TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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CLIENT: Underground railroad.

THERAPIST: Underground railroad, huh?

CLIENT: She’s gone but she hasn’t gone home.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah. So what are you doing? What’s the plan?

CLIENT: She went up to Vermont, and she’ll miss a year of school, but then she’ll come back and go to the 12th grade when she’s 18, or else when she turns 17, if she can come back and do it that way – even the lady over at the club said she should be able to speak for herself when she’s 16. I think they just kind of shuffled Deborah off to the wrong area.

THERAPIST: Deborah?

CLIENT: Yeah. Deborah went over with her to file for these things. [00:01:01]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I guess they filed a 51A, and that was to go down to the Georgia Police Department. Apparently they haven’t done anything about that yet. 51A is verbal abuse, mental abuse, any type of abuse.

THERAPIST: Oh, towards Darla?

CLIENT: Yes. This kid’s been sick since Tuesday, or Monday, was it?

THERAPIST: Yeah, what ended up happening? When did we talk, Monday or Tuesday?

CLIENT: Monday.

THERAPIST: What’s happened since then?

CLIENT: Well as I said, she was so bad on the phone, we just took up the phone, took the phone from her hand and just hung up. He hasn’t bothered to try back calling her, and they put her phone back on. He says, “That won’t last long.” He says when he goes to the airport – we said, we know you were going to send him into the airport. [00:02:10] I’ll just say she’s gone. I don’t know where the hell she is, Mitch. She’s gone. What can I say, you know? I mean, she did make friends up in Vermont, that they live right up the street from us in Cheshire. I could just say she was going over to her friend’s house, Rose’s, and she hasn’t come back.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well that will get the police over, unless he decides to just let it go.

CLIENT: I mean, I think when she’s 17 they’re not going to bother to look at – they’re not going to consider her a runaway.

THERAPIST: When does she turn 17? [00:03:02]

CLIENT: August 12th.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So when she’s 17 she’s legally okay to move, to be back?

CLIENT: I believe so. Deborah’s got all that information down. The less I know, the better off I am, you know?

THERAPIST: Okay, and where’s Deborah? Is she not with you?

CLIENT: Oh yeah, she’s with me.

THERAPIST: But—

CLIENT: Darla’s gone.

THERAPIST: Okay. Do you know what the plan is?

CLIENT: Yeah. Right now she’s at my cousin Mary’s, and then from my cousin Mary’s, she’ll be picked up tomorrow and go up to New Hampshire again, and stay up there. It’s not like I’m never going to see her, you know?

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:04:02] (inaudible). What do you think of all this?

CLIENT: I think it’s beautiful, you know? I mean the kid has not had one anxiety attack the whole time she’s been up at my house until she talked to her father on the phone. That’s what pushed it, and all I could hear from him – she was talking to him on the phone, so I picked up the other phone and listened in. All I could hear him say was, “I paid $1,400.00 for you to go in that place. I paid for this. I paid for this. I paid for your education all these years. I paid for your clothing, and all this stuff.” [00:05:02] I felt like saying, how many fucking times she came up here she had a fucking empty suitcase, and I filled it and sent her back with it, you know? I kept my mouth shut. “You’re going to abandon your family down here. You’re abandoning your father, your stepmother,” – he called her.

She goes, “One moment. You got that wrong. She’s not my stepmother. She’s your girlfriend.” He says, “What about your half-brother Luke?” She says, “I can write to him. I can talk to him. When I come down to visit I’ll see him, but I’m not coming home to live.” “Well I think you should face up to all your things you’ve done wrong. You brought this all on by yourself.” [00:06:01] Darla says, “Daddy, haven’t you been listening? I have been asking you for help for two years and you never fucking lent me the help.” She was saying fuck this and fuck that. Oh, my kind of kid. Right back to her father. So she was shaking like a leaf. She was crying. She went through a box of Kleenex. I was rubbing her back. It was like, this kid, evidently he doesn’t show any affection to her, doesn’t do anything alone with her anymore, because he doesn’t have time, all because it’s work, work, work, and all Eileen does is work, work, work, so those kids are left home alone to fend for themselves, and Eileen’s two daughters go with their real father, every weekend, the holidays, all that stuff. He’s got to watch (inaudible) Darla and James. [00:07:22]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Those are his two responsibilities. The other two aren’t his responsibility.

