TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: Man I'm so glad this is my last meeting. It's just so overwhelming, and excited, and crazy. Yeah.
THERAPIST: We should sort of think and plan. Do you know any more about DC?
CLIENT: They offered me a job but they have to get approved with the hire ups and the payroll and all of that so it's not set in stone. They said I could have a job there at some point in the future, hopefully, in the beginning of January. But if something holds up the works with that then they said they would find an excuse to hire me a few months after that. [00:01:05]
THERAPIST: Well congratulations.
CLIENT: Thanks. Yeah it felt really nice to be so wanted by an employer.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: But, yeah, everything's looking good. I thought I wouldn't move until the first week of January. So hopefully it'll work out.
THERAPIST: Well why don't we, if it makes sense, run through December? In terms of money, I guess I can think of a few ways to handle it. One would be I mean could you afford like $50.00 a session, and then the taping would be $50.00, and that would be it?
CLIENT: Yeah. That would be great.
THERAPIST: Sure. Is that feasible for you? [00:02:03]
CLIENT: Yeah. I think I'll be able to do that. Yeah, I think I'll need some help from my parents in December so I can sort of statistically (inaudible at 00:02:16) into groceries. Lots of kale or something.
THERAPIST: Well if I'm as healthy as kale I'm doing all right.
CLIENT: Uh huh. (Laughter) But, yeah, that sounds very good. Thank you.
THERAPIST: You're welcome. I'm glad that will work out.
CLIENT: Yeah me too. When I looked at my finances last week, God, it was just... It was something I should've done earlier but it was still more surprising than I thought it was going to be. But yeah... Oh man. [00:03:09]
It has been such a week. It's too bad we don't meet on Mondays because I was really happy and excited. One day I was so happy about everything with the job. I've been doing (inaudible at 00:03:36) stuff. I've totally worn myself out over it. I was up all night last night and got four hours each of the two nights before. So the enthusiasm has kind of been dampened at this point.
THERAPIST: I would imagine. Oh well.
CLIENT: I just feel so silly. And I picked up this purse that clashes with my outfit, and just my hair looks terrible, and I'm tired. I just feel so frazzled. [00:04:19]
THERAPIST: Oh gosh.
CLIENT: It's so silly. But for a bit there I was feeling very poised and ready to move onto the next great thing. And here I am again pulling all nighters for $5.00 and hour.
THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like you're any less excited about the job. If anything I hear you're more towards moving on. You're just too wiped out to feel.
CLIENT: Yeah. I want to cherish the feeling of being excited about it because I know once I start it will be like well... I don't want to be too presumptuous. Like the people could say that I'm wrong for the job. [00:05:31]
THERAPIST: And that's (inaudible at 00:05:35)?
CLIENT: Yeah. And they used to have five people working on private equities but then when they were bought they laid off three of the five. And then one writer got offered a truckload of money by the Post and quit. So I would be joining a team of two people doing the work of five. One of these people who is like the top three in the world. I'm sure that if they approve me and I start there it's going to be super stressful. So I'm sort of annoyed that I'm so tired and I can't enjoy it while it's not happening yet. [00:06:19]
THERAPIST: Right. Right. Can you take any time off? I mean if you find out you'll be starting in January can you take some time off?
CLIENT: Yeah. I think I would just swallow my pride and guilty feelings and just ask my parents for money because this is just ruining my health this (inaudible at 00:06:42) stuff.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Eight hours of sleep in three days is really not workable. You've been sick pretty much constantly from what I remember.
CLIENT: Yeah. And remember I do a big with the (inaudible at 00:07:00) stuff like my migraines get worse. So I hate to ask my parents for money because I know they don't have a lot of it, but I think I just am eager to quit (inaudible at 00:07:19). And I had put off this work because of the interview, going to DC. And then there's this bridal tea on Saturday, and I had gotten to go to the symphony with Jeff, and Katie, and Chris so Saturday was just hacked. So then I had Sunday through today of just working nonstop. And because I missed two deadlines I got an angry e-mail about it which then I cried for an hour about that and was just miserable. I can't take having people angry with me which is so lame, and female, but I can't. I mean a lot of men can't either but it makes me feel... [00:08:12]
THERAPIST: There's a lot of what?
