TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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[00:01:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. Not much, really.

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[00:02:00]

CLIENT: I don’t know.

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CLIENT: I don’t know. [I feel like] (ph) I’m thinking too much about—yeah. Things outside of work have been just (inaudible at 00:02:35). But I don’t know.

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[00:03:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

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CLIENT: Yeah.

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CLIENT: I guess I’m now (ph) worried about we’re putting off being (inaudible at 00:03:39) of a few things. Like with moving or—I don’t know how exactly—I don’t know to do—I guess I want to—I don’t know. [00:04:05] Start looking for an apartment or no. If I want to save money, live at home. But I don’t know. There are a lot of negative aspects to living at home. But I don’t know.

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CLIENT: I don’t know. I guess I feel like I have to make a—I don’t know. A list of all the things I need to decide or to think about. [00:05:02] I don’t know.

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CLIENT: I don’t know. I guess it’s easy to put all those things on hold while being at work. I don’t know.

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[00:06:00]

CLIENT: I don’t know.

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CLIENT: I guess I’m just feeling a little I guess anxious about moving out. I don’t know what I want to do, not only in terms of moving, but also—I don’t know. How I’m going to—I don’t know. Prep myself or—I don’t know. I don’t know. Get myself ready—I don’t know. To leave or to change. [00:07:00] I don’t know. It’s like I feel like I need to push myself or pressure myself into—I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. To do everything right or going to have to change or—I don’t know.

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[00:08:00]

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THERAPIST: I guess one thing this is—what you’re saying now is making me think is—I don’t know. You said yesterday you often feel like pretty overwhelmed by how you’re feeling and you can’t deal with it. Or you don’t have the strength or resources (ph) internally to deal with it. And sometimes and in some ways, you do. I mean, I think it’s what you’re doing right now. I mean, you’re saying, “I’m worried about these decisions I have coming up. I feel some time pressure to make them. But I’m nervous about making them. And it’s not just those logistics. I’m also worried about how I’m going to get myself prepared to leave. And what changes I’m going to need to make.” [00:09:19]

A lot of the times, acknowledging where you’re anxious and what you’re anxious about and appreciating how you can be pulled into just (inaudible at 00:09:40) logistical aspects. And there are those, certainly. But there are other things, too. Yeah. I’m aware that you feel pretty overwhelmed by what you need to do, both the logistical part and the emotional part. [00:10:00] But I guess I’m just saying at this moment, as you’re talking to me, you’re not just running away from it. Or just overwhelmed by it. You’re also laying it out and thinking about it. And my point isn’t to say that it’s easy or that you feel a lot of confidence around this. But it is to say that you’re not completely incapable of thinking about it. Or seeing or (inaudible at 00:10:41) some of the things that are going to you—going on with you, around (inaudible at 00:10:46).

CLIENT: Right. [00:11:00] Not so much the logistical part, but the—I don’t know. I’m just worried or—and (inaudible at 00:11:20) have a lot of doubt about—I don’t know. Prepping myself emotionally or doing things—I don’t know. Or changing things. I just feel like I’m going to—I don’t want to have a lot of regret. Or make bad decisions. I don’t know. And I don’t know. I guess I feel like it’s (inaudible at 00:11:52)—I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:11:57) something differently or push myself more or—I don’t know. [00:12:02] Let’s see.

THERAPIST: And the regret you’re referring to is? [It sounds to me] (ph) like you’re referring to a specific regret you anticipate you might have. I’m not sure what it is. You mean of going to school? Going to grad school? That you will regret that?

CLIENT: No. I guess I’m worried about—I don’t know if the nailing down—I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. When mental, being stable or using this time to—I don’t know. [00:13:06] (inaudible at 00:13:09) or just be a better person or—I don’t really want to—I feel like I’m just—I don’t want to grad school a mess. Or I don’t want to—I don’t know what. And I’ll feel a little bit better –

THERAPIST: Do you mean regretting coming here because you’re not getting out of this what you want? And along the lines of what you just described?

CLIENT: No. I mean, I just don’t want to waste my time. Or (crosstalk at 0:13:55) –

THERAPIST: In a more general way.