THERAPIST: Wow. So yeah, this is so much to get my head around here. I’m also remembering back to our conversation before my vacation about Deborah and your concerns. What kind of went on after that when she— [00:08:04]

CLIENT: She’s very good with Darla and she’s more or less very protective right now. When Darla’s crying on the phone, Deborah starts crying, because she gets all upset that Darla’s upset. Even Neal was there and he was crying.

THERAPIST: It’s a very upsetting thing between her and her father.

CLIENT: Deborah has been up to Vermont with Darla. The first time they went, it was four days they went up, then maybe four days the last time, and Darla stayed a week the last time.

THERAPIST: I remember you being sort of really worried about what was going on between the two of them and the Percosets and all that. How did all that – when they came home, what happened? [00:09:01]

CLIENT: They were home before it even happened. It happened before, that Deborah had stolen the pills.

THERAPIST: She was away and you were thinking about saying you were going to kick her out. What happened there?

CLIENT: Well I cannot kick her out with Darla there. It’s kind of hard. She’s been really doting on Darla, so I’ll have to give her credit for that. Maybe she couldn’t deal with Darla when she was an infant, but she can deal with her now that she’s a grownup. Darla says to her father, “You know, I’m not a child anymore, dad. I’m grownup. I can think on my own. I’m pretty smart, if you haven’t realized that,” she says, “with all my As I get and how I’m in so many advanced college classes. [00:10:10] She says, “All I have to take in high school is four courses. So she says, “I can talk (inaudible).” She’s very intelligent, knows what she wants out of life, she does want to go back to school, she wants to go to college. She wants to go to Lesley College, where if you’re a Cheshire resident, you get a $10,000.00, because they like to keep it going with the children in Cheshire, rather than seeing you go to New Mexico, or Amherst, anywhere. [00:11:04]

THERAPIST: So what do you think? If she stays up here, is that something you’re going to let Deborah figure out between the two of them?

CLIENT: Yeah. Deborah will have to get a two room apartment. Deborah’s going to have to get a job. She realizes that. There’s a lot going on.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Of course you know Naomi doesn’t mind having her around. Naomi loves it when Darla’s around, but we’re not going to keep her at Naomi’s. We’re keeping her somewhere else. [00:12:05]

THERAPIST: Why, because you think they’ll come looking for her?

CLIENT: Yeah. They can go through my computer, whatever, my phone.

THERAPIST: They’re going to find her, Louise.

CLIENT: I don’t know how.

THERAPIST: If they don’t find her, you guys are going to get in some trouble here, really. This is going to not be good. I don’t think it’s going to be good for Darla to do it. Something’s cooking between her and her dad and that is really clear, when she’s saying “I want to kill myself if I have to go back.” That’s a sign something is really going wrong. [00:13:00]

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Of course Heath will never say he’s at fault. I don’t think I should have to force her, literally drag her onto that plane, have her tied in, have the stewardess sit next to her so she doesn’t disappear, so she gets on that plane and into Georgia with him there picking her up. No. I don’t think it’s a good idea.

THERAPIST: That’s something that does not sound like the best way to go about this.

CLIENT: I don’t think it’s right for Heath to say she has to come back home and face her problems that she started.

THERAPIST: Right. That’s not going to be the answer, the way to handle this.

CLIENT: I mean, you know, he can’t do anything until what, 24 hours, 48 hours? [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: When is she due back? Tomorrow?

CLIENT: Darla?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: She’s not coming back to my house at all.

THERAPIST: When is she due back to Georgia?

CLIENT: Tonight, 9:30 tonight her plane is supposed to be leaving.

THERAPIST: He plane’s going to be leaving tonight.

CLIENT: At the airport. So I have between now and 9:30 to think of something to tell Heath.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well I can tell you the way I think this might very well shake out is that they will start pulling people into the police station and asking questions. They’re good at what they do. They figure out -

CLIENT: Well nobody in the building knows where she’s going.

