TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: The arch.

THERAPIST: How was time?

CLIENT: Good, good, thanks. Yes, it was nice. Hot, too hot.

THERAPIST: It’s going to be 90 all week.

CLIENT: Yes. That sucks for my yard because I’m not going to do a lot of weeding until the rain comes back so my weed whacker, that’ll take some stuff up.

THERAPIST: How big is your you’re talking about your backyard?

CLIENT: And my front. Yes, the sidewalk has some weeds growing out of it. Fucking sidewalk. I kind of want to salt the earth there, which is not a bad idea but with all the runoff that would be kind of a [inaudible at 00:00:26] kind of way because salting the earth’s so good; kills plants. Also boiling their roots and then salting the earth works really well. I got some weed killer for again Roth Weed Killer will destroy -

THERAPIST: Whatever’s -

CLIENT: whatever’s downhill, which is my neighbor’s yard and the bushes between our yards. Yes that’s the one real potential. I love those bushes; he loves his yard. I don’t want any herbicide floating downhill. So, I’m trying to work with Hank more. There’s a woman who said to me a while ago about that her Beagle, her dog he wasn’t too smart and I said no, Beagles are very smart but they’re assholes. She said yes, they’re really stubborn. And stubborn’s another word for stupid, in other words it’s very easy to mistake one for the other in a creature that can’t really communicate verbally and tell you why [inaudible at 00:02:02]. But here’s the communicative thought because I wasn’t very verbal, vocal rather, [sound] so what does that mean? And we just assume he’s saying I’m doing what you guys do; seems to work. You guys do this all the time. I don’t know what [00:02:19]

THERAPIST: I’m trying to put thoughts to words.

CLIENT: Yes. Is this what you guys want? Is this what we always do? And when he’s hungry, he’ll knock his food bowls around to get our attention. When I first had him, it was funny, when I looked down he was sitting on the floor, half on his ass, one leg out, staring at his water bowl which he’s rolled over to me. That’s pretty good. That’s pretty good. When Pepper has the Kong (ph), they both get a Kong (ph) and he finishes his first because his jaws are stronger, he’ll go to Pepper because he wants hers because she has hers. And so he’ll come whine at us. That don’t work. He’ll go whine at Pepper; that won’t work. He’ll try a couple barks at Pepper. That won’t work. Then he’ll go to the door and he’ll bark at the door. So Pepper freaks out and runs to the door barking, [inaudible at 00:03:28] back at the Kong (ph).

So, okay these things are smart; these things are smart. Yet, they just can’t seem to get other stuff.

THERAPIST: Kong.

CLIENT: So I started doing clicker training with him, been watching videos on clicker training, kind of do it with him. And I tried a while ago to teach them not to bark at the road, to teach them to be quiet on command. So once a day we’re supposed to just take the dog [inaudible at 00:03:54] that makes them bark, like the doorbell, ring the doorbell; when they bark, put them in reward mode; good for you. Now every time they do that and they bark then you start shaving the bark, you only reward for particular types of barks, like one [inaudible at 00:04:17] for clear bark; three [inaudible]. And then once you got them doing one loud, clear bark, you put a word to it or something, so you get them to bark on command. Once they bark on command, you start rewarding them to stop barking, so basically between barks. And Pepper just could not get it. She says whiff. I said no, that’s not going to work. Nothing. Okay, you know what? I put Hank down. Oh treats, nice. You want me to bark? Bark. Bark, bark, bark. Okay, too much barking. Bark, nice. Okay, good, so he got that. [00:04:52]

THERAPIST: So what do you use? You use -

CLIENT: It’s a clicker. It’s there for training dogs. So -

THERAPIST: So it just makes a click sound?

CLIENT: Yes, just a [click sound]. And it’s faster than doing that so the sound is the trigger. That’s the thing with this. What the click means is what you did was the correct thing and it rewards them. So, it’s been a while now and we’re getting frustrated with the time [inaudible at 00:05:21]. I’m going to try some easier stuff because he couldn’t get the not bark stuff. He said I could bark, and he was really bark, bark, barking for treats, let’s do this. And now I’m trying to do attention where they look me in the eye. You’re looking for that contact so you cannot You can say their name and they’ll look at you in the eye and that’s what you want. [00:05:40]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Especially with a Beagle.

THERAPIST: So you’ll say what? What would be the command for change?

CLIENT: Things like, he’s probably desensitized to his name by this point. So you say something like hey buddy and he’ll what, and he’ll look. It’s getting [inaudible at 00:06:05] better but I said okay I need to back it up because he’s still having tricks, trouble with the treat in the hand. One thing I noticed, treats in the hand, you leave the treat there. [00:06:05].

THERAPIST: Not go for it.

CLIENT: Yes, one [inaudible at 00:06:19]. So I need to back up for that part in order to focus on that where I get him to just [inaudible at 00:06:26] as soon as I leave the treat, I get the treat. Fine. They’re not too focused on how do I get that treat. I’m going to teach you but you first need to chill. But I’m trying to teach him that and he’s thinking treat. Bark. Fuck. No, it’s not bark. Bark. That’s not what I want.

