TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I understand.

THERAPIST: OK, so you're...

CLIENT: Just through, I believe, January. I'm only going to be coming in because you got my message?

THERAPIST: Yes, on Tuesday, I did. OK, so it'll be the next couple of Tuesdays.

CLIENT: Basically until the end of Februaryuntil the beginning of February.

THERAPIST: Beginning of February, right. I'm just trying to figure if there's anything else I can offer you.

CLIENT: It's OK if you don't or be honest. My plates can be so full that I may just need just the downtime.

THERAPIST: All right. Is that better for you?

CLIENT: I think for the moment, yes.

THERAPIST: OK, all right. If that changes and you want to try something, let me know.

CLIENT: Absolutely. (inaudible at 00:42)

THERAPIST: But otherwise, no, I understand. So the next couple of Tuesdays you're out. And this time is still good for...

CLIENT: Oh yeah, it's just that they want you to get a little extra work done and it's a creative thing that I am actually trying to do so (inaudible at 01:05), which is nice. I could really use the money because, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's great.

CLIENT: Slugging through things (sighs). It's funny because right now my husband has a really heavy work schedule, which is kind of weird because he almost never works. So he was out till reasonably late last night and I'm reading PDS (ph) because he's taking some sort of ethics course that they have to take or something like that, so there's, like, all this stuff. I suppose these kind of things usually happen after somebody said, "Oh, you didn't tell me I wasn't allowed to fake data" or something like that, you know. Yeah, so that's been a lot of, you know, time on his hands.

But because he came home the other day and he's like, "So, you look like you have something to say." I'm like, "The Internet is boring." (laughter) And it's totally true. I'm actually to the point where I mean, I can find some things to kind of to do, but there really isn't I think this is partially (inaudible at 02:36) but I'm actually predicting this right now, I'm calling it right now, that people who are tech-savvy are finding the Internet boring and by this time next year it's going to be significantly less use.

THERAPIST: OK. I heard it here first.

CLIENT: It's just because content and, like, all this other you know. It's sort of like some of the other things that are (inaudible at 02:57), like, then, you know. But for me at least, you know, as much as I'm exhausted and I don't really want to get out of the house, I'm definitely, like, you know, wanting to spend less time communicating with people that way versus, like, you know, in person, that kind of stuff. I really feel like (pause) not that I'm really wanting to do much of anything but I am definitely feeling the desire to want to definitely prefer analog versions versus, you know, digital versions of the same text, you know. Partially it's just a strain (ph) but it's (inaudible at 03:45) other things too. I just feel like I'm just I think the point is that I had, like, this utilization (ph) when I went to I don't know if I mentioned that I went to a movie for the first time in, like, five years, recently.

THERAPIST: I think you may have, yeah.

CLIENT: OK, I haven't been to a movie in five years. But the reason I went to that movie is because my mother really wanted to see it. It was Mother's Day. It was the Star Trek reboot. She wanted to see him the guy, Zachary Quinto I guess...

THERAPIST: One of the leads in the movie?

CLIENT: One of the leads in the movie. We, like, kind of she heard my friends tell stories about him. He's an honest to goodness kleptomaniac. I don't really like, she would hear stories about the guy who became Spock and she's like, "I have to see the movie about this guy is an honest to God, like, kleptomaniac." This and that, like, hearing (ph) stories about this kind of stuff. [00:04:56]

And I think that she was much more interested in the concept of this more than the actual movie, but we went to see this movie. That was, like, five years ago. Probably more than that at this point. But we went to go see The Hobbit.

THERAPIST: This is you and Mike?

CLIENT: Mike and I went to see it. Actually, she went too. We went to a dog friendly one, which is kind of a weird thing that they had a, like, bring your dog night.

THERAPIST: I had no idea.

CLIENT: We thought that would make you be able to socialize with other people, but no. Nobody wanted like, I thought that, like, bring your dog headline (ph) would be, like, a social thing.

THERAPIST: You see people in the park walking their dog...

CLIENT: I talk to people, like of course, it's a movie, so it's hard to socialize. Anyways, one of the things that I noticed and I actually asked other people about this afterwards to find out if this was just, like, a weird phenomenon people were actively using their phones at the same time as watching their movie. Like, checking, like, Facebook. Like, I was around it and it's really obvious because I haven't been to a theater in a long time. It's really dark so when someone turns on their phone it's really bright, it's really obvious. And I could see it. It was almost like fireflies going on everywhere.