CLIENT: A lot of men hate having people angry with them too. It's not... It just seems to stereotypically weak and feminine, but I don't like how it feels. (Pause)
And getting this angry e-mail I'm kind of thinking well welcome to writing. I certainly have more angry e-mails in my future because you're trying to get people to tell you things they shouldn't tell you. And if they do then they get angry at you.
THERAPIST: (Pause) When did you get the angry e-mail from (inaudible at 00:09:07)?
CLIENT: Yesterday morning. [00:09:10]
THERAPIST: Uh huh. So that was after two nights and four hours of working all day for them?
CLIENT: Yeah. It felt pretty shitty.
THERAPIST: Yeah. I would think so. And you probably were pretty thin skinned emotionally after 48 hours like that I would think.
CLIENT: Yeah. And it's a frustrating situation because on one hand their pay scale is just absurd, and ridiculous, and wrong. On the other hand I procrastinated with these assignments and... Like if I would've been bad and then to (inaudible at 00:09:57) as a life choice, but if hadn't gone to DC, and hadn't had the bridal tea, and just done all these other things I wouldn't have been in such a bad situation. I just wish I didn't give them any grounds to complain about me because I feel like I really have a right to complain about them. But then I dilute that power by not handling the situation professionally. [00:10:26]
THERAPIST: I don't know. I mean alternatively you know you're probably going to be leaving them soon. You're know their practices are ridiculous. In that case you're trying to have the rest of your life. Who cares. [00:11:12]
CLIENT: I wish. I wish who cares would sink in; come into my head.
THERAPIST: Right. Yeah, it doesn't feel that way.
CLIENT: It just goes right through.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) Well that's unfortunate. And I guess that has something to do with you although I'm not quite sure why at the moment.
CLIENT: I think it's easy for things to get sort of roped into clumps of things I feel guilty about when those things get very heavy and hard to move around; stick around. [00:12:16]
THERAPIST: (Pause) I think you sometimes lose perspective when you're being treated really badly as you are in effect by them.
CLIENT: Yeah. It's hard in a one-on-one situation, which this effectively is, when someone has very strong expectations that are sort of strongly worded and set in stone to think that that's not realistic on some level. [00:13:12]
THERAPIST: (Pause) I see something about their conviction (inaudible at 00:13:40).
CLIENT: Yeah. And it helps that they have a whole institution, a venture capital funded company, behind them saying that this is how it should be done even though I think their business model sucks and it's going to bite them in the ass at some point. [00:14:01]
(Pause) But the real thing that's frustrating about this is when I started this cycle like I sent an e-mail about some things I thought they should do differently it was nice to be able to do that, but now I feel like I can't criticize them. And I e-mailed back to say that this really hadn't been working out, and the pay scale worked out to something horrible, that I was really frustrated, and kept trying to find other projects to work on because this is just not working. But if I hadn't procrastinated and missed my deadline that e-mail could have also said your business model sucks. Why don't you pay your writers more? I hate throwing away my leverage. [00:15:18]
THERAPIST: (Pause) What else comes to mind?
CLIENT: I guess that this frustration just feels really familiar and it feels like what happened with grad school that I feel like I have sort of valid complaints and demands that I would like to make, but then by being unprofessional, and not put together, and not communicating I just ruin my own credibility. And this is a pattern I really dislike because on some level I really want to tell people what to do because I feel like I know better than they do. But then I never have the opportunity to because I'm always late with everything just in my life always. But I never have that sort of professional unassailability I guess. [00:17:04]
THERAPIST: I think you're always scared of that.
CLIENT: Uh huh.
THERAPIST: Which I think you never feel all that safe whether it's with them or with professors at school which, I think, is why you're late in the first place because you're stuff has to be good enough that it's kind of unassailable.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And that in turn then undermines you're credibility so you can't really take them on. I think there's sort of fear in it and a sense of vulnerability at each step. [00:18:01]
CLIENT: Yeah. It seems like a lose/lose situation these things. Like either way I'm making myself vulnerable. Whether I turn in something shoddy or whether I turn in something good late I can't win. (Pause)
THERAPIST: Well assuming they're going to be as critical as you think I think that's true, but I'm not sure they will.