THERAPIST: That’s interesting. Right, but it’s late and bark too much with the treat.

CLIENT: Right, he’s thinking it’s this, I know how to do this. I know this trick. I bark; you’re moving your hand, that clicker, you get a treat, I bark, and you give it to me. Yes, that’s one thing to do. But I was wondering because Gabriel’s really teaching the dog how to communicate, these are the things I want you to be able to do. And it’s easier I know Hank pretty well. As the dogs get older they start getting more independent. It’s interesting. So Hank will not often, if it’s middle of the day, he won’t start [inaudible at 00:07:18], he’ll go somewhere else, like yes, I was just downstairs on the carpet, thought it would be fun. Whatever. And great. Used to be he couldn’t he’d bark for me. He walks better now, as well, now that he’s older. [00:07:40]

THERAPIST: How or would he go off on his own?

CLIENT: No, he’ll he doesn’t do no. That’s way down the line.

THERAPIST: That’s way -

CLIENT: He knows wait. That means stop.

THERAPIST: Well that’s good.

CLIENT: He kind of gets it. Okay, yes. But sometimes we go [inaudible] when I was [inaudible at 0:08:03] doggie into the street. I don’t understand that. But he does know once we cross the street we’ve got to cross the street quickly. So he’s thinking okay let’s cross. So he knows that but I don’t believe he understands traffic at all or that there’s a central [inaudible at 0:08:22]. I don’t think he has any concept of that. You can’t let him off the leash because he’s a Beagle and part of the problem with Beagles is a scent [inaudible at 0:08:28]. It’s a real issue. They catch a scent and forget, hey, hey dog, Hank, dog, hey. Nothing. They just lock on and follow the scent. Follow the scent. [0:08:41]

THERAPIST: Oh is that right? And they block everything else out?

CLIENT: Yes, that’s what they’re bred for. So their focus will drive you nuts. And so he’ll do that and you have to walk up to him and tap him and he goes whoa and I say okay let’s get inside, and he says yes, okay, sure. So that’s an issue. So there’s only some much you can expect from hounds sometimes in terms of look at me. Once they get locked in then you can’t with the distraction so. And it’s possible you can. Once you can train him to do some things but nothing the dog [inaudible at 0:09:18]. Sometimes there’s going to be things your dog wants more than whatever you’re working on with him and that’s something you’ve got to work on. Well with the Beagle, I found this scent; I want to walk this much more than whatever you’re offering.

THERAPIST: Okay, yes.

CLIENT: Unless it’s [inaudible at 0:09:39] in which case it’s harmless and you can jingle it, he says oh fuck let’s go for a walk and he runs in, I put it down on the ground and say oh Lord. Motherfucker. But he knows about his leash and he knows where we keep it it’s on the back porch. So he knocks it over and says hey, we should go on a walk. Yes, you’re right we should. So more often now I’m trying to take him on walks once a day. He’s pretty heat sensitive, though. Today [inaudible at 0:10:13].

THERAPIST: He knows his limits, he knows his [inaudible at 0:10:13], he doesn’t knows –

CLIENT: Well I don’t know if he knows his limits; he reaches his limits. [0:10:15]

THERAPIST: He reaches his limits.

CLIENT: I guess it’s not just in the reverse pug (ph) season, which just sound awful. I think it’s wicked tired, sort of heat sensitive. Pugs are heat sensitive in general and he’s got it. He’s got scent [inaudible at 0:10:40] from the Beagle, the heat sensitivity from the Pug, he’s got the buck (ph) glands [inaudible] from the Pug as well. He’s got a lot of these sounds from the Pug as well, which is fine. He’s got loyalty from the Beagle like you wouldn’t believe.

THERAPIST: Yes?

CLIENT: Yes. Yes. One thing people agree on about Puggles, one guy put it really well, is that Puggles are really into their owners. You are awesome. Man. Gosh. I make more food for you because you love it. You take your love and put it in that special receptacle so –

THERAPIST: They’re devoted, huh?

CLIENT: Yes, oh yes, totally. Totally. He gets really excited when people he hasn’t seen in a while come by to the point where he’s just a Beagle, like open, not quite open, not quite. I’ve seen him open before but -

THERAPIST: Open?

CLIENT: Open’s something that Beagles do. It’s like a bang (ph). It’s like bang (ph), which actually is a particular version of Beagles, they’re just, it’s all open; they become a tube for sound. It’s the loudest, commands attention. When he did it, there was this bigger dog that was over, kind of a nippy dog. Not a [inaudible at 0:12:02] dog, another dog, she’s older, kind of bug-zap people. Certain dominance but not, doesn’t actually connect, just kind of nips. And Hank did not like that; he was really kind of worried about that. And so she’d come at him he just, he’d go as low to the ground as he could and charge at her and goes boo hoo, this sound that comes out and she’d bolt and run away and look a wreck. Back up. Hank would go do his stuff and she’d come back. Boo hoo hoo and she’d say aw fuck, it’s like that and he’s saying go away I don’t like you. So he was very clear about that. He does some similar sound but it’s more like super hyper excited like [sound] like he’s being stabbed in the heart when he sees someone he hasn’t seen in a while. [0:12:49]

THERAPIST: He’s excited.