THERAPIST: I tell you, that’s one way to go about it, and maybe you can hold up under intense questioning. [00:15:02] This is all they do for a living.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know.

THERAPIST: They’re good at it, and they’re good at finding out where people are. Maybe that’s a good thing for them to kind of you guys are doing this out of some place of real concern for her.

CLIENT: I shouldn’t have to talk to (inaudible).

THERAPIST: The problem with it is, Louise, the person that ends up on the side of doing something like this ends up being the bad guy.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Heath looks like the good guy. He’s got the daughter taken away from him. They tend not to look at the people who did the quote unquote “criminal act.” That’s the key problem here with the plan. Now no one’s going to stop you. If you do it, you do it, but I’m wondering listen. Right now you’re feeling like the best move for her welfare is to not go home right now. [00:16:09]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That seems like a reasonable enough thing, you know. She’s got a place she can stay.

CLIENT: I think I’m just going to say, Heath, listen. I’m not sending her home. Do what you have to do, Heath, you know?

THERAPIST: I think something like that’s going to work more in your favor, being up front about it, and trying to say, “Listen. How about you give her some more time up here?”

CLIENT: I don’t feel like sending her back is in her best interest.

THERAPIST: Something to that effect that doesn’t seem to get legal things going, because at the end of the day he’s got parental rights and he’s going to be able to – whether or not he’s in the right emotionally for her well-being, the cops don’t care. [00:17:10] They’re just going to take the side of what’s written down in black and white on the paperwork. Playing it by the book and saying, “Listen, we really feel like she’s not ready to go back. Something’s cooking here. How about just giving us some time to figure out what’s best?” If you’re able to talk with him, have him be involved, and if you’re not, try to find somebody who could talk to everybody and say, “What the heck’s going on here? Darla is wanting to commit suicide or is threatening suicide so she doesn’t have to go home. That’s trouble.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And if that’s the case, she needs to be taken care, and she needs some help. [00:18:02] The other thing for Darla is being on the run is not going to be – hiding out is not going to be so great for her either. I mean it’s not – maybe it’s better than the alternative of her just going down there, but there might be a better way than those two options, and listen, you, as the grandmother, are in good standing with the cop. Legally you’re just trying to look out for her best interest. You heard her say she’s going to commit suicide. Anybody would be worried about sending her back. You don’t want to do that. How about let’s diffuse the situation a little bit and have some time to figure out what’s best for Darla?

CLIENT: I would say, “Listen, Heath. We were all set getting ready to go to the airport, and she said if I take her she’ll turn around and walk off the plane.”

THERAPIST: Exactly. [00:19:00]

CLIENT: So what do you want to do?

THERAPIST: “We’re scared and we don’t want to do that, and we’re scared that she might do something crazy.” Is it a direct flight?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Direct flight. Yeah, but say, “Listen. She’s not feeling right to do this right now.”

CLIENT: I’m afraid she’ll slice her wrist. What medications I keep out are my tranquilizers, and my vitamins, and a lot of them you can overdose on them.

THERAPIST: You’re worried enough that—

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m worried she’s going to take my pills and OD. What do you want me to say, Heath?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Don’t – make sure it doesn’t sound judgmental to Heath, and I don’t think that’s your point. You just want what’s best for Darla.

CLIENT: Right. [00:20:01]

THERAPIST: You’re not trying to take his right to be her dad away, but you’re concerned about her wellbeing, and you know, that’s a good grandma.

CLIENT: He wasn’t even going to bring her back to his house. She was going right to the grandmother’s house again, and Darla doesn’t like Nana Margie at all, which I don’t blame her, because she’s kind of an asshole. But yeah.

THERAPIST: Tell me, has Deborah talked to Heath or Pat since she’s been up?

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: How’s that going?

CLIENT: It was going pretty good with Pat until Deborah mentioned that Darla didn’t want to go back home.

THERAPIST: What did Pat think about that?

CLIENT: “You’ll have to talk to Heath about that.” So when Deborah did call back and asked to talk to Heath, Pat said he wasn’t there. [00:21:01]

THERAPIST: And so what terms are Deborah and Heath on?

