TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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CLIENT: It's much milder than my first winter here. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (chuckles)

CLIENT: My first winter was rough.

THERAPIST: They let us know that material (ph).

CLIENT: (pause) It's funny, so I don't know if I had mentioned this, probably not. But I was taking this weekly meditation course for about 12 weeks. I started taking meditation but just like reading books and trying to do it. One of those things that sort of seems like-I don't know. I always have things that happen during the week, where (laughs) like I'm doing things (inaudible). [00:00:57]

But someone in, I think our last meeting asked a question about the relationship between meditation and pok (ph) therapy and how they could sort of compliment each other. The instructor who was really great and down to earth said something like I know a lot of therapists, there are a lot of therapists in this area (chuckles) and they all love working with meditators because people are so aware of what is going on and how they look back on things (chuckles). It made me sort of self conscious because I don't think I come in and meditate (laughs) and of course I'm not a meditator since I just started in September. Trying to do that. I don't have a daily practice. I just meditate, I don't know I did it more before but now probably like 2-3 times a week. [00:01:59]

You know, it just got me thinking about the bigger picture of, the narrative of (chuckles) what I sort of come in and do every week.

THERAPIST: I see. (pause) Like whether it's the way a meditator would talk?

CLIENT: Yeah, or just like someone who has that ability to step back and look at the bigger picture and connect things from week to week in a meaningful way and have that awareness that we are supposed to be cultivating. (laughs) You probably would never guess that I'm meditating unless I mention it. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Let's see. I mean have some experience with meditation and it certainly wouldn't be easy for me if I didn't know to pick out the people I see as patients who do and don't meditate or practice. (pause) Yeah. [00:03:11]

CLIENT: Yeah. Have you been?

THERAPIST: I have not, no. I know a little bit about insedahera (ph) because I have a friend and talked to people a little bit about it but it's not a style I have much experience (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Some people speak very highly of it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean it has been helpful. Although it would be more helpful if I did it every day. (laughs) But no, it's a start.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:03:46]

CLIENT: Yeah but I've been thinking about the way I don't feel like I really have approached this like a meditator. It also got me to thinking how I haven't necessarily purchased a writer either which is sort of like not the point to come in and be a writer. (chuckles) I guess in both of those contexts, I feel like I sort of come in battened by whatever happens during the week and maybe that is what most people do, I don't know. But it just seems like, I just worry that I spend to much time, this that and the other happened this week. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I see. As in like, you've definitely been going about this the wrong way. (laughs) I haven't said anything, I just let you flounder. (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs) You're not supposed to say you're doing this wrong so maybe I was just supposed to figure out. [00:04:55]

THERAPIST: (both talking) thought there was a wave of (both talking) why wouldn't I tell you?(laughing) I mean, it wouldn't be so much to give you a bad grade but I mean why wouldn't I want you to know if I thought there was something about this or some way you were going about that I thought was not going to be helpful. I mean, in fact, there have been things that I have said, this seems like this is very important or very difficult to talk about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In other words, which I didn't intend and hope you didn't hear as a criticism but was sort of meant to brag (ph) something about the way you were going about it and what things were like for you and similarly if (pause) I guess two things here. One if there was something that you were doing that I thought was sort of getting in the way or making (inaudible). [00:05:57]

CLIENT: That's true. Now that you say that, I can think of examples of that. (laughs) I mean that's definitely true.

THERAPIST: Although it is also clear that you were feeling or it seemed to me that you were describing that you felt more that the onus was on you than on me. In other words, you weren't saying and I never fucking told you. You were saying it more like, I'm not doing this the best way or the way I should be.

CLIENT: Yeah, I sort of briefly talked to my friends about these, it sounds like a lot of people just sort of go in and start talking about something that happened during the week. That just seems to be an easy approach that is sort of sustainable because, I mean you know. Theoretically everything that happens during the week and things worth talking about ties into other things. I guess anytime I do something, I criticize the way I did it and question myself about it. [00:07:00]

I guess also just looking at my fiction writing lately as some artist call and meet online are coming up in January and so I may have been looking at the way I'm approaching writing and there are things that I just tend to have five different scenes going at once in the same page of the same word document just sort of going back and forth in a way that is habitual for me but also in a way that makes it harder to finish any one scene and seemly in a way that doesn't lead towards a sort of closure that I would like with my writing. And I always feel like my character flaws or whatever they are manifest in sort of all aspects of my life and so I was worrying is the way that I write the same way I go to therapy and talk about sort of different things when it would be better to take one narrative thread for a few weeks and not jump around so much based on what happened in the week. (chuckles) [00:08:17]

(pause) I guess I think of sometimes when I felt like we were sort of in the middle of something that was really thought provoking at the end of one session but by the beginning of the next session, already other people (ph) have happened that seem.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:08:54]