CLIENT: Right. I don’t want to—(inaudible at 00:14:01) think, keep going through these weekly slumps of feeling the same. [00:14:07] I don’t know. A lot. (inaudible at 00:14:11) And I don’t want—I don’t know. I guess I just—yeah. (inaudible at 00:14:25) there or what to—I don’t know. Push myself or use this time to try something (inaudible at 00:14:34). And I don’t mean here. I mean just myself or—I don’t know. The way I go about things. Or the way I—I don’t know. I’ve always fallen into these (inaudible at 00:14:59) anxiety traps. [00:15:05]

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THERAPIST: Do you want to defer for a year and keep working on these things? On your own and here?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. [00:16:00] I don’t know. I just feel like—I don’t know. Like a failure or—I don’t know. I want to (inaudible at 00:16:17) and my work aspect. I want to (inaudible at 00:16:22), (chuckles) so, I don’t know.

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[00:17:00]

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THERAPIST: I think I also take your point that you don’t want to have regrets about how you’ve used this time that you—by that, I don’t mean here, but in your life, now. That you’ve didn’t get yourself emotionally ready somehow, in the way that you want to before going to grad school. [00:18:00]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:18:00) I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m not hard-working or I don’t have good study habits. I’m not worried about the work or the subject matter. It’s like I don’t want to keep feeling—I don’t know. Anxiety for no reason or (inaudible at 00:18:40)—I don’t know. Or better control of it or something or have some—I don’t know. Sense of what I want and not be persuaded. I don’t know. [00:19:01] By other things or my environment or whatever.

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THERAPIST: Yeah. But you have opinions and a (inaudible at 00:19:33) yourself. And these are the things that you want. Something you (inaudible at 00:19:43) things or go about things is not just from pressure or suggestions by other people.

CLIENT: Right. [00:20:00]

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[00:21:00]

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CLIENT: I guess I just—I don’t really know or even know where to start or that—[I don’t know] (ph).

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[00:22:00]

CLIENT: I don’t know. I guess I feel—yeah. Like it’s out of control or unable to—I don’t know. I don’t know. Do what I think what I want and (inaudible at 00:22:20).

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THERAPIST: You have idea about not wanting to regret how you use this time and wanting to pull yourself together before you go. [00:23:10] And it’s unclear how to start doing that over dealing with it, what it looks like.

CLIENT: Right. That (inaudible at 00:23:27)—I don’t know. Perhaps of being the only one to work or being mad at my friends or—I don’t know what I’m feeling. Or allowing things to affect the way I feel or I’ll be so negative or—I don’t know.

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[00:24:00]

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CLIENT: I don’t know.

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[00:25:00]

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THERAPIST: There just has to be something you can do to be in control of those things. That was unclear what that is.

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[00:26:00]

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CLIENT: In terms of managing myself, in terms of how I let it affect me or not. I don’t know. Being aware of the bigger picture. Relaxing or something. Just not being so—I don’t know. Anxious about one thing or (inaudible at 00:27:01). [00:27:01]

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[00:28:00]

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THERAPIST: I guess I (inaudible at 00:28:47) in this arrangement, you’re on this quest (ph) to figure out what to do essentially to become less vulnerable. [00:29:03] Anxiety and, I mean, irritations, really, things that make you angry put you in these sorts of these emotional holes, I think.

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THERAPIST: I imagine it feels like I’m following along. And trying to understand or appreciate this quest that you’re on. And why it’s important. And also, how difficult it is. [00:30:00]

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CLIENT: Right.

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CLIENT: I guess when you say, “Less vulnerable,” it’s not that I don’t want to—I want to be less vulnerable to my anxiety. [00:31:05] Not connecting with people or something that like that. I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah. Trying to think of an example. I don’t know. Sitting around, having a coffee break. And it’s not that I don’t want to talk to people or whatever. I don’t know. I don’t know. Joke around. It’s just that I’m so (inaudible at 00:31:59) or anxious about the work I have to do upstairs or just—that is consuming me, instead of—so, I’m unable to—I don’t know. [00:32:11] I don’t want to connect, because I feel like crap. Or I just don’t want to do deal with it. So, it’s not like I don’t want to be vulnerable to other people. It’s just that I’m so vulnerable to—I don’t know. My environment or other situations or . . .

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[00:33:00]

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THERAPIST: So, something happened there where as I’m—so, just following you along, (inaudible at 00:33:47) that you got worried about how it seemed I was seeing you or a misunderstanding I seemed to have. [00:34:00] As being misanthropic in some way. Or misunderstanding that you want to—the problem isn’t people. The problem is anxiety.

CLIENT: Right.