CLIENT: They did talk the other night, and he gave her a lot of shit about Darla. “She’s causing all these problems herself, everything was fine, then she broke up with her boyfriend, and that has a lot to do with what she’s doing. She texted him 200 times the other day.” Which isn’t the truth.

THERAPIST: Okay. But they’re not yelling at each other, Deborah and Heath? They’re not getting pissed at each other?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:22:02]

CLIENT: Well he’s getting pissed at Deborah.

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: She’s putting all these things in Darla’s head.

THERAPIST: Oh, she’s putting?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Listen, it sounds to me like you’re trying to think of the responsible thing to do, and she’s saying she can’t come home now. Let’s give it some time and figure out what’s the best thing to do.

CLIENT: Yeah. Poor (inaudible). I mean, I don’t ever want to see her like that again, and I don’t want to get a phone call saying that she’s tragically committed suicide again.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right. That’s worrisome.

CLIENT: Darla says, “Nana, you’ve been spending a lot of money. Why don’t you spend some money for my funeral? Because I’ll be dead.” [00:23:01] No matter how many times she said that to her father, it went right over. “You come home and you solve your problems.” How can she? He’s one of the problems. Heath says, “We’ve been laxed with the punishments with all of them. We’ve let them pretty much do what they want to do.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. It would be good to get some help for her.

CLIENT: He’s got help set up for her when she comes home.

THERAPIST: Well the thing is that she needs help now, and she’s scared to go home or whatever.

CLIENT: Why haven’t I taken her for help?

THERAPIST: What’s that?

CLIENT: He said, “Why haven’t I taken her for help?”

THERAPIST: Up here? [00:24:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. Now if I take her to the hospital, will they keep her there, or will they send her into Newton, where there’s the children’s place?

THERAPIST: I don’t know. I mean, that would be only – you only want to do that if she’s suicidal and you thought there was a real danger. One thing you can try to do is check with the Amherst Youth Guidance, Amherst Guidance Center. Let me see if I can actually look that up for you and get a number, because they deal with these kinds of things all the time.

CLIENT: She wasn’t even getting legal aid help, and she should have got a lawyer from legal aid. [00:25:01]

THERAPIST: I would do that as well as to protect yourself for what you’re trying to do, which is essentially protect the best interest of her.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Here’s the number. 617—

CLIENT: 617.

THERAPIST: 354—

CLIENT: 354.

THERAPIST: 5555—

CLIENT: 2275. That’s the Amherst —

THERAPIST: Amherst Guidance Center. I think they have – I think they deal with stuff like this. It’s a place that has a very good reputation. I mean, I haven’t personally dealt with them, but I know people who work there who are really good, and they really try to work with people around what’s the best outcome? [00:26:04] Let’s get the kid’s welfare in mind. Also it’s going to protect you, and Deborah, and Darla, and you are taking steps to make sure you look like you’re doing the right thing, which you’re wanting to do. You’re wanting to get her – at the end of the day, she needs help, and I totally understand the impulse to just keep her from Heath and this being one way, but I don’t think Heath – I mean, who knows? I don’t know anything about these situations, but it seems to me that you’re trying to act – he gave permission for you to see her. He trusts you with her. You’re saying you’re concerned about her welfare if she comes back. She’s told you that much. We need to figure out something else. I’m not comfortable putting her on a plane. That make sense? [00:27:04]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And the other thing is if it’s decided that she goes back somehow, then there’s a lot more involvement from authorities. It’s not just her being scared as hell to go back. Who knows what’s going to happen?

CLIENT: True.

THERAPIST: You’re not the only family to be dealing with this kind of thing, and it’s a tough situation, and a good thing to do is to get some help from people about trying to help everybody out.

CLIENT: And Rhode Island has no jurisdiction over Georgia on going after her or something? I don’t know.

THERAPIST: What’s that mean?

CLIENT: It means whatever Georgia has down, we can’t argue with it. I guess – I don’t know. Everything was done here at Providence court about her going to Georgia.