CLIENT: I mean-

THERAPIST: Well look, I mean (pause) I guess I have a few different responses to what you're saying. The first of which is and I know this will make you mad but I don't mean it in a critical way. You know certainly in parliten (ph) and other perspectives so much as it kind of works. Well, there are people who have some more hysterical styles and people who have more obsessional styles where, you just got a little more hysterical by which I mean sort of jumping around and in some ways a little more kind of impressionistic whereas other people who are more obsessional tend to be kind of a little more narrowly focused a little more tightly wound in a certain way and kind of up in very detail focused and so forth. [00:10:04]

So, each style has to do with, your style tends to sort of cope with things and airway (ph) things in different ways. I mean on one hand a technicality can different coping or avoiding in that although you stay on track, you can get lost in the details or you stay on track and you don't talk about what happens to come to mind, that are probably really important because that doesn't seem relevant right now. Whereas the more hysterical style, you can feel like Oh my god, I never really stuck with things and followed through with them in the way that I should or focused on some of the details or really you know kind of had more curriculum in a way. I was here. I was there. I was over in this other place to. So it tends to your style a bit more, which is to say you can do more. There is nothing that you need. Nobody gets through college or into graduate school without being able to be very detail focused and sort of perfectionist in that way. I'm not say that you don't have that but in general, you may be a bit more like on that side of things. I kind of feel also a little bit like you're kind of asking, well Josh, how did I do? [00:11:28]

CLIENT: (chuckles) Maybe. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Did I do this okay? Is this alright? Did I do this wrong? (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Did I mess this up? And that is an interesting question. Not one I'm going to answer directly.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: (inaudible) how you did. (inaudible) [00:12:05]

I wonder, I suppose what makes that important or which isn't to say that it's not important to everybody who is a patient like all of us in one way or another but what were (ph) you why right now and stuff like that. I mean clearly (inaudible). What were your thoughts?

CLIENT: I mean, I guess doing this was such a departure from my usual purchase of life. It was pretty surprising that I, well I mean given how bad things got, unsurprising. But it's my self (ph) even maybe five months before I started seeing you, if I told that self that I was going to start doing therapy for a long time, I wouldn't have really gone with it. [00:13:10]

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And I sort of went into in a way that was unusual for me going into things. In that I didn't really do it in as much of the achievement oriented way, whereas most things in life you're really supposed to and I approach them that way.

THERAPIST: Yep absolutely.

CLIENT: And it was just such a different type of experience. I mean even I think friendships can often be viewed in an achievement oriented way and am I really drawing this person out and getting to know them. Are we building a strong-you know you have sort of milestones that you get sort of reinforcement and so this is just such a different type of situation where you don't have reinforcement from the other person of how you are doing. [00:14:13]

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And you sort of really need to gauge milestones and (pause) yeah so I guess having this was a process that is coming to an end before I expected it would. I sort of find myself twirling around and wanting in some sense to finish into that model that I'm used to putting everything in.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Even though I know that's not, that it's not meant to be in that model.

THERAPIST: It sounds like there is something about probably anxiety that comes along with stopping and stopping maybe prematurely in a way. [00:15:08]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That leads you to want to, in other words kind of package it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's so

THERAPIST: This really feels terribly unfinished I think.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And many important (inaudible), I guess.

CLIENT: Yeah, I feel that way. I feel like (both talking) [00:15:41]

THERAPIST: Really that's quite a lot and I just feel like you've (ph) taken considerable risks and doing something that is not at all familiar and in a lot of ways very uncomfortable in sort of going through this process and me and being open about what you're thinking and feeling and how things are affecting you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not here (ph) (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I guess in a way, you know really as you've been settling into that, its time to stop.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah it does feel that way. (pause) Yeah, it's so counterintuitive in a way, because something that, you know people who are close to me tend to notice, like Jeff notices this a lot and so do my, the way I talk to people, I tend to be pretty calculating all the time (chuckles) not calculating like I'm trying to get somewhere professionally (ph) not that type but[00:17:16]

THERAPIST: Sort of a self conscious way.

CLIENT: Yeah. And just always have calculations going on in my head (chuckles) like should I say this should I not say that. (pause) And I mean sort of talking in different ways (pause) it's a sort of new thing that all of the sudden sort of stopped doing in a sense and I mean I talk to Jeff in that but I don't have the same sort of calculations going. So it's not (pause) I'll totally go back to only having calculated conservations with people. [00:18:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's sort of a strange thing for me to invest in given my normal approach.

THERAPIST: Yeah, (inaudible) (pause) I think it would be good if there was to figure out to continue although I don't know if that's possible. I mean clearly we haven't thought of a way so far.

CLIENT: I don't think it will be. Especially since it looks like I'm going to be in Oregon with my parents for awhile because I don't think the job that looked like it was going to work out is going to work out. [00:18:57]

THERAPIST: Oh no. I'm so sorry to hear that.