And I thought this was such a weird phenomenon that I actually talked to people at work and other people that I just knew and asked if this is, like, normal. Apparently it's completely normal. Like, everyone I spoke to said, "Oh yeah, I can't watch TV just by itself. I have to do something else at the same time. You know, I'm often, like, on Facebook or I'm doing this or I'm reading an article," and a couple of other things. And I realized that I occasionally do that too. I throw something on the television, that I'm working on something else. And I just realized, what the fuck? I am really, you know, I am dumping all of this information at me, as much as possible, and I feel like, you know, unless I'm, like, slightly overwhelmed I'm not getting enough information. That's kind of bullshit. [00:06:48]

And, like, if I were to more in the movie, from the distraction point of view, but also, like, the fact that people have to, like who gives us a you can wait two and a half hours to update your Facebook status. I don't do Facebook. I have a serious thing against Facebook. But, you know, or whatever they're I can't imagine what they're doing is so important than a movie. And this has been in general sort of something that's been on my nerves for a while now but I've just realized that I don't like that behavior in me either. Like, the first time it was only the really tech people I would be around. There would be a dinner and they'd be, like, using their phones at dinner. I'm like, why don't we all just sit separately since, you know? But now it's getting to the point of being kind of extreme. And I think I'm kind of over it now, which is kind of a problem because I work for Apple computer. [00:07:48]

THERAPIST: Right. (laughter) We'll be going to Debra (ph) Unplugged if that...

CLIENT: No, no, just basically making the interactions quality versus a period of time because, like, it's very numbing. It's very, like, very, very numbing. And I just feel like sometimes I'm just...

THERAPIST: Well, I guess the way you're describing it makes it sound like there's a kind of almost, like, anxious or addicted or obsessional kind of quality to it, where it's not as though it really actually enhances your experience much to be updating Facebook or whatever and watching TV or a movie. It's just kind of people are so sort of, I don't know, like, compulsive (inaudible at 08:35) or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's so behavioral and it reminds me a little tiny bit about, like, my first time I ever was a TA. I was an undergrad but I got the special TA job and there were people feeding their virtual pet during a test. And that kind of, like, for some reason, really weird do you remember those little virtual Tamagotchi things?

THERAPIST: Tamagotchi, yeah.

CLIENT: And I thought that was such a bizarre thing that someone would stop everything, root (ph) around their backpack to get something. I thought, like, at the time I mean, I knew what they were but I was thinking, OK, someone has, like, a beeper. There's some sort of emergency going on, you know.

THERAPIST: Right. Tamagotchi's hungry.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I remember that was, like, a onetime thing and the horror of it just made everything stop. But I was like, it's a little bit like that. And I'm not saying that I'm completely against that. You know, I was at a performance over the holidays and I understood the girls that were next to me that were like they wanted to get a picture or something and this and that, you know, because it was kind of a special thing. They were so young and they didn't really know. Like, this was, like, their first time actually being (inaudible at 09:39) fine arts and so they didn't really realize that you don't really spend time, like, doing pictures of yourself at the theater, but OK.

THERAPIST: Whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I thought it was kind of sweet. And I explained a couple of things to them and they were pretty nice girls. They just were never raised to understand what is and is not proper behavior for something like that.

THERAPIST: [ I think that's it] (ph).

CLIENT: And that kind of sucked not so bad. They're really trying to commemorate the event, as opposed to spending time, like, Twittering about what's going on. And it's just like I'm not saying that I'm' against it entirely I just feel like on some level that I really feel like the type of human interactions are getting more and more removed from real personal interactions. And I'm not judging anybody else. Well, maybe I'm judging them but I'm not saying they should pay attention me, at least. But I'm definitely saying that for me I need to really find a way to really stop doing that. Because I even see myself doing that [at work] (ph) or Mike and I will put (ph) some documentary on and then I'll grab my iPad and I'll get some work done while doing this and that, you know. And it's different when, like, it was school work or it's real work and I'm putting that documentary on just to sort of have something interesting in the background. And it's like, you know, "The beautiful ocean and the shark." Like, this is not something that's riveting, if that makes sense. This is something, like, every once in a while... [00:11:05]

THERAPIST: Because it's supposed to be your primary activity, that kind of thing.