CLIENT: I mean (inaudible at 00:18:36) certainly wouldn't be. They want us to turn in...
THERAPIST: I assume they expect really shitty work, and the work you do for them is way beyond both in quantity and quality of what they would tolerate.
CLIENT: Yeah. Even the last cycle I had a different boss who said I was the best writer they had. And then the angry e-mail of the guy did say like okay so you give us really high quality work but you always miss your deadlines. I'm losing patience with you. That sounds personal like I am losing patience with you. I did not like the sound of that. It made me feel like a bad person. [00:19:23]
THERAPIST: (Pause) I guess I'm struck that (pause) yeah I think you experience this kind of as vulnerability such that a comment like that like all right you don't really know who... I imagine you're pretty confident doesn't value the same things that you do, and whose value, at least around the work, you probably wouldn't respect a whole lot, that works for a company that has an approach and a model that you don't agree with, that in spite of all of that he says something like that and it really, I think, goes right through you. [00:20:56]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I guess it sort of to me speaks to the way that as much as you're kind of closed or potentially protected by the perspective you have on who he is and where he's coming from, you're in a way totally naked and it doesn't matter when he says something critical. [00:21:26]
CLIENT: Yeah. I don't have a filtering place that protects me from that at all.
THERAPIST: Again, sort of a more kind of intellectual or targeted level I bet if we sat and talked through what do you know about where he's coming from, or what he values in the work, and what your sense is of him personally, and how he fits in with the values in the company, things that you don't like they all line up in a way to really undermine the importance of a comment like that, or why do we care about it all. But in some other way you really do. [00:22:14]
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean it may be that I blame myself for making myself vulnerable again because I haven't learned how not to do that. And then I was angry that it was possible for him to say that to me and that it was possible for the...
THERAPIST: Well I think you tend to do this. You... And it makes sense like thus far you haven't really been able to do anything about protecting yourself in a situation like that. I mean in the sense that it does really hurt or something like that. So you then try to manage (pause) like you try to make sure that won't happen by doing work that's perfect enough that they can't say anything about that and never sleeping so that you get it in as close to the deadline as you can so they can't say anything about that. [00:23:26]
I mean because of the primary vulnerability right there you sort of run around and shore yourself up or protect yourself in all these other ways that throw your life considerably out of whack. I think it was like that with school too that there was sort of the basic sense of vulnerability to the professor's criticism knowing full well that your work might have been better than most students at a very selective program and that professors would like it even if they would also say things that were critical. You know what I mean? But (inaudible at 00:24:11) was that, yeah, you had to do a lot of running around to try to manage it, or short yourself up in light of it, or protect yourself in ways that threw your life, unfortunately, out of whack. And I'm aware that in saying this I'm not proposing an alternative and that this is really kind of the reality you've been living with I think. [00:24:44]
CLIENT: Yeah. But we could be splitting hairs but (inaudible at 00:24:49). Yeah. It's frustrating to see that same pattern repeated in a new situation. (Pause) Yeah and I don't even know what part of it I would want to change ideally. I mean I keep trying to just get myself used to turning shoddier work. [00:25:33]
THERAPIST: I imagine that's a thing that would really make things easier is to be able to maintain a perspective in a more emotional way about criticism about all of it and maybe to be... You know if something's happened, let's say, with Jeff and you hurt him, and it's something you really shouldn't do, and he's upset and critical it's like okay that's one thing. But there's not a lot of differentiation between what that would be like and what these comments from (inaudible at 00:26:16) feel like. [00:26:19]
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: And it would be helpful to think if there were. If those felt very much of a different order like the equivalent of a (inaudible at 00:26:31) that you didn't even like on the playground said for reasons you knew didn't have much to do with you personally or something like that.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: But, again, I'm aware that in saying that I'm not saying that or do that.
CLIENT: It's funny. Last night I took a break to read some (inaudible at 00:26:52) and I came across a quote I really liked. What was it? It was something like the act of giving advice assumes that the person advised is already helpless, and lost, and that it is already, even at this moment of inception, a critique. [00:27:15]
THERAPIST: (Laughter)
CLIENT: A man after my own heart. Although you know theoretically sometimes it would be nice. I don't know. I don't know what I want from people. I mean it seems a virtue to want advice and to want to listen to others have to say.