CLIENT: Yeah, I've heard for sure but I have a feeling that when they told-because the company was bought and I have a feeling that when they showed the higher ups my resume, they were like she's not qualified for this job. Which is totally true. I mean I don't make any sense for it.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) you can do it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean my editor wanted to take a risk on me since he worked with me but to someone who had never worked with me, I can see how I would be a totally illogical choice. So there is still a chance that I'll be able to get the job, a different job there later. Because they have this emerging coverage area but to get permission to get that started is going to take several months. So am I (ph) going to be in Oregon with my parents not making money for awhile. I just found someone to take over my lease. [00:19:57]

THERAPIST: So, when are you going up there?

CLIENT: Now, the 23rd I think.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's right, I confused.

CLIENT: Yeah and so then I guess I will be out there until I can get a job. Unless I decide to look for a job in Oregon until Jeff graduates.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I've decided to take it as time to work on my novel. Maybe I could finish and maybe someone would buy it. In which case, I would have some money to go to DC. The chances of someone buying it are pretty slim. (pause) Then the plane (ph) got (inaudible) to do readings and sort of get myself out there a little more. [00:20:53]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But yeah, being in Oregon is the least likely place where you continue (laughs).

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (pause)

THERAPIST: That must have been pretty disappointing.

CLIENT: Yeah, I was, I mean they haven't said no yet but they also haven't been encouraging. It's taking forever.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I assume they are looking for someone who is qualified and if I get it will only be because everyone else in town said no. (laughs) I also think maybe someone internally got pissed when I came in. Well, I've been here for so many years without leaving and my role is actually (inaudible). Why don't you promote me? [00:22:04]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I mean, there are all of these scenarios I have been turning over in my head. (pause) So even though I should have had in my head, you're really not qualified don't get your heart set on it. I mean

THERAPIST: Well they said they wanted and your boss said they want you and I mean it doesn't sound like you were (inaudible) the person who would be hiring says we want to hire you.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. I mean I've been thinking about everything I say afterward and when I quit. I could have (inaudible) and I did read a little bit to send my resume which may have signaled to them that I wasn't as interested as I said I was even though that wasn't actually I was still interested.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:23:01]

CLIENT: Am still. And I also sent my picture reading (ph) residency on my resume and that may have raised a red flag for them. It's hard to go through all of these possibilities and get anywhere because there are so many. My resume was sort of scattered at this point, which is not pretty. (pause) And I think there are other plans (ph) for recording (ph) jobs that I'm applying to but the thought of getting used to a whole new quicker (ph) culture and a lot of editors are jerks and getting used to a new editor sounds gross. (laughs) [00:23:54]

It feels weak not to be going for it anyway but the thought of going to Oregon and just working on my novel for awhile. It isn't totally terrible. I feel sort of burned out, which is sort of lame, it's not like I have been doing that much stuff. (chuckles) (pause)

THERAPIST: You've been struggling with stuff and you haven't been sleeping much and you actually have (ph) a job as I understand and what's going to happen.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, I mean with the (inaudible) it's just lame because I spent so many hours and got so little out of it but their technically a lot of hours on the set.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, it doesn't look like was done. (pause) [00:25:00]

It's sort of strange to be talking to the point where everything is so up in the air.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, maybe by next week at least, they will have said no to me. (chuckles) No, you can't have the job.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But still even in that case, I will sort of this paper (ph) working on the novel indefinitely and hoping they offer me the other job they talked about. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well (inaudible).

CLIENT: I don't know that this is that important but one thing that has been sort of occurs to me sometimes was all the professional troubles I've been having and all of that. Sometimes I feel sort of lame just because of the situation because this is a professional situation in a sense so it's like I'm talking about being lame about a job I'm doing to you like while you're being good at the jobs that you're doing.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: In the back of his head, he's like lame but maybe not putting into words. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I see. (pause) Is that something you've been thinking for awhile? [00:27:38]

CLIENT: Yeah. And it's not something specific you do to make me think that, it's just structurally you got your PhD and now have a successful career and I think your good at what you do and so structurally some time I feel a little bit self conscious talking about the troubles I'm having with my work. [00:28:01]

THERAPIST: Right to somebody who's at work, apparently working reasonably.

CLIENT: (laughs) I don't really think anything that could, its just a structural reality of the (laughs).

THERAPIST: Absolutely. Do you have other thoughts about my, I don't know, being at work or what that's like or yeah? [00:28:53]

CLIENT: I mean sometimes I'll become aware that randomly of god, how does he remember all of this stuff? Because that's amazing. I think about I wonder what his other patients talked about today or I mean there is a little in which I kind of can't imagine like talking to so many people every week. Being involved in that many peoples lives so I'm sort of aware of that although not, it's not like I'm thinking about it all the time when I'm here but.

THERAPIST: We (inaudible) stop right. We started at yeah. (pause) So we will talk more next week.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) bill some point with (inaudible) send it to you over the next week. [00:29:58]

CLIENT: Yeah and then I can get a check. Alright (inaudible) left.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: That's so sad. I will see you then. [00:30:17]

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