CLIENT: Yeah. But it isn't just, like, you know, noise to cut the silence or anything like that or just something nice surrounding. A lot of times it's like you must be doing two or three things at once. And not only do I think it's not helping me keep myself and I'm a person that does a lot of multitasking. But I don't think it's really helping me multitask. I think what it's doing is just making everything a little bit more numb so I don't have to think about stuff, you know. And I don't like that. And for some people it might work but for me I think it's really, you know, like a little much, you know.

THERAPIST: I think also a part of this is kind of missing human interaction.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I do. I really do. It's not even just that but because of the fact that certain things that I used to be very good at have become very awkward because I have been missing that kind of human interaction. Does that make sense? Like, learning to have conversations that I would normally have or having those kind of interactions I would normally have... [00:12:16]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you're kind of out of practice.

CLIENT: Out of practice, yeah. Right now I am taking on some special projects for one of the new managers and I am really needing to get a lot of approval because I keep on going back and showing her this because I can't tell from e-mails or from vague, like, things whether or not this is really something she likes and I really I feel like I'm acting very foolish and very needy but I really just need to get some body language, because I barely know her anyways. But, like, feeling like it's a really awkward thing. But I really like saying, "Hey, I really want you to take a look at this in front of me," you know. And of course, she's a millennial so she doesn't even talk on the telephone. So she thinks it's a little awkward that I'm like, I just need to, you know. I sort of I (pause) intellectualize it and that's what I do a lot of times when I'm really anxious about something. So I said, "Well, what I'm actually doing is because I want to see this. I'm looking at seeing how your eyes are going across the screen. There's a lot of non-verbal things about the way you take it. Other than I like it, I'm taking in to" I mean, technically it is but I'm really not. Actually, although I have learned about how people process information, I'm not looking to see how her eyes track this thing. I'm really just trying to, like, look... [00:13:34]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you're trying to get an impression.

CLIENT: Getting impressions. A real micro impression, as opposed to something that has, like, emojis and other, like, cheesy like, yeah. And so, yeah. That's kind of like a it's an interesting, like, dance to try and reclaim my real human interactive life, you know. My friend and I still very regularly not very regularly but at least a couple times a year write each other letters with ink and paper. We're very much into stationary. Both of us have done the combing through looking for better pieces of paper kind of things. So that is kind of our stick (ph). But a lot of the other people, when I do that, they think it's kind of weird. And I hate to tell them that thank you note that was handwritten, yes, it was delivered to you but it wasn't for you. It was for me. It was me taking a moment to sort of contemplate what my feelings were about this, you know. The preparation, I sit down, I have you know. I haven't used them in a long time but I have beautiful fountain pens, I have great paper. And sit down and think about it. "Oh, this is really great. I really love this and it was really wonderful to see you." I mean, yes, it is going to you but it's really about me. (laughter) It sounds weird, but it is. And just a few of my friends are like this.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 14:54)

CLIENT: Yeah, it's very ritualistic. She uses the term fetish not like a modern term but the way that they used it when they described different ritualistic things, like smoking.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 15:06)

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't like that word because...

THERAPIST: Because of the sexual connotation?

CLIENT: No. It's actually more along trust me, I use a lot of sexual connotations all the time to refer to things that are non-sexual. It's more, from a girl who invented the word "missile porn," it's more about the fact that I see it almost more like yoga. To me, I think it's actually more spiritual than that. You know what I mean? So I don't like to use that word because I think it makes it seem very earthly.

THERAPIST: Well, it's interesting because I think the original or the earlier you may know this more than me use of, like, fetish objects was associated with religion.

CLIENT: I was going to say, Native American, yes. But most people, if they know anything, they associate it things related to, you know...

(crosstalk)

CLIENT: Yeah, slightly more (inaudible at 16:05). But to me I see it as more it isn't even the actual physical ink it's all about the preparation. It's all about the whatever. It's a weird thing but it's something that I've always loved, which is why I think that some people thought of me as being very fancy for a lot of things. But it's actually just the fact that I just really enjoy beautiful handmade things sometimes, you know. So, you know, that and I had the luxury in my life of being able to do things that other people couldn't. so, you know, I was the girl that had the Tiffany stationary. For our wedding actually, you know, that kind of stuff. And although...

