TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I will otherwise be around and if you are around through that week, okay first of all, I will have it figured it out by next week and second of all, if you're around that week, I will probably be in and have some time on at least one of those days.

CLIENT: Okay, I probably won't be around actually.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And things are still up in the air with the job. So, I'm trying, I decided to move out of my apartment no matter what, but I have no idea where I will be.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I will be here until probably around the 20th and then it's sort of unsure. [00:00:59]

THERAPIST: Okay and today is the 5th.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, would we meet and like today, next week, and the week after?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think, yeah. Probably. And if I get the job, I will probably come back that week so I might be able to see you, if you are around when I'm around.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I will know that hopefully by next week.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: That's not a whole lot of time in any case.

CLIENT: No, yeah. Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot. How rough it is to wrap up something like this and yeah what too talk about when you know the time is limited, which wasn't something I really though about so much before. [00:02:02]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So I was just, I have certain things in mind that I want to talk about but it was never, it never seemed to come to train (ph) at all.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well one thing is whatever thoughts you've had about our, you know the time that we need.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And what, and where we like to stop.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's been (ph) scared about what it's going to be like to stop. I don't know. (pause) I guess there are a lot of things that I don't really discuss with people and I do talk to Jeff about, I mean he has been the one person who I do talk really open with about a variety of topics. [00:03:18]

CLIENT: But you know, other than him, I mean I think I have come to rely on this time as you know something that it's, there is going to be a big hole in my life when we aren't meeting anymore. It's sad and I don't like to think about it (laughs). (pause) It's strange to talk about. (laughs) I don't know. (pause) I don't know. [00:04:10]

THERAPIST: Strange as in uncomfortable or strange as in bizarre or severe (ph) or?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know? (pause) I don't know. (giggles) (pause) I guess I haven't had a situation like this where I talk to someone regularly and then it sort of ends for a constrained reason.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:04:56]

CLIENT: It's just sort of a unique situation. (pause) I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well it's not at a point where it's either wasn't working anymore in the way that it had been (ph) or it felt like we were done.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It (inaudible) where you're likely to be and in terms of money and that is totally different.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah and the talking aspect, I mean it's sort of a strange combination of a medical objective and a lot of conservation, which makes it more of like a friendship in a way (laughs).

THERAPIST: Sure, of course. [00:05:50]

CLIENT: And, which makes it stranger. You know, I'm used to having strictly medical relationships to end, you know usually for some reason. Sometimes not, sometimes because I haven't had the money or sort of you know. But I just (inaudible), I feel it's like having a friend who I can't talk to anymore for just other (ph) reasons. I know it's not like a friendship because (laughs) you don't get to say anything to me about what you're going through. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs) (both speaking) someday. After talking about a lot of, you know as difficult as it is stuff, like what the hell?

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. (pause) Yeah. (pause) Yeah, so it's just really, I don't know. It's just strange and sad to think that come January (laughs) that I won't be able to talk to you anymore. [00:06:59]

CLIENT: And also, there will be more appearance (ph), which you know isn't like it's a surprise in any way but I know so little about you, because when there are meetings set up every week, it doesn't seem as final. But I don't know whether you believe in a higher power (laughs).

THERAPIST: (both speaking) this week or next week.

CLIENT: Maybe, (inaudible) (laughing) or not just like that, which I'm more actively curious about is the specific thing as opposed to also just details or shave (ph) the personalities that haven't been relieved, won't be (laughs).

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Which is (pause). [00:07:48]

THERAPIST: Are there things that your, what other things are you curious about? Or what is it that you wonder about to do with my, I don't know my (inaudible) thing like that? I guess I probably won't say all that much about that as I guess, I don't mean to be asking a (inaudible) or tricky question but in terms of sort of, I'm asking because I guess I imagine it would help me to understand about aspects of where you are coming from or I don't know. Is it about our relationship or things about you that are relative to what we have been talking about (inaudible). [00:08:53]

CLIENT: No not really. (pause) I guess I see it largely as most important is a yes or no question. Because I think whatever the details, there is comfort in believing that there is a higher power, and I guess I am just curious about your worldview because I think that could be a very powerful foundation for a worldview and for personal and professional life and sort of underpinning the ability to be happy. (pause) And I guess I'm partly curious because (pause)

THERAPIST: Do you hope, it's like you kind of hope that I do in a way.