CLIENT: Yes, or he thought you were dead. He super excited you’re back. He just figured you were dead. He sees Ida once a week it’s always like oh my God you’re back.

THERAPIST: This is the best.

CLIENT: This is the best. Oh my God. Let me put my butt on you.

THERAPIST: I wasn’t sure you were getting back, yes.

CLIENT: I wasn’t going to see you again but here you are.

THERAPIST: Sweetheart.

CLIENT: So sweetheart. So sweetheart. Loves kids but doesn’t understand that they’re fragile. He just runs right over and he’ll try sniffing and pushing his nose, and they’ll fall down and then he’s oh sweet you’re on the ground.

THERAPIST: Now let’s play more.

CLIENT: Yes, step on it. Now I’ll lick you and some kids think it’s funny. I don’t because it’s gross. But – [00:13:37]

THERAPIST: But he’s playing with them.

CLIENT: Yes it’s fun but terrifying like when he’s plaguing (ph) them. A number of months ago when she was over, she loves Hank. He was licking her feet and everything and she’s [up on her desk] (ph) laughing and she’s touching his face and he was licking her face and she was laughing and he was licking her and [inaudible at 00:13:37] takes her down. So he goes away and she goes [crying sound], reaching for him and he comes back and licking her feet again and he thinking this is the best thing. Then last week she’s over and Hank is like oh man you’re amazing and she’s freaking out. She’s saying oh no, don’t come near me. So we put her upstairs to take a nap and she puts her into the carrier thing she has to put on top of Ginny’s bed and she closes the door and she doesn’t realize there’s a latch on our door in our house that you have to click it shut. Hank runs upstairs, I hear a baby crying, -

THERAPIST: Now I want to see this baby.

CLIENT: Yes. So he busts in the door, jumps on the bed and starts licking her leg because he’s saying yea it’s you.

THERAPIST: Good times?

CLIENT: But she can’t get away, she’s strapped into her bed and she starts freaking out so we have to go up there and take Hank down and she’s inconsolable for awhile. But when Hank hears her crying he runs to the door like you need to get in there. He comes rushing to us, bark, bark, there’s a baby crying, let’s go. And I’m saying [inaudible at 0:14:49] super concerned. So he’s a good boy. [0:14:55]

THERAPIST: Devoted, loyal.

CLIENT: Yes. And I was –

THERAPIST: Affectionate too.

CLIENT: Oh yes. Extremely affectionate, extremely affectionate. And he sleeps right next to me every night [inaudible at 0:15:07]. As soon as there’s covers involved he’s thinking ah, covers, now we’re going to bed. Comes up by my head, puts his head down right here, right next to the covers, scoots under me, spins a couple of times before he calms down and he assumes the presence face on my ankle. In the winter I shove him down by my feet so his breath is towards my feet.

THERAPIST: He loves you.

CLIENT: He totally does, he totally does. And I had him when he was six years old. And I might have him another eight or nine.

THERAPIST: What’s the life expectancy?

CLIENT: A small enough dog, somewhere in the late teens.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yes, some Beagles live until they’re 20. Dogs can live –

THERAPIST: And he’s how old now?

CLIENT: He’s six. He’s got some time. Pepper’s, Pepper’s ten and Kylie is late in her teens. [0:16:07].

THERAPIST: Late in her teens?

CLIENT: Yes. As she gets older she doesn’t want to be in her crate any more. She says I don’t this is ridiculous. [inaudible at 0:16:20] on the outside, peed obviously, let him in there at night, peed at night, and you get kind of comfortable [inaudible at 0:16:31] it’s ten fucking o’clock –

THERAPIST: [inaudible at 0:16:34].

CLIENT: Yes, she says what was wrong with you? And Hank says, my friend’s the best because he gives me a treat every time. Except for Ginny who says loft doesn’t fake me out. [inaudible at 0:16:44] and he’ll stop. And she’ll hold up behind [inaudible] like I’m not going in there. She’ll pick up a treat like this is a treat. He says oh sweet a treat, and runs in and she closes the door, you’re not getting another treat. He says come on. So now he’s sort of this is a treat, he’s says no, no. So she picks up the box and says this is a box of treats and he goes holy fuck and runs in. But now he doesn’t because this is a trust thing. He thinks I don’t know; sometimes she gives a treat and he’s like oh, okay sometimes there’s a treat. Whereas with me he knows –

THERAPIST: Fred is 100%.

CLIENT: Yes, he says there’s a treat every single time. I like that; no problem, no problem. You got this.

THERAPIST: This guy I can trust.