THERAPIST: Did you do thank you notes and stuff that way.

CLIENT: Yeah, I did them. The thing is, I didn't want engraved stationary because I think it's fancy I was fascinated with the process of it. When they did our invitations I actually went up to New York and I spent time with them. And it wasn't because I was, like, somebody's rich girl, like, doing this. This was actually because the people let me up there and, like, see the place and how they engrave them and all this stuff because I was genuinely nerdy about the craftsmanship about things (ph). And so I think that they although I haven't bought anything in years and years and years, I still have, like, all the phone numbers and e-mails and ends (ph) for the people there because I was, like, the only person who ever wanted to come up and see how the stuff is made. You know what I mean? And they thought it was fascinating, that there's this girl who's getting married and all these other things who just wanted to see how they etched, you know, and how they engrave it. [00:17:43]

And so it's not even it's hard to explain. It's very physical. I mean, and I have talked about the fact that I often, when I'm building things and doing things with my hands, I actually do feel better. Although I work in a technical world, building the circuits physically is really, really key to me. And this is part of it, you know. And part of it is, like, literally doing, like, some physical thing. And so I think that even more so, like, the more and more I'm getting more removed from the physical actions of life, the more I've been feeling really sad, if that makes sense.

THERAPIST: Yeah, do you mean I would imagine mostly because of the fabrication of everything, but partly because of your illness?

CLIENT: Partially, yeah. It's a little bit of both. And I'm not saying that I have to physically have the objects. I'm one of the few people who believe that a picture is good as actually owning something, a lot of times. And many times in my life, like, I loved something but I have to get rid of it so I took a picture of it. And I'll look at the picture and I'll be fine. I mean, that's OK for me. My China's in storage. I occasionally look at pictures of my China. Sounds weird, I know. But I have come across people who, like, are very sentimental. Not to the point of hoarding but are so sentimental they can't get rid of, like, ticket stubs and things like that. I'm OK with scanning that stuff and letting it go. That doesn't bother me. But the act of doing something with my hands, sometimes the act of creating is really important and I think that sometimes I get a little stir crazy without it. [00:19:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah, sounds very kind of grounding and gratifying.

CLIENT: Very grounding. Doesn't mean I'm very good at it. I sewed a button on it and because of certain dexterity related things, I mean, it was the world's worse button being sewn on a coat, like on Monday. But it's the act of doing something that is real, you know. And I think that this has been going on for a long time but it just sort of came to a head this week and last week. I'm realizing that I just I'm not saying that I'm completely becoming a (inaudible at 20:07) in any way, shape or form, but I think that I need to sort of make these things more meaningful, you know, and not just for the sake of whatever. And that's kind of hard. (sighs)

THERAPIST: You mean it's hard to find things like that to do?

CLIENT: Finding (ph) that but also getting other people on the other end of buying into it, you know?

THERAPIST: I see, like to appreciate getting your card.

CLIENT: Yeah. Not just that. Even, like, hey, let's go to paint night. Let's go do this. Let's go do that, you know. I think that's just one of those things where the interactions, even it's not necessarily in person but even just a little bit video or something, you know, feeling like I got, like, some sort of real world attachment. Because it definitely does for a person who, you know, has lived this life much longer than other people of my equivalent birth year have, you know, [this starts] (ph) to get to be a lot, you know.

Part of this I mean, at least some of it is (pause) I don't know. Like I said, it's been a lot. I just feel like I'm very...

THERAPIST: It sounds like this must reflect some, like, inner sense (inaudible at 21:37) with things.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Feeling maybe a little more energetic. Is that true?

CLIENT: Not necessarily.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 21:45) energy now?

CLIENT: It just basically being that I'm not sure if it is energetic as much as feeling like, at the very least, the things that are very passive aren't necessarily making me feel good. I'm going to try and, like, fake it till I make it with the energetic thing.

THERAPIST: I see, OK. So it's more like...

CLIENT: Well, I mean, this doesn't work but it doesn't necessarily mean that I've any...

THERAPIST: You're feeling a bit numbed out by the sort of online stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And appreciating that more RL (ph) kind of stuff is probably (ph) better.