CLIENT: (pause) I guess I sort of, I have suspect that you do partly because you this successful professional life and I sort of imagine that you have a happy personal life. I mean I don't know anything about your personal life (laughs) [00:10:09]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But I don't know. You don't seem as much of a tortured soul even though you are a very empathetic person, I just imagine that I don't know (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I guess that I have a kind of ease and (pause) I don't know. Peacefulness or equinity (ph) that sounds like you associate with in a meaningful spiritual life and probably as part of that belief in a higher power, like that? [00:10:54]

CLIENT: (pause) I mean, I feel like a spiritual life doesn't have to be a (inaudible) peace to be a powerful foundation. I feel that of the various people I know who believe in God, they range from never having the spiritual community but just sort of having, think that something is out there to having a meaning spiritual life. (pause) So, I'm just curious about the level of the fact.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Because I feel like the fact is more important than the level.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Belief or detail to the belief.

THERAPIST: My question for you is that has changed, you used to and no longer do. [00:11:54]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I feel like it's easier to. I mean believing in a higher power comes with all sorts of questions that are very torturous (chuckles) to make you pretty miserable so I think that over simplification in imagining that it can be a comforting foundation because I feel a lot of people, it's like a thorn in their side having irreconcilable beliefs and texts all in one book, unless you don't believe in the Bible. Then I think it's easier to sort of, whatever you want (laughs).

THERAPIST: (both speaking) (laughing)

CLIENT: (laughs) You can be pretty convenient about it, or you can try to reconcile a type for you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:12:51]

CLIENT: And you know even the really convenient people I think have doubts about (pause) so it's totally not really that true what I'm saying, but, (laughs) (pause) I guess it seems, you seem like happiness comes naturally to you. (laughs) I mean I don't know anything about your personal life but I just imagine that you have good relationships and I just wonder whether you have a belief underpinning that or whether it is just something that can just come naturally to people and where it comes from. [00:13:57]

THERAPIST: It sounds like the kind of code to is that it would rest on my belief that a higher power but maybe it doesn't, and if it doesn't then where does it come from. Like that?

CLIENT: Not so much that I think a belief in the higher power is the source of it because I don't think that. I think it would be sort like an enabling clause in the world view maybe. Maybe not. (pause) I mean part of me hopes you don't because that would be encouraging for me (laughs).

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But then part of me thinks that you do because it seems like maybe happiness wouldn't come as naturally if you didn't (laughs).

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Are there other things that bear on your thinking one way or the other, that have come up as we talked or? [00:15:08]

CLIENT: Not really, because I think that belief in the higher power manifests for me in different ways. It's pretty hard to recognize without content. (pause) Although, I mean there are some people who I sort of highly suspect but.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause)

CLIENT: Especially because for some people, it is really like a source of stability and for others it is a source of just questions and the varying guilt. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Right. (laughs) (inaudible) like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:15:57]

THERAPIST: When specifically did you stop believing?

CLIENT: My junior year of college, so around the time the traumatic stuff happened and I also had a friend who had been very religious and more observant than I ever was. She was losing her faith and I think hearing about her journey was that sort of gave me license to let go. (pause)

THERAPIST: Are there people that are (inaudible) or was it like a watershed moment or experiences or was it just something that happened around that time? [00:16:51]

CLIENT: (pause) Well one thing that has really shaken my faith was what happened the summer after freshman year of undergrad when I had had that bad situation with that guy and hallucinated and heard the devil speaking to me and had to really figure out, is this real or is this my imagination?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And deciding that it was my imagination just made me doubt all of the experiences that I had had up to that point because I thought how powerful my imagination was.