CLIENT: This guy, this guy. And he knows other stuff. I try to teach the dog to sit down, be calm for me and Hank sees me getting food slams his ass to the ground absolutely still. Just ready. Unless he’s on his feet scratching at the refrigerator like come on, come on, get into the thing, I want to – which she’s supposed to learn by watching Hank. So she says come on, I’ll pour Hank his food in his bowl, take your food. I say here’s your food. And then she says let’s eat. So he looks at me, his tail wagging, and I say eat and he says fine. [0:17:58]

But I can’t get her to sit for it. She’s totally obsessed and sometimes you can get her to where her butt hovers off the floor in defiance. She’s like no, I’m not sitting but I look like I am. [0:18:14]

THERAPIST: Right, yes they might think that’s good enough for something or is she just defiant –

CLIENT: She’s got an attitude.

THERAPIST: She’s just got an attitude. Defiant.

CLIENT: I mean when she now, she doesn’t want to go in the crate at all. Usually we’ll put the dogs in the crate when we leave the house because we leave the house and they bark and howl where are you and they kind of freak out. Okay. We put them in the crate they look around the crate, this is all the space I’m responsible for; this is fine. But now it’s to the point where you’ll go to put her in the crate and she wouldn’t go; she’ll look at the bed. She’ll get on the bed, she puts her paws down and when you walk out of the room she stays on the bed. And I say okay she’s signaling she’s using the bed instead. Fine. So if we’re all in there [inaudible at 0:19:00], get on the bed, close the door and that’s fine. Now she says I’m just going to stay in the house but we go out the front door and she says I’m staying on the couch. I’ll pick up her crate no, she’ll run back down to the couch so I’m just going to stay here. And we said fine so we’ll go. She’ll bark a little bit. Usually when people pound on the door she’s freaking out. People pound on the door, bark, bark, bark, bark, total fear and long barking, when she’s alone in the house and we come back in, totally silent. [0:19:36]

THERAPIST: She might know it’s you.

CLIENT: Maybe but she doesn’t any other time.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: She’s always, if someone’s with her in the house and someone’s at the door, it doesn’t matter who it is –

THERAPIST: Even if it’s one of you two?

CLIENT: Yes, she’s losing her shit the entire time. And Hank’s thinking [inaudible] losing her shit now? Calm down. But Hank, though [inaudible at 0:19:56] listen to things. People [breaking the door] (ph) he’ll just sit down. Sit, instead of ruff, ruff. He’ll be quiet and ruff. And Pepper’s running around and [inaudible at 0:20:08] and we’ll try to contact her, stop her and she spins and dashes off under the chairs barking the entire time. And he has this thing called the fear trumpet. So it’s just a cough. You’ve seen Kongs (ph) before, dog toys? [0:20:24]

THERAPIST: What are they?

CLIENT: Kongs, kind of rubber conical things; three doughnuts, one on top of the other, essentially.

THERAPIST: Oh yes, okay.

CLIENT: Yes, they can chew on it. You can throw inside peanut butter or whatever. When people ever leave the house she freaks out as well so what I would often do is I’d pick her up before people would leave because she’s like if I’m being picked up I’m fine; I’m not afraid of the door. But what we’ll often do is say Pepper, go get your fear trumpet, that’s what she’s doing. So she’ll run and get her Kong, she’ll hold the smaller one in her mouth, there’s a hole, and she will howl through the Kong, which amplifies the sound. So she’ll run around doing that. [0:21:03]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: What the fuck are you doing?

THERAPIST: Brilliant.

CLIENT: No, no I say okay, so that’s really good. But lose some attitude, but really. She does really well on the doggy I.Q. test, which Hank does really poorly.

THERAPIST: Is there a Doggy I.Q. test?

CLIENT: Yes, it’s an interesting test. I don’t know how but it kind of gives you an assessment of – so they show him a treat [inaudible at 0:21:26] show him a treat, he doesn’t come. Put the treat on the ground, put the cup over the treat, see if he gets the treat. How long does it take him to knock over the cup? Pepper’s like fuck it, wham, treat, done. Whereas Hank was oh God, oh where did that treat go? He’s sniffing around the cup like oh it’s under there somewhere. The first time I gave it to him he failed; he never figured it out. The second time I used a lighter cup just to make sure it wasn’t [a thing] (ph). He’s thinking –

THERAPIST: You mean it wasn’t too heavy for him to knock over.

CLIENT: to knock over. And it takes him a bit but he’s like oh sweet, a treat. Second test, a treat, fished out, over it; get the treat. Pepper’s like okay, snarkle, snarkle, snarkle, uses her nose, things like that to get the treat. Great. Hank’s like oh God, oh okay, sniffs around it, kind of paws at it, tries to bite the treat through the thing. It’s crunching but it’s good enough; he rolls over with the thing in his mouth, crunching on the treat [0:22:38]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: inside the thing. And I say it’s not good, though. You don’t actually have the treat. He’s like this is good enough; this is good. And there’s one where the smaller dog and a dishtowel [inaudible at 0:22:58] blanket thing over his head, [inaudible] cover it over the head and count now long it takes them to get it off. Pepper’s like oh fuck, shakes and backs off; it falls off her back. Great. Hank, I put it over him he’s like oh God; he starts to spin, slams into a wall, he starts to spin some more so it slides down over his shoulders and he slams his ass [inaudible at 0:23:17] like I did it. [inaudible] but I did it though. I say okay, fine. I don’t know what to say about that. I mean –

THERAPIST: What do you think of it?