CLIENT: Yeah. And (pause), like I said, it's been sort of a weird week. I'm always (pause) a little too candid about my something I said this week, also that I think that (pause) I kind of regret, but yet every word I said was true. And so I don't know if you know who Aaron Swartz is.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 23:01)

CLIENT: OK. You know recently he passed away, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah. So what I know is he was about 26. He did something, like, important on the Web.

CLIENT: He invented RSS.

THERAPIST: Oh, he invented RSS?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh, OK.

CLIENT: I still want to kick him over that and he's not even alive. You don't call anything really simple and have it not be that simple. He invented Reddit also. He founded Reddit.

THERAPIST: Oh really? And he committed suicide recently?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And he was being prosecuted for downloading stuff from JSTOR?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Those are the thing that I know. [00:23:40]

CLIENT: So I was asked, because I do know him. I did know him, sort of. I knew him peripherally. You know, what was my opinion on this. And I was a little too candid. I still stand behind what I believe on this.

THERAPIST: What'd you say?

CLIENT: I said basically that Aaron was one of those people that if he wasn't the center of attention all the time he would get so amazingly depressed that he would get to the point of being kind of suicidal, unless he was getting, like, 100 percent positive all the time. And so it doesn't surprise me at all that, like, you know, that when things weren't going his way and he didn't get the media attention he wanted that he did this. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if he did this specifically and didn't expect to actually die. And I didn't mean to...

THERAPIST: Do you know what he did?

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: Do you know what he did? I don't.

CLIENT: To kill himself, you mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't. I could find out because I, like, know his significant other sort of better than him. But I do know that he this is not his first attempt. I know that he has been chronically, chronically, like, had problems with depression all of his life and I do know that he was like night and day. When he was getting attention, like, not just attention from one person lots of people though he was on top of the world. And when he wasn't, like, he was self-destructive to the point of, like, sometimes self-mutilating. And so, like, this is I was a little candid when asked about that by some coworkers and now I'm kind of a callus bitch. [00:25:19]

But it's very hard because it's, like, I [have to] (ph) explain. This is one of those things though where, like, I know you guys see this as from the window of the media, those people turning this, but he probably was going to do this anyways. And it seems kind of to me like I had a very hard time explaining. And I shouldn't have. I should have just said, "It's a shame" and just, like, walked away. I should have never said anything. I still stand my beliefs. I believe that he was, at some point or another, going to actively really try and kill himself for attention.

THERAPIST: I get it. Your concern isn't sort of your belief in what you said but whether it was...

CLIENT: It was appropriate.

THERAPIST: ...tactful (ph) to just drop sort of (inaudible at 25:58).

CLIENT: Yeah. More or less that's why he passed (inaudible at 26:01), you know, because a lot of people at work were trying to get time off to go to this protest and this and that about this. This is like the attorney general's fall to his death. And I just really felt like that was not true. You know, even before he was thought of I had, like, you know, had a connection to the hacker community and he was yes, he has a really brilliant mind but, you know what, you have to be kind of careful with that kind of stuff, you know. And I just feel like (sighs) I feel like when it's front stage (ph), that if you're super, super smart the rules don't apply to you or, like, behavior. And I just sort of I felt really embarrassed and almost, like, not wanting to interact with certain people at work right now because of me saying this off the top and sort of seeming like a callous bitch who doesn't understand, like, you know, this kind of thing. [00:26:59]

And so I'm trying to decide whether or not to try to make it better by saying anything or just pretend this never happened and see if it's glossed over, you know. And so, it is a situation where, like, I knew more than most and maybe I am sounding a little bit callous about it but...

THERAPIST: Where did you know him from?

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: Where did you know him from?

CLIENT: Oh, from basically various different online communities from nearby. I knew of his girlfriend, who oh gosh, I don't even know how to explain this. She was one of those people that, like there isn't even a word for it but there are, like, girls who hang onto people that are smart and they sort of drift from one to another.

She was one of those people that always just finds brilliant people and sort of, like, attached her life to them and somehow got people to pay for her lifestyle. I don't necessarily like her. I don't necessarily condemn her. I just think it's an interesting groupie concept, much like bands. But it's just, like, one of those things where I refuse to get emotional involved in this kind of thing because I had been around for, like, various different hissy fits in the past, you know. And I don't know. I'm starting to doubt. Maybe that makes me a bad person for really feeling, like, super, super upset and distressed about this whole thing, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like you've always been, like, sort of respectful of his talents but kind of critical him.