THERAPIST: I see. (pause) So if your imagination did that, it could have sort of authored the experiences that you had related to some things bigger than yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah, and the time I sort of imagined I had felt God's presence or something like that just could have been the manifestations of my desire to feel God's presence since my imagination can create all sorts of strange situations. [00:18:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I just felt like lost some sort of reference point in normal reality that I used to have. (pause)

THERAPIST: And you notice but it's not like, it's not unusual with trauma to lose faith, to (inaudible) the world sort of (inaudible) of in a very good way.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:19:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, it creates this sort of amplified loss of worldview because I think with trauma, you lose the view you had of people and how you should approach tribes (ph) and then to also lose something that really used to be comforting and foundational. This idea that there was going to be another entire life and another chance for everything (pause).

THERAPIST: So everything (ph) have a better life?

CLIENT: The afterlife.

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah. (pause) So all that stuff crumbles?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's sort of a lot all at once and I think it's hard to build something positive back up-to lose all that at the same time. [00:20:01]

THERAPIST: Do you miss it?

CLIENT: (pause) Sometimes. When I'm in Kentucky, I miss it because I think my relatives are the type who really do take comfort from it. (pause) There is not, the term (ph) question, sorry. There is a lot of my friends were more tell (pause) and I just, I'm not really jealous of their belief in the Bible as the cause of the same sort of strange (inaudible) (laughing). I mean things don't always make sense. (pause) It just seems like such a crapshoot finding the right verse. [00:21:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) And there is nothing, it seems sort of strange to me that the girth of the field of literary criticism and biblical life haven't intersected. Moreover, there is no sense of the need to be rigorous and understand the text as a whole because that wouldn't sell the masses. I mean it's not totally defending (ph) to me. Christians don't, or religious people, everyone who believes in the text doesn't necessarily-

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There are people who do right?

CLIENT: Definitely, I mean it is such a minority of-

THERAPIST: Right, mostly academic text. [00:21:55]

CLIENT: Yeah. I think of all the belief communities that I have been in. It is striking how few people have read the entire text, even one. (pause) And yet put so much faith on the words and their ability to find the right word. And you know, that is why they talk about the power of faith and God's active power to lead you to the right thing because I think, the majority of people are not going to read a whole book about (inaudible). That's difficult (laughs) and contradictory.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You're in some part (ph)?

CLIENT: Yeah and some parts are pretty boring. (laughs) (pause) I mean it's very strange especially with my relatives. (pause) [00:23:20]

THERAPIST: What do you feel about your chances to be happy with out it?

CLIENT: (pause) I mean, I sort of suspect that I'll never really be as happy as I was when I believed and because I just don't really see anything good, (inaudible) I sort of suspect that 20 or 30 years from now there is going to be some sort of terrible environmental disaster whether it is a water shortage or chemicals get out of hand or some sort of horrible bomb or I don't know. There is some many really scary possibilities that statistically one of them is going to happen by the time that the 30-year mark hits. (pause) I don't really see the world as a narrative of growth or progress especially over the course of my lifetime. I mean just the cultural outcomes doesn't seem likely.

THERAPIST: Do you see it as decline or just as adirectional in a way? [00:24:58]

CLIENT: (pause) I mean I think you could look at it as a lot of sort of disjointed narrative of progress. I think people are, they believe in the narrative or progress and they try to make this happen but often environmental factors intervene and civilizations decline (chuckles) and then you sort of start from scratch somewhere else. (pause) And given all of the really powerful environmental interventions we are doing, not just in the country. It seems likely that something is going to go really wrong (laughs).