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[00:35:00]

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: I guess it just needs to be something important, though I can’t quite put my finger on what about the shift, I think, in how I seemed to you. Or how I went from basically I think benignly following along to having a wrong idea that I think, then, made you feel vulnerable to me thinking something inaccurate. And that also felt hurtful. I’m not saying that’s what I actually thought, but . . . [00:36:00]

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CLIENT: I think you said that I want to be less vulnerable. But I just wanted to make it clear that it’s not that I don’t want to put myself in situations that would make myself vulnerable. I just want better self-management of—it’s not—yeah. (crosstalk at 00:36:39)

THERAPIST: I guess what I’m saying is—what you’re saying is (inaudible at 00:36:44) to clarify, I think what just happened between you and me is one of the things that happens that does make interactions with people difficult. Where I think pretty quickly, I went from seeming more benign as you were talking about things that I think do make you feel vulnerable. [00:37:08] Your anxieties, your uncertainty of how to deal with them, the time pressure you’re feeling. That’s stuff you’re worried about it. And you’re being open about it.

But then, I think it got dangerous, there, when it felt like I had a view of that might have been off. And I think in a way that you wouldn’t have felt good about it. I don’t think it’s just that you thought that maybe I had the wrong idea. But also that you don’t want to think I see you as somebody who doesn’t want to be vulnerable. You didn’t want to think that I see as you somebody who isn’t interested in connected with people. That sucks. I can understand that. [00:38:00]

But I think that made it feel a little more dangerous. Made me feel a little more dangerous or threatening or something like that. Which you then proceeded (inaudible at 00:38:28) by saying, “Hey, that’s not actually not where I’m coming from. I’m not sure if you got this or not. But I do want to connect with people. I do want to be able to be vulnerable. It’s just that sometimes, it’s hard to deal with what comes from that.”

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[00:39:00]

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CLIENT: I don’t know. Right. But I don’t know. In my mind, it seems like (crosstalk at 00:39:25). I don’t know. To be (inaudible at 00:39:33) or to—I don’t know. (crosstalk at 00:39:37) –

THERAPIST: So, I just said to—in your mind, it’s less that I—it was—it felt like I might think something that would feel hurtful more I might think in a way that’s incorrect.

CLIENT: Right. I don’t know. I want to—I don’t know. [00:40:01] Nail down or even name the problem. I don’t know. I don’t know.

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THERAPIST: For both of us? For me in that moment?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess. Yeah (ph).

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THERAPIST: There’s something about it’s not being nailed down. Or maybe clear between us. [00:41:02]

CLIENT: I think it just makes it easier for me to think [about it] (ph). I don’t know. (crosstalk at 00:41:13) be or (inaudible at 00:41:16) or—I don’t know what else I was going to say. I don’t know.

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THERAPIST: There’s a lot of anxiety when it’s not so clear.

CLIENT: Right. [00:42:00]

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CLIENT: I don’t know. I mean, we’ll be talking about things that are vague or theoretical. And I feel a lot of anxiety. And it’s hard to—I don’t know. Nail down what is that. Or what’s going on. I mean, I know it’s not (inaudible at 00:42:43) as possible (inaudible at 00:42:44). (inaudible at 00:42:53) to—I don’t know. To deal with (inaudible at 00:42:56) with. [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: Although, in this instance, I guess there’s something going on with it. It being my confusion. In the simplest version of what you’re saying, I would imagine that it’s a—it can feel a little like doing a word problem in math. If you don’t have the numbers and you don’t have some sense of the model or how they—variables relate to each other or something based on a problem, it’s pretty hard to solve it. [00:44:00] And also, if you’re feeling you’ve got an important problem in front of you you can’t solve, that’s anxious.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: The wrinkle here, it seems to me, and which I am not clear how to explain is that what seemed important was to nail something down more for me.

CLIENT: Right. I mean, it feels like you’re helping me solve a problem I want to define or (inaudible at 00:44:49). I don’t know what a variable is accurately.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I see. Otherwise, I’m not going to be much help. [00:45:00] And I might actually disrupt things.

CLIENT: Right. (inaudible at 00:45:09) I don’t know. It’s easier, to me, to think about defining what exactly is wrong than—I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:45:27) processing (inaudible at 00:45:27).

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THERAPIST: To that version you’d rather focus on? Letting you know what you’re struggling with than struggle with it or something?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Well, we should stop for now. [00:46:01]

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