CLIENT: I just don't like people who play drama games, you know. And at the risk of sounding extremely callus, it caught up with him, you know. And, you know, I mean, I think that rocking the boat for the sake of rocking the boat is not necessarily the right thing to do. Unfortunately, I think it was terrible because JSTOR had trouble for months, you know. Lots of people had inability to access to these articles that needed them for their jobs.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: There was a tremendous destruction service that people don't realize.

THERAPIST: Oh, all I knew was that he downloaded a bunch of stuff and wanted to post it for free and it had previously been sort of, you know, paid content.

CLIENT: It is paid content. It was (inaudible at 30:14).

THERAPIST: But that's all I know. JSTOR actually shut down for a while?

CLIENT: Well, what happened was that he tried to do it. He was a fellow, which is even funnier. (laughter) (inaudible at 30:26) to this day. When I first heard that, I felt totally shocked. But, yeah. But he had tried to do it through there but there's cap limits.

THERAPIST: I see. Not enough bandwidth or something.

CLIENT: Bandwidth and stuff like that and then a couple of other things. But then he was basically at MIT in a telecom closet with a terminal trying to (inaudible at 30:46) download these things. And the problem is, is that a lot of the things he did to get all these limits screwed with JSTOR. And they were not like, for a long time they had a lot of trouble getting themselves back up because of things, like, basically being triggered. You know, basically things about things, for example, you're only allowed to download this much for the state. So he basically rolled back dates to be able to do this or do all these other things that tricked the system.

THERAPIST: So he sort of like fucked it all up to...

CLIENT: Yeah, to get what he wanted.

THERAPIST: ...and allowed himself to download a lot of it. And these are, like, a pretty large collection of academic databases that obviously people need articles from all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah. And everything from, I guess I think that MIT's, everything that they got pulled off of, like, everything from the domain got pulled from JSTOR. And then, like, in general they had tremendous problems with things, like, because there's when there's these errors were like, "Oh, you can't download an article that is dated before the date that it thinks that it is." You know what I mean? There's a lot problems with dealing with this.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It sounds like he create a big mess.

CLIENT: It's a big mess. I mean, they didn't press charges at all but it did create a big mess and, you know, I just feel like that's the wrong way to go about it. Whether or not, you know, he honestly did believe that anything you pay with your taxes you should be able to access for free and whether I mean, I kind of a little bit agree with him, but either way that's the way to go about doing it, you know. And so...

THERAPIST: Not the best way to (inaudible at 32:22).

CLIENT: Yeah. But I really feel like (sighs) I feel like I just need to avoid, in general, like, any discussion of this with other people because those people are very, very sympathetic towards him, because they didn't know him. If they'd actually met him, they would not be sympathetic towards him, you know.

THERAPIST: Was he generally not a very well-liked fellow?

CLIENT: He was contrary for the sake of being contrary. He was just one of those people. Has to be the smartest person in the room. Has to be this kind of, you know. And I recognize that. I have a lot of friends that are (inaudible at 33:06) close to him but I have people that I am close to that I know that I have to let them be the person in the room that knows everything and that's part of the contract of our relationship. But that's not what most people tolerate, you know. So, I don't know. But at the same time I feel like maybe I just need to stop being so I feel like (pause) I guess the big problem with me at work is that I'm either extremely careful about what I say or I am completely off the top, that I don't feel like I'm really using the right amount of judgment when I'm talking to people.

THERAPIST: I follow. (inaudible at 33:48)

CLIENT: Yeah. And (inaudible at 33:51) it is unfortunately the processing time is so much slower. Because sometimes I'm just sitting here thinking, "OK, (inaudible at 33:58) told me this. What are the ramifications of this?" You know, and I just feel like I can't really be myself, obviously. Not that anyone can really, truly be themselves at their job. But, you know, I have a tendency to go off the cuff (ph) and say things that, you know, could potentially offend people. And so I have to be kind of careful.

THERAPIST: What (pause) do you think leads you to do that? In other words, (pause) why is the filter such as an either/or sort of thing?