THERAPIST: (inaudible) somehow? [00:25:47]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean between cracking pollution especially pollution of water supplies. I wish I had money to buy a land with water rights, although they could just do something like in that movie where you take a connected water supply and just suck out everyone else's water if you (both talking) (laughs) Yeah, I don't remember the name of the movie but I actually wrote a feature when I was at the deal (ph) about water rights and how a lot of companies can actually occur (ph) and were going around to small towns in the US and buying up their water rights for way below market value. There is so few lawyers in this country who can negotiate a deal like that with full knowledge and so few surveyors who really know what a water supply is worth. It is such a niche thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's not some tiny rural community in the mountains that is necessarily going to find the people who really know and negotiate a settlement that values the (both talking) [00:27:02]

THERAPIST: So they were vulnerable and these companies took advantage of it.

CLIENT: Yeah and there is this other company doing that then trying to buy all the water rights and probably still is. The water rights that he can get his hands on in the southwest. And buying things that the local government had owned and their just wasn't really a potential agency sort of observing this in the way that you would imagine. You would think there was more control at the state or federal level that would look at this and see that there is someone getting a monopoly on their water rights and that wouldn't be happening.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:27:51]

CLIENT: (pause) That's one possible disaster in a much bigger puzzle (chuckles). Given that I imagine the roles in my lifetime I've had to sort of (inaudible) inevitable disaster now that there is no afterlife.

THERAPIST: I guess so.

CLIENT: (pause) I don't want to obsess over things that I'm not really even qualified to look into on any level. Like someone who can't really do math very well, I don't think I would exactly be the best water surveyor (laughs) going around seeing what these things are worth. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (both talking) would occur.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) If only. (laughs) I wouldn't need math. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs) Yeah, I guess that would work best.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. I would need a diviner (ph) (laughs) [00:28:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah I guess.

CLIENT: Yeah, still not qualified. (laughs) (pause) It seems like the road to happiness in the short term would be avoidance, not really thinking. Especially now that I have started seeing my grandparents in their old age and seeing what all the pain inherent in that stage of life. I think the more you live, the harder it becomes to look peacefully at the later years of life.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And lately, my aunts and uncles have been taking a lot of comfort and graces (ph) that say well I'll be reunited in heaven. (pause) And it would be really nice to believe that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:30:07]

CLIENT: That is probably one of the things that I miss most about religion.

THERAPIST: I would imagine that (inaudible) to come back.

CLIENT: Yeah. Not as much some people who, I think some people really want to think, you know my grandpa would go on to have this streets that are lined with gold (both talking)

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: They think it's pretty literal.

CLIENT: Yeah. Good shot.

THERAPIST: Thank you. (laughs) (inaudible) I'm still working it over there.

CLIENT: (chuckles) What do they call in it in basketball?

THERAPIST: 3-pointer? When it's further away. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. (giggles)

THERAPIST: Thank you. [00:30:55]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I was never someone who was sort of like, how all of the scorers (ph) will be felled (ph) when I get into heaven and all these assholes (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Which is awesome (ph) but sort of vindictive (laughing) surprising, but I never took that route.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (pause) I mean imagine that there is a time when you will be reunited with the people you care about and you won't have worries about well you know all the things we worry about like money trouble, and just not having a lot of time and imagining being with no worries, which I think-(pause) Sometimes, I look forward to having kids because I think they distract you from all of your existential worries (laughs). [00:32:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (chuckles) Sure. It also, (pause) it sounds as though you're (inaudible) broader feelings about things are mostly about bad news.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: And (inaudible) for distraction.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I just think yeah (ph). [00:32:59]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean there are some actual positive hopes. I think finishing my novel and getting it published would be a very genuinely positive thing that wouldn't feel like a distraction. I would like to get married. I would like to be close with my friends in DC. There are things that I think would add legitimate positive content to my life.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But as a narrative, it seems like a narrative of decline. (pause)

THERAPIST: I guess where we started, that there is (pause) (inaudible) terms like (pause) also pray about our stopping. I mean that it's (pause) a good thing.