THERAPIST: Imagine how you'll feel safer with people.
CLIENT: You never know. I've tried to avoid opportunities for people to give me advice.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: It'd be nice if I didn't mind it so much. [00:28:09]
THERAPIST: And he got it pretty right about what you don't like about advice.
CLIENT: Yeah. That it does feel it registers to me as a criticism even though I know it's rarely intended that way. Maybe half the time it's that way and half the time not even though it's paranoid to think. Maybe not.
THERAPIST: I don't know.
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean if you were going to give me advice you would probably be the least offensive person other than Jeff.
THERAPIST: Thank you.
CLIENT: You don't have to hold back if you ever...
THERAPIST: Give advice. I don't and I can explain why. I think this is really a (pause)... Well fundamentally it's a psychological issue to which there are which can't be solved instrumentally. And in a way (inaudible at 00:29:35) suggestions those are the values, I think, often have the effect of scaring... The fact that it is a psychological problem instead of looking away from... [00:29:50]
(Pause) So if I were to say well let's come up with some ways that you can reframe to yourself when you hear a criticism like that. What's going on. How you can keep in mind the actual distance there is between this person and you, and the way you can go over how little the criticism means to you, and think that through again, and maybe that will kind of cushion it a little bit or provide you a buffer. But the reason I don't like that is because it obscures the nature and sense of vulnerability pretending that there's something that can really be done instrumentally to address it which I don't think there can be. I think it's more a matter of looking at it, kind of working through the feelings that go along with it. It's sort of psychological and developmental process that totally helps. [00:31:06]
That's not to say don't cope or like... But I imagine your ideas or the things you've tried to handle that are (inaudible at 00:31:19). I mean, yeah, there's some times when somebody suddenly thinks of something or they can't see something. It makes sense if you're in an abusive relationship I would have no problem advising you to get the hell out of it. But with something like this you know how it effects you, and I'd imagine that you're working very hard actually to try to manage that. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that you could do different. Only I can point out what I think can be so painful, and I imagine we both have thoughts about why that is and what the context of (inaudible at 00:32:06).
CLIENT: Yeah. And you know what you were saying is a lot of the reason why getting advice is often so frustrating. Often the things people tell me are things that I have thought of, and tried, and things that haven't worked. [00:32:26]
THERAPIST: Yeah. Sure.
CLIENT: And it sort of makes me lose faith in communication if it is this process of having sort of like revel (inaudible at 00:32:39) or something. It's frustrating. And then you feel bad not accepting what is being offered. I don't know. It creates more opportunities to feel alienated from everyone.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (Pause) One thing that I'm looking forward to about going back to writing. I mean until I got this offer I thought it would be a really bad fit because in some ways you're very well (inaudible at 00:33:17) calling strangers all the time. But in another way you're like a secret agent because it's understood that it's an antagonistic relationship on some level. [00:33:31]
THERAPIST: With a source.
CLIENT: Yeah. Like you both know you want things from each other that are in nobody's best interest and that's acknowledged and that's kind of nice.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Instead of like being at grad school where we're all finding the truth together. It's this new whole pursuit. And the moments when you feel like it's not are alienated. But if you start out with the assumption of alienation then maybe that's actually better. [00:34:04]
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:34:07). It's like knowing you're in a chess game.
CLIENT: Yeah. And everyone around you agrees and knows that. No one is grunting about it. And it's funny. The reason I was so miserable doing it and so excited about grad school is I thought I wanted to do something self-actualizing where I would be myself all the time, and go after ideas and pursue what I really cared about, and that would suddenly be like my whole identity not just my after work identity. But it turns out that that's a very vulnerable thing and I just had no idea how bad that would feel. [00:35:01]
So the idea of making my ability to pay rent and buy groceries rely on something that I don't really enjoy doing with myself, and my values, and my dreams. It's just really... But also a situation in which I have some power. Like when I thought about going into getting a service industry job that was really unappealing because people can treat you like shit and get away with it. I just didn't think I'd deal with that very well. But in journalism you kind of know that people are going to treat like you shit, but you can try to find out something bad about the company they work and write a revenge article. There's always the hope even if you don't actually do it. You're like well I can burn you later.