CLIENT: I think after a while I get exhausted from trying to, like, keep everything sort of exactly the way I want it to be and then I let go. And (pause) I think that's probably it. It's probably just fatigue. Sometimes also I just think about like, I talk to someone, they seem intelligent and I don't necessarily have to be so worried about whatever. And then I realize, well, that there are these limits, you know. [00:35:25]

Unfortunately, being delicate has never been a good quality of mine in terms of [that skill set] (ph). (pause) I think in certain ways it comes back to that whole thing of feeling like I'm not interacting with people enough, therefore I'm like...

THERAPIST: You're a little out of practice [in some of this] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure. Do you feel bad or do you feel like I can't quite tell from your tone if you just feel like, "Oh, fuck, this is going to be trouble for me." Or like I guess I have more of that sense really, that, like, (laughter) I think because you, you know, you're pretty sure of what you say and you meet a guy and I think yeah, my impression from things you said before about people like your in-laws but also in general is that, like, you really don't like people who play those kind of drama games and the sort of manipulativeness of it. [00:36:53]

CLIENT: Well before I have even met my in-laws. I have never put up with that. Like, with them I put up with it much more than any other human being on the planet. But back then I would be like as soon as I had situations or friendships like that I'm like, you know, I've got better things to do. So that's sort of something in general that I just don't deal with. I feel mostly bad because now (pause) I took what was supposed to be like a piffy (ph) or interesting conversation and sort of killed it. And I don't necessarily know if I want to be invited into a conversation about this kind of stuff anymore, you know.

I don't want to seem like I don't have compassion. You know, I do. I really do.

THERAPIST: That's not how it's coming across to me. It sounds like you were, you know, sort of a little too tired to think diplomatically about it. And that...

CLIENT: I said what I really thought.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you said what you thought and that people like him sort of push a button of yours, somewhat. And, you know, there's a way it sounds like in which the, like, buzz around his suicide reiterates just the sort of thing that pushed your buttons in the first place with him. That, like, there's all this sort of attention and sympathy and probably remaking of him into somebody very different from who he was...

CLIENT: Exactly. [00:38:44]

THERAPIST: ...in a way that is just the sort of thing he would have gone after in his life. And that all just so rubs you the wrong way, which is quite differently, at least in my mind, from your, like, not generally having compassion for people.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I said, it's just one of those things where yeah, pretty much that. It is hard to have compassion for somebody who I feel like staged the whole thing (ph) for his own entertainment, you know. Like, there just wasn't enough whatever so...

THERAPIST: Bring on the drama.

CLIENT: Yep. And that's true I really don't have a really good drama for drama. I really don't. And it gets me very (pause) like I said, it just pushes my button. It really pushes my buttons. And I don't like I said, it's been like this all of my life. I've just had very and part of it is the fact that I'm very simple-minded in terms of like, simple-minded but, you know what I mean. I tend to not, like, (inaudible at 40:03) about things.

THERAPIST: I honestly like it a lot better when people are direct about things.

CLIENT: Yeah. I understand that people can't always be that way because we don't even necessarily know their own mind but I really don't like people who go out of their way. And even to the point right now where I have gotten very (pause) [I won't even] (ph) explain It, but I've gotten very defensive when (pause) I've been put in situations where someone asked me a question to which I assumed that somebody is accusing me of trying to manipulate the situation, you know. So I'm really, really straightforward and I don't like that. Because I try to be. I'm not always good about it but, you know, I do try to. I just don't like it (ph) for the sake of, you know, being that way, you know. It's so exhausting.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 41:17) gotten mad and a little bit set off about all this too.

CLIENT: Yeah. I am very easily (pause) the difference between me now as opposed to me in the past is that when dealing with people who seem to be manipulative or, you know, drama liking or whatever, in the past I just basically made a point of ignoring them and never, like, letting them have the time of day or just, like, sort of casually pushing them out of my life. Now it's more of a panic, like the hell's going to be going on now because obviously, you know, this person now it's much more a...

THERAPIST: It's much more of a threat.

CLIENT: It's more a threat. Definitely more of a threat. And even, like...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 42:19) one, * 00:42:21) your in-laws and, two, you know, really unfortunately you're in a much more vulnerable stage in your life than you used to be.

CLIENT: Yeah. So...

THERAPIST: We [need to] (ph) stop for now. So I'll see you next Thursday.

CLIENT: Next Thursday, yes.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: OK (inaudible at 42:49). See you next week.

THERAPIST: I'll see you next week.

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