CLIENT: Especially since I guess big (ph) things knowledge is so lopsided that the things that I learned about you (ph) have come out so slowly that the more time we met, the more I would learn and the less it would seem like I just know so little, even if I didn't learn concrete things. [00:35:01]

THERAPIST: What's it like to know so little?

CLIENT: Well since I came in expecting that for a while this is sort of like this is how it works but then it just got weirder and weirder. Like the more comfortable I started to feel talking to you.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I think there was a awhile where I was so afraid it wasn't going to work, not because of you just because I was feeling very vulnerable and insecure and not wanting to have faith in anything.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: But I didn't really let myself wonder where about what you believe, what your world view was, what your personal life is like, like all of these factors that you usually know, pretty instantly with people. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Right, sure.

CLIENT: But it was really like the more comfortable I got, the more I started to sort of wonder. (pause) [00:36:01]

THERAPIST: I'm still trying (ph) to understand why that would that would be your reaction to why-doesn't make sense (both talking) wonder about. (pause) It occurs (ph) to me what motivates this. For example, whether there is sort of questions about how well I could understand or relate to what you're talking about or whether I am relatively happy and at ease might be, that might be kind of a hopeful sign if I don't have vague (ph) enough for you as you said before or indication that that this screwy because I do have faith so-(pause) Yeah, I guess those are the things that occur to me but I don't know how you (inaudible). [00:37:46]

CLIENT: (pause) Because of many reasons.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) Is it nice to talk to somebody, I feel more comfortable talking to somebody about you (ph) don't know a whole lot in terms of personal detail? [00:38:06]

CLIENT: (pause) I guess, I think it's part of feeling more comfortable. I mean there are sort of reasons what I've mentioned wondering about your world view but also it became strange that I felt so comfortable talking to someone and knew so little and you couldn't feel comfortable talking to me. The disparity there was, became stranger I guess.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:38:54]

CLIENT: Not like actual, I don't, just in terms of when I am not consciously thinking, you know? (chuckles) It's not making a whole lot of sense here. I don't actually think it's strange because I know this is how it works, but it just feels stranger.

THERAPIST: Right, yeah. It made me think of (pause) like people you are in school with. It was such a big issue not to feel comfortable with them and it was-careful about who you told what and attentive to where they need to be coming from and what you could learn from them about them that indicated how safe it was to talk to them and from that standpoint, I can see how it would be really weird to sort of not have so many signs and signals about my background or things about me and yet to not feel so worried about things. [00:40:26]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean especially once I started to sort of-You know at first I viewed it more of this process but eventually I started to trust you as a person with insights and I started to trust your world view, which is sort of strange since I don't know what it is. (chuckles) Not technically.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:40:55] (pause) What things have you trusted about it? I suppose there certainly is an aspect of my worldview imbedded in things I say (pause) like the way that I, to go out with you or how you start feeling things. I mean they are kind of psychological models embedded in my saying (ph) of things. I mean I am not a, you know, you need to be praying more, that's why you're bad. Those are the different kind of model. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I certainly have concrete things to work with and I came in, I mean this sort of foundational thing you come in knowing is that, will this person believe in (inaudible) (laughing). [00:42:08]

Yeah, in the power of talking, the power of psychology, and you know there is certain field of texts that you feel like you sort of share.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: So it's not like, I have nothing to work with here. (laughs) I think just in the way you react to things and in the things that you put pressure on. There is a lot to deduce from that. (pause)

THERAPIST: No, definitely. I mean in that sense, you know sort of quite a lot about me in that aspect of my (inaudible) and things. [00:42:55]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It is sort of-Jeff is rubbing off on me, because I'm tempted to call it data. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Oh gosh. (laughs)

CLIENT: Weird. About you know, the manifestations. The social and intellectual manifestations of whatever all the other stuff that I don't know is.

THERAPIST: We should stop for now but we will talk more next week.

CLIENT: Okay. (inaudible) [00:43:41]

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