individual or something. (long pause) [00:28:12]
THERAPIST: I guess where I’m going is to wonder whether it’s less about her having her theme or about her being, in a subtle way, kind of domineering about it. (pause)
CLIENT: I guess further down in the conversation, and maybe this is also what I was also kind of upset about, but she seemed a little off or whatever, like she was mad – not at me, but [just on that day] (ph?) or whatever. [00:29:12] She was talking about all of the places she had lived. She’s lived in lots of countries like New Zealand, Kenya, whatever. For some reason I didn’t understand why she comes off as so domineering and I feel like she should be happier or more content or something, [but she’s still weird.] (ph?) I was just angry at that as well. I don’t understand.
THERAPIST: She’s not lording it over you? [00:30:00]
CLIENT: No. I just didn’t understand why she was in a bad mood when you have so many good things going on in her life and she had experienced a lot. She’s successful, so I don’t understand her feelings or the mood she was in.
THERAPIST: I see. All that stuff should make her happy. Or at least more contented or something.
CLIENT: Right. [00:31:06]
THERAPIST: Is that partly because those are some of the kinds of things that feel hard for you to have, but feel like that’s what you would need to be happy? I don’t necessarily mean living in other countries or doing her particular job, but it seems like she comes across as somebody who has interests, has convictions, who went out and was able to pursue what she wants; and these are things you wish were easier for you? (pause)
CLIENT: No. I think at first she was prideful. It was just me being like I didn’t understand why she was in this bad mood because she has so much in life – something like that; just a very basic feeling. Nothing like I should be more like her. (long pause) [00:33:37]
THERAPIST: So it’s probably like the level of the conversation, where at first she sounds sort of prideful and leads, but then there is this kind of strange turn. [Or maybe it’s a little complicated] (ph?) and it’s just that she starts talking about this wonderful thing that she has and then, somehow, she was in a crummy mood. [00:34:07]
CLIENT: Right. (long pause) [00:35:58] Maybe because there were other people there, I don’t know if I felt like she was putting on some kind of front. Then it felt like it was hard for me to know what she really believes or like it’s all just kind of a façade. Maybe I was just feeling [mad] (ph?), not knowing what’s true or seeing her in a new light. [00:37:03] (long pause) [00:37:55]
THERAPIST: So are you describing, in a way, having this critical reaction towards her, where it started out feeling like she was kind of on top, and then I guess it switched; or like she was, in a subtle way, being critical?
CLIENT: Right. (pause) I know all these things about her, but it never bothered me. I don’t know what it was about this interaction with her that made me be more critical of her, unsettling or something. [00:39:14]
THERAPIST: Like more critical and that made the interaction more unsettling?
CLIENT: Just feeling like I don’t know how I feel about her anymore. There was this critique there.
THERAPIST: Had you felt before that she was as prideful and “right,” if you know what I mean, about where she was coming from? [00:40:03]
CLIENT: No. Yeah. It never came off that strongly, even though I knew all these things. (pause) I guess what stuck in my mind was building an argument against her or trying to make her seem absurd or something. (pause) [00:41:06]
THERAPIST: Maybe you’re right, maybe she is absurd, but it seems, in part, a reaction to your feeling a little squeezed or stepped on that you’re going to turn around and do that to her. (pause)
CLIENT: Right. (pause) It was, other than she seemed in a bad mood, [regretful or something.] (ph?) [00:42:08] (pause)
THERAPIST: We should stop for now.
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