THERAPIST: Yeah. You have a lot more authority than somebody like (pause) lead coffee getter or whatever.
CLIENT: You could put something unpleasant in the coffee, but if you get caught then you get in trouble, and I don't like that. It's not like putting something in someone's coffee is really going to effect their lives that badly. But with journalism you could potentially really effect someone's life pretty badly. [00:36:21]
THERAPIST: Does that happen?
CLIENT: People talk about situations in which they've had to decide whether to run a quote that would probably get someone fired. And the people I've talked to have often thought to do that because they didn't want quilt. Although actually one person did. I don't remember what the upshot was. I think the guy didn't get fired, but he got in a lot of trouble. I did write one revenge article.
THERAPIST: Oh yeah?
CLIENT: Which was fun. I mean the guy was just generally a total disrespectful jerk. He didn't say anything specifically terrible or personal but he was just a real jerk. I don't know. It just really got me angry. I was having a bad day like I went in the bathroom and cried after I talked on the phone to him. And I called 30 people who were tentatively associated with him trying to get negative quotes about him and two people said that his business was going to fold. But they said opposite of what he... You always tell people not to say things off the record because what's the use if you can't it. [00:37:31]
THERAPIST: Right. It's not a social conversation.
CLIENT: Yeah. So you're always you can do an (inaudible at 00:37:40). But they just told me that oh but off the record. So I chatted with the guy and I was like oh hey a couple people told me your hedge fund's going to fold. How about that? And we got in this really absurd ten minute back and forth of him being like I don't have time to talk to you about this, but it would be irresponsible to trust unsubstantiated rumors. Well oh I don't have to. I have you on (inaudible at 00:38:12). Tell me about it. We just kept saying the same things back and forth for like ten minutes. And he kept saying I don't have time for ten minutes and then he started threatening to sue. I don't know. It was fun. [00:38:28]
And then I wrote an article and I had a couple of people saying oh yeah, he'll come and look over your shoulder while you're IMing someone. It was like a little more legitimate quote than that. But that was cool. I spent way too much time on it. It wasn't like... In terms of what readers were interested in it wasn't a good use of time, but I enjoyed it.
THERAPIST: Yeah. It sounds like even if you only did it that one time it sounds like knowing that you had done it and could you do it made you feel less helpless and less easy prey for him being an asshole. [00:39:17]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That sounds like (inaudible at 00:39:20).
CLIENT: Yeah. With grad school and (inaudible at 00:39:26) ended so powerless. No power at all. I mean I hate that. And I feel like with journalism I was at least starting to get some power. For the first year and a half I really didn't have much power, but then the last six months I started to write some really good features that were getting noticed and people were I was getting really good feedback and starting to write revenge articles. And I feel like it was also a situation where if you figure out you can know what you're doing well enough that your editor doesn't bug you that much or tell you what to do that much. And it's going to take me a while to get there because I'll be on a totally new beat in a position that's much more difficult than my old one if this happens. But I know that I could get there. And with grad school I felt like it'd be five more years in which I would not get there ever in that situation. [00:40:33]
THERAPIST: Right. (Pause) How long do you think it would take with the job?
CLIENT: Maybe one year. It's hard to say because last time I wasn't one of two people doing the work of five. It's going to be different for sure. And also last time I had a broader range so I was talking to people who actually wanted to get their names out there. Business principals really don't want anything to do with the media. So you have to get up and do mind games, and social occasions, and attempt to befriend them, and pitch stories that they want to be in. You have to court them and it takes a while. [00:41:39]
THERAPIST: Oh. There's a lot about developing relationships with people.
CLIENT: Yeah. Which is one reason I thought I really didn't want to go back into writing.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:41:51).
CLIENT: Yeah. Like I'd rather develop relationships where I have power than just be in situations where everyone can be a jerk to me and I can't really do anything about it.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) Well why don't we stop for now. (inaudible at 00:42:14).
CLIENT: Okay. See you then.
THERAPIST: Take care.
CLIENT: Have a good Thanksgiving.
THERAPIST: Thank you. You too. [00:42:22]
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