THERAPIST: Yeah, overall custody, but who’s the legal custodian, that’s true, but in a situation like this where you’re just trying to protect the welfare of a child, they’re not talking about getting her home on time, necessarily. I don’t know. I’m not a lawyer, but it sure as heck would seem like something that you’re trying to figure out. [00:29:06]

CLIENT: I mean I could go to the Cheshire Police Station and ask them what happens.

THERAPIST: Of course. I would stay ahead of it. You don’t want to get in a position where you’re getting questioned and all that crap.

CLIENT: Right. I don’t want them banging, knocking my door down with a battering ram.

THERAPIST: That’s a whole world of – you don’t want to – you don’t have to. You shouldn’t be. You’re not a guilty party. You’re trying to protect her welfare.

CLIENT: Yeah, I’ll do that when I go home, go to the police station.

THERAPIST: And Providence – I’d just tell them the situation, tell them what you think, and if you need to – they might have some ideas. They might be able to help. [00:30:05]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I’m sure they deal with this stuff all the time. Maybe a more extreme example is people go to a grandparent’s, or an aunt and uncle’s and say, “My dad’s drinking all day and I don’t want to live with him anymore.” They go to the guidance center and try to figure this all out. Their job is not to be punitive and get people in trouble.

CLIENT: Yeah, because she needs to see someone. She needs to tell someone exactly what is going on, and of course it’s a matter of he says, she says, they say, you know?

THERAPIST: She needs some help, and her relationship with her father is intensely troubling, and she’s got stuff with her mom to work out. [00:31:04]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s a lot on you, Louise. Another thing Heath says, “What are you going to be, like your mother, live off your grandmother? Spend enough for your grandma to support your mother. What’s she going to do, support you too?” Where does he get this shit? It’s not his money.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that sounds like it’s really nasty, and that really sounds awful for both of them.

CLIENT: I said Darla, how about you elope and then we’ll get an annulment. (laughter) [00:32:03]

THERAPIST: Oh what, she can legally marry at 16?

CLIENT: Uh-huh. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Is she emancipated at 17?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t think they emancipate her anymore.

THERAPIST: Like (inaudible), she doesn’t have to be under the custody of a parent or guardian at 17? It can be 17 or 18. I don’t know.

CLIENT: They said that when Darla was old enough, she could talk to the judge herself. The judge they had didn’t want to bother talking to Darla, and who was the judge, but the one Deborah and Heath had 14 years ago. [00:33:02]

THERAPIST: This was in what court?

CLIENT: Amherst, but supposedly the court that she went to was providence, Winthrop – was she sent to the wrong courthouse?

THERAPIST: This happened recently?

CLIENT: Just Monday.

THERAPIST: So they went to a court and got in front of a judge to – what did they say?

CLIENT: Deborah was the one that said everything, because the judge didn’t want to hear from Darla at all. The judge went through the whole thing. The judge denied it.

THERAPIST: What was she trying to do? Get temporary custody or something?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Why did they deny? Do you know?

CLIENT: No. (pause) [00:34:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s a ways away, her birthday.

THERAPIST: Listen. You’re doing – especially if you check with Cheshire Police, and you do get her some help, that will mean you’re trying to take care of this. You’re worried about her wellbeing and I mean, you know, you’re trying to get her some help because you’re scared about her going back down there. I think you really are.

CLIENT: I’m trying to do – I don’t care for Heath’s best interest. I’m trying to do what’s best in Darla’s interest.

THERAPIST: That’s right. [00:35:01]

CLIENT: As I said, this kid has been so happy go lucky, you know, with everything, that she hasn’t had one anxiety attack or anything except for the night she talked with her father, you know?

THERAPIST: And when he was saying, “You’ve got to come home”?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And she requested to stay longer, is that the idea?

CLIENT: She didn’t want to go home period, ever.

THERAPIST: She didn’t want to go home.

CLIENT: I had to give her a (inaudible) to calm her down that day, that night.

THERAPIST: Was she taking any meds herself? Was she ever on any meds?

CLIENT: No, nothing.

THERAPIST: Yeah, because this goes beyond just the custody stuff. [00:36:03] This is about what’s really going to be the best for her the rest of her life, too.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: There’s the short term what to do right now, but there’s also this longer term of what’s going to be in her best interest. Should she transfer to school up here and finish out? If so, where’s she going to live? Deborah’s got to figure that out, but getting that going and seeing if that can really happen is important.