CLIENT: Part of me thinks it’s – he’s bad about things over his head; he’s always been bad about that. He’s not good about getting out of things. And oftentimes he gave up and he’ll start – he’ll [inaudible at 0:23:45] and whatever he is cloaked in, unable to see it’s a full sheet he’ll stare and start wagging his tail right there until you get him out of the sheet. Treats under a barrier. [inaudible] a barrier, treat underneath it, get the treat. If you get it out with your snout or [inaudible at 0:24:04], how soon does it take them to use their hands to get it out from there? Hank tried once, kind of bumped his hands, I can’t do it; sits down, looks at me and says I’m done. I don’t know what to fucking do now. I tried; couldn’t do it. Done. So James says okay so maybe he knows he can’t get his paw under there. That’s really stretching it, though. What you really have to do is he knows he can’t do it so he’s given up. That’s really what it – I don’t know. [0:24:32]

THERAPIST: Well it sounds to me, though that despite the fact that he can’t, he’s not the brightest of animals, you can’t help but love the guy.

CLIENT: Oh yes. You got to.

THERAPIST: Even in these moments when he’s not doing it right.

CLIENT: Right. He’s totally sweet and sincere the entire time. And what I can’t figure it out is if it’s really I can’t, I don’t know how to do this, this is really weird. But he gets the training so much faster. And Pepper just doesn’t. She’s just no, no, no, no, no, I don’t want to do that. [inaudible at 0:25:09] she knows how to do; she knows how to sit and wait for treats, she knows how to lie down, she knows how to do that, get in the crate, get up on the bed, whatever. She knows everything. She’ll dance for cheese, get up on her hind legs, spin around, or hopping around and spinning. That’s cute. Nobody had to train her that; that’s kind of a natural inclination so now we can get her to do it. But Hank’s just boom, I see a treat in your hand, you’re offering it to me –

THERAPIST: I’ll do whatever it [0:25:41]

CLIENT: Yes, because I’m going to get that treat. That’s what’s going to happen. Whereas Pepper’s give me the fucking treat, I don’t care. I say do the thing. I don’t want to do it, I want the treat, I don’t want to do it. I say fine, fuck. God, simmer down, for fuck’s sake. I’m a grown-assed dog. So I don’t know. I don’t know. So I’ll keep trying, see what I can get. See if I can get him to move the treat, see if I can get him to bark and not bark. And I feel like he’s much more trainable than she is [inaudible at 0:26:17] –

THERAPIST: Sounds like he’s totally – he’s a much more willing pupil or something.

CLIENT: He is, much eager to the point where you can [inaudible at 0:26:28]. I can be a good dog, good dog like you wanted. What do you want me to do? Which is great. Whereas Pepper’s more like I kind of got my own thing going on.

THERAPIST: Yes, she can take it or leave it.

CLIENT: She sure can, she sure can. I’ve got to get some food down at the restaurant. Ginny went to the Renn Fair this weekend, like she does every [inaudible at 0:26:57]. We’ll go to New York to the Renn Fair. It’s a permanent site, Renn Fair, because we [inaudible at 0:27:00]. It’s always right there.

THERAPIST: Is that right? And they just have things going on all the time?

CLIENT: Yes, even in the summer they always have Renn Fair’s going. So she goes once a year; she goes with Darcy and they have a good time. Since I’m [around the house] (ph) [inaudible at 0:27:15] I can never can shake the feeling that someone else is there. So I was kind of looking around, checking that all the doors are locked again.

THERAPIST: What’s – yes. Do you feel anxious?

CLIENT: Yes, sort of.

THERAPIST: Any sort of fantasies come on about who would come in or what would happen?

CLIENT: I don’t know, some person. Some person. And now my after more reading most of the time I think it’s time to get out of the house. [House is dark] (ph) the first thing you do? Get out of the house.

THERAPIST: Some danger? Do you feel – where is it?

CLIENT: Yes, in my room was always [inaudible] blocked or locked [inaudible at 0:28:09].

THERAPIST: That’s where that’s from.

CLIENT: Talking earlier today about how there’s nothing to be angry about or at, [inaudible at 0:28:27], there’s nothing to be angry at. There’s this, there’s a maelstrom of mental illness riding on the body of viciously abused child. And I said what would she be like? If not for the illness what would she be like? But then I think back to what would she be like without her power of abuse? That’s everything she is. But if she had neither her nature or her nurture what would she be? And there’s no possible way to answer that.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes.

CLIENT: So again, so I said who are you angry at? I cannot take responsibility for anything. It’s nuts. It’s nuts.

THERAPIST: Yes, and well what I sense is that there’s a lot of, whether or not it’s anger, there’s a lot of—you lived with a lot of stuff that is a residue of all that time. And that’s a maddening situation for you. Fucking being alone in the house, you can’t help but feel like somebody’s going to barge in just like you did back then. [inaudible at 0:29:49] you for that.

CLIENT: It’s true. Yes, there’s been a lot of stuff.

THERAPIST: It does.

CLIENT: Yes, but there’s nothing to be done about it. And the other times (ph) is not to engage. But the fact the doctor [inaudible at 0:30:17]. She actually tests things out like a good safe I am [inaudible] to use. That’s what we use on a chat.

THERAPIST: So she’s asked ? [0:30:24]

CLIENT: No it just G-chat. It’s in her Gmail. I don’t see the contacts the same way; it’s on the left side of the screen. My orders get stacked. That was also free and can do whatever follows through. She says I have but if he says we should use two tabs, he says it’s better. Who the fuck is he? And I talk to Temperance as much as his little sister and she says oh no; she says maybe getting engaged again. Really? She says yes. She’s dating this guy who’s got a pension. That’s a really important thing to have a pension. And she says from what I understand he’s just another freeloader like her. And so you get the freeloaders together…[0:31:14]

THERAPIST: How does she – do you know how she gets by financially?

CLIENT: I think she’s on disability. Whatever she says but clearly she should be on disability because she can’t do absolutely shit else. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Absolutely. But she should also be an outpatient.

CLIENT: Yes, she should but there’s no system in place.

THERAPIST: No, none at all.

CLIENT: I remember she took [inaudible at 0:31:46] once. A doctor prescribed [inaudible].

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yes. She ran out when I was there so she went to Dr. Sanders

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: And [inaudible at 0:31:51]. I said hi. She said how are you? I said I’m fine and how are you? She’s getting slurred. I’m doing really well, better than I have in a long time. She said I just took a [inaudible at 0:32:06] pill and I feel so much better. Cured my Bipolar And I said it doesn’t work like that. You don’t just take one pill and all the sudden you’re amazing. What you’re feeling right now is the placebo effect; it will not last. She takes to tears. No I really better now, I don’t know if I should take it anymore. But that was the thing, now she says oh yes, no, that’s dumb. [0:32:38]

THERAPIST: She wanted to be cured of all this stuff.

CLIENT: Well she wants to participate in conversations with me with all this stuff. She doesn’t actually wants to be cured. She wants to be seen taking medication and that oh yes, to be out of this place. But she has to get those prescribed and that’s kind of a pain in the ass. She’s got to go to the doctor, got to sit there, and she gets bored with that after a while.

THERAPIST: That’s right. They have no real meaning to – besides this kind of a fantasy.

CLIENT: Yes, this is her action.

THERAPIST: Yes, no I see what you’re saying. Like any other illness she’d want to concoct it.

CLIENT: Oh yes, well as soon as Kevin moved out the next day she was in the hospital. The very next day.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: With lung cancer. With lung cancer.

THERAPIST: Oh that bad.

CLIENT: Yes. She says I’ve got lung cancer. Yes, they found these things in my lungs. I said this doesn’t seem accurate. She said I told the doctor, I told the doctor, [inaudible at 00:33:42], keep looking. I said keep looking, I know there’s cancer there. I can feel it. And they said okay I got it, I can see it, there’s some cancer here. And I’m actually oh, those crack doctors. They couldn’t even see the cancer. She said so I’m not staying here; I don’t have cancer. Doctors thought I had cancer.

THERAPIST: Is that right? Turns it around. [0:34:03]

CLIENT: They couldn’t even see it; they couldn’t even see it. That’s all right.

THERAPIST: Now see and that’s how she took that one [inaudible at 00:34:10]?

CLIENT: Very similar, yes. She takes one [inaudible at 0:34:14] and she feels all better now. You just take one; I don’t know why they give you 120. There seems to be a lot in there. Probably it’s best if you feel bad again take one then.

THERAPIST: If she didn’t take that as a fantasy.

CLIENT: Yes, as needed.

THERAPIST: Fit into the fantasy. Delusion.

CLIENT: Yes, something she has to do every single day. Doesn’t matter it never happened.

THERAPIST: I think [inaudible at 0:34:41] every single day.

CLIENT: So often I don’t want to do it today. But no, I have to do it today or I’ll fucking explode.

THERAPIST: If she does not go there, she does not go to the have-tos.

CLIENT: No she does not. She does not. She does not understand those things.

THERAPIST: That’s a hell of a lot of anxiety though to be dealing with that at home, when you’re at home thinking about stuff. That’s not small. That’s not small [inaudible at 0:35:14].

CLIENT: What, me thinking about this?

THERAPIST: Well you thinking about the – you being anxious about somebody breaking into the house.

CLIENT: Oh yes, sure.

THERAPIST: That’s –

CLIENT: That’s no fun. I have weapons in those rooms.

THERAPIST: I can see why.

CLIENT: Not allowed to have a gun. Oh we won’t have a gun. She will move out. She won’t divorce me but she will move out if I get a gun.

THERAPIST: Yes but you’d do it just to give you a sense of safety.

CLIENT: Yes, but since I don’t know. I don’t want to own a gun.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: No. There’s a chance I could really blow and punching that [inaudible at 0:35:56] into the dropboxes.

THERAPIST: And do it yourself?

CLIENT: Yes. Guns are really tricky, though. You’ve got to get right in and up back here, up in this [inaudible at 0:36:13]. If you get that gone, then you’re dead. If you fuck up you’re with (ph). Shotgun in the mouth, the most sure-fire way to go.

THERAPIST: You know when you talk about this stuff I hear it out of this place with you living with this stuff day in and day out and how it is, it’s maddening to deal with. [0:36:38]

CLIENT: Yes and the thing I want most I think is to get through my life without suffering. That’s what I want, to get through my life without suffering.

THERAPIST: ‘And you only take mannitol, right?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: That’s coming on, you’re getting the lightest possible treatment I think.

CLIENT: Oh really?

THERAPIST: Yes. I mean the level of anxiety, there’s definitely anxiety in that set. People that are dealing with this stuff go on to help take some of the edge off. Really, you are bearing it out like – it’s like going through an operation with a little bit of aspirin.

CLIENT: [laughing] That’s great, that’s great. Doctor will ask me if I’m feeling anxiety and I’ll say no, I’m not feeling anxiety. But it’s just background noise.

THERAPIST: Because you’re used to it. In a way what I’ve been noticing you’ve been talking more and more about the anxiety. You’ve always been talking about it but it’s hitting me more that this is no frigging joke. [0:37:56]

CLIENT: Yes, I know that but for some reason -

THERAPIST: I’ve been feeling like I don’t know, you’ve been talking about the driving and all that stuff and how hellish that stuff is. It is like an analogy I’ve made about a metaphor going through surgery with a couple –

CLIENT: Mostly anxiety meds. [0:38:17]

THERAPIST: I think it’d be –

CLIENT: Something that’ll interact slow, mannitol?

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes. He should know how much anxiety this is because this is a lot more than just – anxious about –

CLIENT: Not just worry but other worry. That’s not close to it. I do not really want to keep coming back to Dr. Vaughn. I mean he’s totally fine but I see him every two months, 15 minutes.

THERAPIST: Yes, what’s it like?

CLIENT: He’s just kind of sort of how are things, how are you doing? Kind of like a chart I fill in every time I come in. Always the questions like is your mood better in the morning or day? Or I have thoughts of killing myself but I wouldn’t do it. I have thoughts of killing myself every day. I’m depressed once a week, twice a week. That sort of thing. I found I’m just as interested in fun activities as usual. It’s just meaningless now. I just go in, circle, circle, circle, circle, done and then he says you taking mannitol every day? Yes. Drinking any alcohol? Not really. How frequently? Anything else from the drugstore? I said yes, I have some Advil. I don’t know I don’t think he’s interested [inaudible at 0:39:53] 200 milligrams or 400 milligrams of mannitol daily and I go and fill it and I come back two months later. There was a point when this made a lot of sense. When I was –[0:40:05]

THERAPIST: Why does he keep it that frequent?

CLIENT: Yes, well I’m just – why do I have to do that? Why do I have to 400 works really well. I’m happy with 400 and [inaudible at 0:40:20] manic depression. Great. Four hundred. This is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. If it actually gets better as I get older then I’m fine with 400; I don’t want it to go up any more. I can’t get a recurring prescription going because every time they call to refill automatically they cancel it. No, they’re going to give him a hard copy and it’s always going to be a hard copy.

THERAPIST: For the mix?

CLIENT: Yes, he always wants to write it himself and hand it over and be really involved in the whole thing. The problem is the [inaudible at 0:41:05] broom handle. [inaudible] every two months I go there I weigh myself to see if I’ve gone up or down, it fluctuates, and [inaudible at 0:41:16] to go down and it’s a 15 minute appointment.

THERAPIST: Do you want a name of where you can go for a consultation and see somebody else? [0:41:24]

CLIENT: Yes. Do you know somebody? Yes.

THERAPIST: Yes. Let me make sure she’s got time but I think she does.

CLIENT: Where she located?

THERAPIST: In my old building. She’s actually in my old office. My very old office. She’s fresh. She’s an interesting woman. But she’s also an analyst so she’s not like she gets it. She gets psychotherapy, she gets what we’re doing, or she would.

CLIENT: That’ll be cool. I’d probably see someone else being more willing to sign off. Yes, mannitol works for you; take that.

THERAPIST: Or I think and also seeing if she could help you anymore.

CLIENT: With the anxiety would be great.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I was very much on when it was less medications, better medications, which is true to a degree but –

THERAPIST: I’m a big proponent of that. I’m the first to say that’s great.

CLIENT: I guess I need some anesthesia.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: It’s true, though. I do live with the constant anxiety. Constant.

THERAPIST: I mean it’s PTSD. It’s totally PTSD. This is what people talk about. You Google (ph) it like it’s no longer my I swim in it every day but this is what people are talking about.

CLIENT: [laughing] It’s hilarious. That’s so funny. That’s so funny.

THERAPIST: Yes, well what do you think?

CLIENT: I don’t know. It’s just all these things are so funny. If anyone had heard one of the things that she said or did they would’ve taken action.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: Just to be like oh yes, I had a crazy, crazy life. Really it’s insanity. I mean the things around you. Charles couldn’t even, he couldn’t put words to it. I said okay she’s totally crazy. It’s always okay for the mother to hit her son as long as it’s just in the face but never on the butt because that would be sexual abuse. And he doesn’t even know how do you react to that?

THERAPIST: I’m sure he’s never heard anything remotely close to it. [0:43:38]

CLIENT: Nothing. Nothing like that. His dad was a drinker. His dad almost killed himself in a car accident and he said well, now I won’t be a drinker any more. God forbid, I’m good.

THERAPIST: Yes, you were in the car with your mother when she was –

CLIENT: All the times, most of the times. Kevin was in the car when she flipped it, [inaudible at 0:44:05]. She was seeking attention because there had been some fighting with Bridget, or something with Bridget and she wanted attention. And she’s driving home with Kevin and –

THERAPIST: She misjudged it.

CLIENT: She misjudged it. It was a worse accident than we thought it was going to be. Flipped the whole car; she had to go to the hospital. Kevin was fine and he said I’m never getting in the car with you again. He said I’m done. Yes, so they’re in the hospital and Johnny says yes, she’s in the hospital, don’t worry. I said I don’t know okay. She’s in the hospital; I don’t care. Johnny said oh no she might die. I said that’s also fine. [inaudible at 00:34:10] over the relationship with her. It wasn’t until she cut off our mother that she actually cut off her ex-husband. [0:45:02]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: It wasn’t until she said wait a minute, no, you are completely insane. Everything about you is completely insane and I don’t need to question everything you’ve ever told me and when I do that compared to the life I’m living, then I can realize that this is not marriage; this is rigged. That’s what this is. And she got out in 10 years. I can stop it any time. I’m taking my kids and leaving the house. And her sister, her cousin Paris, Austin, her brother Justin, who’s her [inaudible at 0:45:45], just came to her house in the middle of the night, packed her up, grabbed her kids, left.

THERAPIST: Left.

CLIENT: Yes. As soon as Johnny said this is what has happened, I said yes, you’re done now. Take you out of the house. Yes. So that’s just funny about it. Yes, well let me know if she has time whatever.

THERAPIST: Yes, I’ll call her today and then on Thursday I’ll give you her number. I’m assuming that she’s got availability. And you can take her or leave her. If you don’t like her that’s fine.

CLIENT: No that’s fine. Totally. Are we out of time or is there more to do?

THERAPIST: No. And I’m gone next Monday.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I’m here Thursday, gone Monday, and then back again the next Tuesday. So I’m missing Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday I’ll be gone. When is, is Ginny back yet?

CLIENT: She is, she is. She got back last night. They got back late because traffic was awful but she had a good time. She brought back a bunch of strawberries and blueberries from the farm up in New York. Far too many strawberries for me to eat but I’m going to do my damndest. A lot of cool whip, whip cream, biscuits and eggs, strawberry shortcake; share my biscuits with them. And the blueberries, [inaudible at 0:47:28] of blueberries to eat. I put some in my Rice Chex and that’s great. [inaudible at 0:47:35] Have I told you about [inaudible at 0:47:37] next Monday? Maybe.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you don’t remember me telling you.

CLIENT: It’s possible. It’s possible. I forget people who are leaving all the time. I was really proud of myself for remembering Ginny was leaving. Usually I could not remember. [inaudible at 00:47:52] What do you mean? She says’ I’m going for the weekend. I say you’re what? This is a conflict so often so it’s often. For a long time I couldn’t remember until I started working on remembering Ginny’s going to be gone.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yes. Yes. It really took a long time. [0:48:13]

THERAPIST: It’s not like you suffer from memory problems in general.

CLIENT: No but when it comes to Ginny leaving – even sometimes she says okay it’s not like Renn Fairs. That’s this weekend. She said yes. In her case she’s going to be gone this weekend and on Thursday I said you’re leaving tomorrow and she said yes. Great. I knew that the entire time. It slips sometimes. I still don’t like that.

THERAPIST: Well it is unsettling when she’s gone.

CLIENT: It is, it is, especially now that I’m really alone.

THERAPIST: Do the dogs know?

CLIENT: I mean, no, this is more of them. They’re like you are the guy, where do you want us to be? Are you in the basement, we would like to be in the basement now. Are you’re in bed, we are both in bed; we’re all in bed. So it’s nice, it’s great to have them around. And I guess I don’t sleep on the couch like I often do because it makes me feel safer when I’m alone. They’ll sleep on top of me a lot of the times. They’ll curl up and sleep on top of me. It’s funny. Yes, well let me know about that lady.

THERAPIST: Yes, I’ll call her – actually I’m going to call her right now.

CLIENT: Great. Okay. I’ll see you Thursday.

THERAPIST: I’ll see you Thursday, yes. [0:49:55]

END TRANSCRIPT