CLIENT: Yeah, Deborah’s going to have to see – she’s got no money to pay for an apartment, even if she goes to housing. She’s got no money to pay them each month.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: The only thing I could do is put in for a two bedroom apartment and say Deborah doesn’t even live with me. [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: You can do that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you could say Darla is living with you?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But why can’t you say Deborah?

CLIENT: Because that would be three people in a two bedroom apartment. If I got a three bedroom apartment, it would cost me more money.

THERAPIST: So one bedroom and two bedrooms go for the same?

CLIENT: Yeah. I wouldn’t have to pay that much difference.

THERAPIST: Okay. You can get a three and Deborah could get a job.

CLIENT: That probably wouldn’t even go up on my rent because I’m down the totem pole for my rent.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: In fact almost everybody got an increase in their rent except for me. I didn’t get one. Stayed the same. [00:38:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. It’s a lot to take on.

CLIENT: Thank the lord I got Botox injections today.

THERAPIST: Headache?

CLIENT: Yeah. I’ve been getting a lot (inaudible). He says you’re stressed. I says, hahaha. (laughter) Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: It will help to get some help.

CLIENT: I said, listen, my ceilings aren’t even that high enough that I could hang myself.

THERAPIST: You need some help. You really are overwhelmed.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Listen, anybody would feel that way, in over their head.

CLIENT: I can’t concentrate. You just can’t do anything, you know? [00:39:02] It sucks. It really does. All right. “She’s had this planned all along, that when she went up there, she was never coming back. Her and her mother planned that a long time ago.” I said, okay. They planned this two years ago, Pat? I says, I think not, Pat.

THERAPIST: So they’re suspicious of all that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, if they were, what does that say?

CLIENT: Yeah, you know?

THERAPIST: What does that say about how Darla’s feeling?

CLIENT: I don’t think Deborah can think that far ahead. [00:40:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah. When she had the empty suitcases, what did you make of that again?

CLIENT: I would buy her all summer clothes and school clothes, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. They are really angry with Darla, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Why did she move to—

CLIENT: The grandmother’s?

THERAPIST: In the first place?

CLIENT: That’s where Heath took her when she got out of the hospital down there, the behavioral place.

THERAPIST: Where did he get that idea from?

CLIENT: He didn’t want to deal with her. Pat doesn’t want her around her children.

THERAPIST: What a mess, yes. She needs help. [00:41:06]

CLIENT: When they go to the beach, Darla doesn’t want to go, she stays home. When they want to do any family things, Darla doesn’t want to go.

THERAPIST: So she’s not even staying with Heath —

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: When she goes back, what would she do, stay with Heath or—

CLIENT: Right to the grandmother’s.

THERAPIST: How long has she lived with the grandparents?

CLIENT: This time around, probably a couple of months.

THERAPIST: She lived with the previously?

CLIENT: When Heath first went down there, when Darla -

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, right. They had lived there for a while.

CLIENT: Until he met Pat, then she had to share her room with two other kids. [00:42:02]

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, I remember all that. Okay. So yeah, that was since the hospitalization, she’s been living with—

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What’s it like for her over there? What does she say it’s like?

CLIENT: She doesn’t like it because she doesn’t like Nana Margie.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess Nana Margie gives her a hard time too. They’re going to turn a perfect daughter into a basket case. [00:43:02] “I think it’s all just because her and that boyfriend of hers, they had sex.” Well if they had it, they had it. What can you do? You know?

THERAPIST: That they had sex?

CLIENT: I don’t know what that would have brought into the thing. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well you know, it seems like there’s an opportunity here for her to really get some help though, and get something going for her that feels more – that starts to address some of this stuff, and you know, clearly whatever’s going on down there, she is not feeling good about, at all. [00:44:05] She’s looking for some help.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And understandably turning towards you guys to do that. I’d listen to what she’s saying. She needs help.

CLIENT: She doesn’t want to go back to school there. She wants to start school here.

THERAPIST: She’s going to be a senior next year, or a junior?

CLIENT: Senior.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, if she ends up staying up here, she can go right away. Why would she wait a year?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. He’ll fight me tooth and nail.

THERAPIST: If it’s for a month, it’s hardly a fight. He doesn’t have much – she might not have much say after she turns 17. [00:45:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: When is a child emancipated? In most states it’s upon turning 18 years of age. However in special circumstances, minors can be freed from their controlling guardian by – yeah, it’s 18. She’s got one more year, not a month. Let’s just see if Georgia’s any different. [00:46:02] Yeah, so you’ll want to get some help. Yeah, 18.

CLIENT: 18 in Florida too?

THERAPIST: Looks like it, just from this site. That’s the whole reason, unless she’s married.

CLIENT: (laughter)

THERAPIST: The process for a minor to become emancipated by court order, the minor must be 16 or 17 years old and parent or guardian must file a petition explaining why the minor is seeking emancipation. A court will remove the disability of non-age if the petition indicates the minor is a mature character, will be able to provide for his own food, shelter, and other basic necessities. Okay. [00:47:00] Yeah. So there’s legal stuff at play. The last thing you’d want to do is – I just don’t want it to be—

CLIENT: Now why would I have to go into Amherst Court? Are they the only ones that do probate? Does Revere Courthouse – there’s a courthouse in Cheshire. There’s a courthouse in Falmouth. There’s a courthouse over there.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but is Amherst the only place where the probate court is? I don’t know. It might be, but maybe there’s another one. I don’t know. I think there might be – it might be difficult to do through the court without having some sort of mental health kind of piece in play here, where you’re – you’re concerned about her mental health, and emotional wellbeing, and if you just had – if you had her see somebody over there or talk to somebody over there about what to do. [00:48:23] They’re going to try to help you.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It will help her.

CLIENT: Something’s got to be done.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m so glad I didn’t take her up to meet Justin. [00:49:00]

THERAPIST: To meet Justin? Who’s that?

CLIENT: (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Oh, why is that?

CLIENT: Because she used to like to slice her wrist and all that, good old Justin. Now he wears completely all men’s clothes, has a men’s haircut.

THERAPIST: Are you worried at all about talking to somebody, like the Amherst Guidance Center?

CLIENT: No, no.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Not at all, if it’s going to help my granddaughter.

THERAPIST: That’s the aim. At this point it’s not as if you’re trying to say, “Heath, you don’t have legal rights to her. It’s more that trying to do what’s best for her.” Frame it that way, and that you’re worried about her. [00:50:02]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It might settle him down a bit to say, “We’re going to get her some help, find a way to help her and figure out what she needs, but it’s not hopping on a plane and facing her problems, today. That’s not going to be an answer.

CLIENT: Definitely not. Sounds good to me.

THERAPIST: Well Louise, what an adventure. So listen, it would be good for us to talk again. Why don’t we – just for next week, I can’t meet next week in person at this office, so we’ll find out a way to talk over the phone. [00:51:10]

CLIENT: (inaudible).

THERAPIST: That’s right. Then if we want to go back to meeting every week, we should talk about it, if you still feel like that’s something that you can manage.

CLIENT: Hopefully I’ll be having surgery in September.

THERAPIST: So for next week why don’t we (inaudible).

CLIENT: (inaudible). [00:52:02]

THERAPIST: What if we talked at 3:30 on Tuesday? Can you do that?

CLIENT: Yeah, the 22nd?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. Then we’ll be here in person on the 30th.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well listen. You’re doing a good deed for her, to be doing all of this.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, she knows that. [00:53:01]

THERAPIST: It takes a hell of a lot for you to do all that stuff for her.

CLIENT: Especially at my age.

THERAPIST: This is not some easy visit of a granddaughter coming up. This is a whole, intense, crisis. When crisis happens, it’s always good to get some help you can trust. You’re one woman.

CLIENT: I don’t trust them down in Georgia of getting her anything.

THERAPIST: You’re worried about her. Okay, Pat. Give me a call if anything else—

CLIENT: If I’m in jail and I need to get bailed out, I’ll call you. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Okay. I don’t think it’s going to lead to that. Okay.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT