TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Listen, I was wanting to talk a little bit about billing because so I am now off that health insurance, which shouldn't much affect you because you have, like, (inaudible at 00:17). So there should be two differences. One is they'll start sending reimbursement to you instead of to me.

CLIENT: They've been saying that you've been off (inaudible at 00:35) work for a while now to me.

THERAPIST: Oh, have they?

CLIENT: Yeah (inaudible at 00:39) last year.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it was [all for] (ph) part of last summer. Did I ever go over this with you?

CLIENT: I sent you (inaudible at 00:46) but you said it (inaudible at 00:48) big deal.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. No, I managed to fix all that and I, like, decided to get officially the hell out of there. (laughter) So the other thing is that they will probably charge you a deductible but I'll waive it. I mean, you guys are really strapped. So, you know, don't worry about it. I guess the thing is (inaudible at 01:14)

CLIENT: Let me first look to see if I can get (inaudible at 01:16) part of my flexible benefits. If it's something that I can get covered first, I'd rather have you not waive it. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I would prefer that.

CLIENT: Let me check and see first. Because I'd rather I mean, it is very kind and I definitely want to do that but I want to see if there's already something in the system that will [address it] (ph).

THERAPIST: No, thank you. I appreciate that. And otherwise, however you want to do it. If you want to...

CLIENT: Can I just sign checks over to you?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking that would be simplest.

CLIENT: Yeah, than trying to have it go into an account, wait for it to clear, then (inaudible at 01:53) a check.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's probably just easier that way. So in that case, I won't even bill you. I'll just let you sign over checks when you get those.

CLIENT: OK, that's great.

THERAPIST: If at any point it'd be easier for me to -

CLIENT: We'll play it by ear, at least for now. And then obviously they'll be potential surprises (inaudible at 02:11). We'll see what they send. If we let go because it's (inaudible at 02:14) with this or that, you know. We'll see.

THERAPIST: I mean, I've yeah.

CLIENT: OK. So (pause) excuse me for a second, this is going to seem a little weird but I didn't think I was going to make it here, so I was hurrying more than I probably should have and (inaudible at 02:42)

THERAPIST: OK, thanks.

CLIENT: (coughs)

THERAPIST: That's exciting.

CLIENT: (coughs) (inaudible at 02:52) but sure. (inaudible at 02:55) I just want to make sure I don't start wheezing (ph) later.

THERAPIST: Yeah, of course.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 03:06) Anyways, just trying to keep things above water right now, just, you know, keep going. I mean, I've been trying to, like, say no more family drama, vaguely (ph) mostly ignore work drama for the most part and just sort of stay focused on just keeping everything not necessarily perfect but enough like, basically [figuring enough] (ph) contingencies so that I can keep going, you know. Like, some people say things like, "Well, you're obviously a perfectionist because you straighten things up before you leave the house." I'm like, "No, I know when I come back home I'm going to be exhausted and therefore that dish from the kitchen, you know, it's a little bit of a pain in the neck now but it's far worse when I come back." So it's not so much like I'm obsessing over, like, leaving things in there. So I'm mostly just trying to figure out what sort of almost like because right now it's different than it normally is but sort of get, like, a workflow of what I need to do in the mornings and get that all, like, straightened out, that kind of thing since (ph) my energy level is low and I just, you know, just trying to keep things going until spring, you know, that kind of thing. And helping Mike out with his work, that kind of thing.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 04:45)

CLIENT: Yes. Also, just in general, like, various different hang-ups he has about certain things. Like, "Oh, well, this, you know, particular, you know, (inaudible at 04:58) isn't working so can you just do some research on things that are similar to (inaudible at 05:02), you know, blah blah blah, you know, whatever. "And if they, you know, flourish (ph) in this situation. I'm like, OK, sure, I can absolutely get you a list. You know, that kind of stuff. I'm a tool. I like that kind of stuff.

THERAPIST: I imagine you do.

CLIENT: So it's something that has...

THERAPIST: It would be nice to have something that you're using your mind for like that.

CLIENT: I'm using my mind for. It's actually not what I'm trained for, which is (inaudible at 05:24). It doesn't matter. It's the same kind of thing though, you know. I mean, it's different but yet it's the same concept. And so I don't mind helping out and honestly, this kind of stuff, especially, "Can you do this? Can you do that?" kind of like, things that have very concrete success, you know, that kind of stuff, I feel really good about that right now, things that I can say, "Yes, I got that done. Yes, I got that done."

So it's a little bit more complicated in that he, you know, Mike has a lot of he's not very good at dealing with negative emotions, as you've probably figured out. And so when he gets e-mails from people that he's concerned that they're pissed or something like that, you know, I've been helping him decode them. And also, like, helping him deal with, like (pause) I don't really know how to explain this. [00:06:28]

He wants to defend other people first in many situations. Like, his boss is the director of the institute, so he doesn't see him very often. His boss asked him last month to schedule an appointment. He tried to schedule an appointment with the secretary (inaudible at 06:43). Of course his boss says, "I have been trying for months now," because in theory when he tried it was late December. It is now February. In theory, that is for months now but it's really...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 06:55) six weeks.

CLIENT: Not even six weeks like four weeks. And he doesn't you know, that's just he's just that kind of guy, you know. And I think, you know, You know, instead basically tell him that you (inaudible at 07:10). Like, tell him that you've been going back and forth with the secretary [instead of like] (ph), I don't want to throw her under the bus. Like, "No no no, you don't understand." This is you or her. "Well, she's the one that's going to matter whether or not I get a good recommendation." She'll get over it by the time, that point. Like, she'll get over, like, processing recommendations for you. Like, you know, just throw her under the bus for this because she's the one that you've been if you were telling me the truth, which who knows what, you know, she's been the one that has been, like, not getting back to you on certain things, so do it, you know. But he never wants to do that kind of thing, you know. And I'm really trying to get him to be more selfish about certain things.

And, you know, I'm not normally like I understand it because I have been in those situations where I try to be extremely nice to secretaries. Anybody who works in administrative positions, they really run the world. I know that. And part of the reason why I've been able to do what I wanted to do or get situations happening when they wouldn't normally be done is because I've been especially nice to people in administrative positions. Like, I can get [out of this expense covered] (ph) while obviously there's nothing immediately underneath this but this person who knows all of the billing codes could figure out something that makes it, you know, not illegitimate but some sort of, you know, some situation where, you know.

So believe in this but I think that he's putting himself in a bad situation, you know. So (sighs) it's just frustrating, you know? It's very frustrating. I would really like him to I've been trying to push him to send weekly updates to his boss, even though his boss doesn't ask for it, and he doesn't he's really, really hesitant, that kind of thing. He really doesn't like formality on certain things very well. Like, you know, OK, well this is going to be the time that you write what you did this week or at least something. Even if it's nothing. Like, you know, "I spent all week trying to get this thing to work. Nothing worked." You know. "But I found out that this doesn't clean," you know, something. But he's just not that kind of guy. And (pause) unfortunately and this is one of the things that really pisses me off is that, like so many things in life, the world has somehow made him not that he's he doesn't actually exhaust (ph) and the world as let him slip through the cracks on things he should know or should be doing, so much that now there's nothing that's going to, like, reinforce that. Does that make sense? [00:09:57]

THERAPIST: [Let's see] (ph). I get that he sort of made it through without being able to do some fairly basic things, such as asserting himself in ways you're describing or probably taking care of himself in certain ways.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that what you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, so many times he has gotten, like, he has gotten through by sheer luck or by sheer, like, because people assume things that aren't necessarily true. Like the fact that there were weeks where he wasn't really working but nobody knew any better, you know. Or, like, it's really hard when there are no and I'm not saying he needed to be punished but when the consequences aren't as...

THERAPIST: No, it can be really helpful when people hold you accountable. I assume that's kind of [what you're referring to] (ph).

CLIENT: I mean, it is even goes down to the, like, flossing of teeth. Like, I try to get him to keep, like he sort of brushes them. He doesn't even remember how long it's been since he brushed his teeth. I'm serious. And, like, you know, because he hasn't had as much dental problems as he could have, obviously this is not, like, coming down on him. I mean, it isn't great but it's, like, this should be a lot worse than it could be. You know what I mean? So, like, consequences are not really any all of it's, like, sheer luck. And yes, it is true that, like, (pause), you know, I'm not saying that he shouldn't have breaks. I think that's good. I'm not jealous of him not having breaks. Let me assure you of that. [00:11:31]

THERAPIST: No, you just want him to be able to take care of himself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And assert himself in ways that he needs to, like...

CLIENT: Especially while he's still young enough to get these habits down at least, you know. And so...

THERAPIST: It must be very hard to watch.

CLIENT: It is. It is really hard because I know that, like -

THERAPIST: [And quite] (ph) painful.

CLIENT: Very.

THERAPIST: My impression (ph) is that some of the most intense things that you feel are for him. I don't mean just that you love him, although obviously -

CLIENT: No, I know. From a very like, I want the world for him. I really want the world for him, literally.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it can be very sad when you see his limitations. You know, I don't mean, like, you know, that in some sense he's not capable of brushing his teeth, you know. But, like, knowing where it came from, seeing it as a sign of neglect, like, is very painful for you to see.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, part of it's that he zones out. Like, he really dissociates, that kind of thing. But some of it is the fact that he just doesn't have, like, a system and part of it is all about scheduling, you know. If we don't go to the same time every night then it's really hard to get up in the morning, that kind of thing. He usually gets up before I do but it's mostly just sort of [hanging out] (ph). Like, he hangs out on the Internet for a couple of hours before he really gets anything done. I feel bad and this is where the problem is, OK. We have a very (pause) our roles really should be incongruent. Like, they shouldn't be exactly the same. Like, sometimes it's like I have to get up and start doing something to get him to do it. Not that I'm actually saying anything but him seeing me limp around doing something gets him to do it. That's really fucking frustrating. [00:13:33]

And therefore, like, yes, I have a good hour, hour and a half sometimes more than that in the morning where I can't move and I'm in pain. It is not the same on his side. Therefore, like, it is extremely frustrating to have that kind of thing. But at the same time, you know, he does do a lot for me. I mean, this morning I had a very hard time getting to the bus station so that I could get to work. I asked him just to get a car (ph) to get me [out to Freehold] (ph). (inaudible at 14:07) "Don't drive me to work, don't worry. Just get out of me to Freehold (ph). Everything will be OK." He did do that.

THERAPIST: You were just in a lot of pain?

CLIENT: Yeah, a lot of pain and just I could tell that if I just spent enough time moving around it was going to get better but it was just this morning I had to get on the bus before 7:00 am.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 14:28)

CLIENT: I work at 8:45 and I have to leave before 7:00 am every morning, yeah. And it was like...

THERAPIST: And you need an hour, an hour and a half just to start getting moving, right (inaudible at 14:40).

CLIENT: Yeah. So here I am, it's like six o'clock and I'm like I am having a tremendous time moving. Let 's just a get a car (ph). And if you can get me to Freehold (ph) then I'll be OK. And so, like, sometimes he drives me to work directly but, you know, that kind of stuff. So I don't like to make it seem like he's the one that's always getting, like, the free pass on things. It's just that sometimes I feel like when I am taking the things that I need to for my body that he sort of does it too, you know. Like, if I'm at home sick sometimes he's not, like, at work, that kind of thing. And...

THERAPIST: He can (ph) sort of follow along.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, he hasn't stayed home sick with me in a while but usually, I mean, it's not because I need to be taken care of, you know. It's more like...

THERAPIST: It also (ph) occurred to me the other day to mention to you about (inaudible at 15:43). Now (ph), I have not met him obviously, so I would not presume to diagnose any of this but, you know, you mentioned that he gets quite dissociated and that's not unusual for somebody with an addiction like his. And (inaudible at 15:58) to say that sometimes when somebody has this also goes along with not remembering much from childhood, that kind of thing. Unless he says that kind of thing pretty explicitly, that can be a very hard thing for therapists to pick up. It can take years, if you know, there are lots of other conditions such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, you know, (inaudible at 16:30) and other things that are much easier to pick up (inaudible at 16:32). Sometimes without being explicitly told it's very hard for a clinician to pick up when someone dissociates because -

CLIENT: Actually, I -

THERAPIST: ...just missing.

CLIENT: I started using that word after you explained to me what that is and I, like, kind of knew what it was but started using that word (inaudible at 16:46) by using he's a different person, that kind of thing. And I'm trying to use it a lot more often so that it becomes more of the vernacular of what we're discussing. So I'm not (ph) trying to get it in his vocabulary saying, "I was dissociating kind of thing."

THERAPIST: Yeah, and I see (ph) patients who, like, it's only emerged [sort of] (ph) after years that they'll have these sort of little (inaudible at 17:09) at night where they're just really somewhere else and it relates to their trauma history and this and that. You know, I just have no way of knowing that before they actually (inaudible at 17:18).

CLIENT: I mean, I think (inaudible at 17:21), like, much like OK, so when my husband was having sleeping problems they said bring your spouse. I said, "Why?" Because you don't know what you do when you're sleep. (laughter) I thought there was a lot of wisdom in that. Like, when we were talking to the doctor we were like, "Yeah, we only need, you know, the, like, spouse (inaudible at 17:39), you know, whatever. Like, bring your significant other because you have no clue." And then they physically asked me some questions and that's really, I think on some level, also, you know, with the behavior and the addiction, it really is on some level, something that I notice more than he does. But the thing is that I'm just really, really resentful about it, the fact that many of the people I mention this too, especially people who, you know, love and supposedly care about him or, you know, at least him possibly us don't understand that or kind of think I'm being, like, dramatic about it, saying that he's a completely different human being.

Like, he has a different gait when he when walks. Like, I can hear from the way he's walking around the house kind of that he's not even noticing. I'm not saying he becomes a different person. I'm not saying, like, literally a different person, like there's a multiple personality or anything like that. I'm just saying that, like, because of the way he is he's not even looking where he's walking and I can tell by the way he's walking that he's not, you know, things like that.

THERAPIST: I (inaudible at 18:49) of what you're describing. There are sometimes when he, you know, he can sort of pull it together for you sometimes and sort of take care of things for you or be there for you in ways that require him to really be relatively present. [There's just] (ph) one example. And then there are times where he's really just completely somewhere else.

CLIENT: I don't think it's necessarily he pulls it together for me. There are times (inaudible at 19:10) I believe where based upon [the acting out] (ph) he is completely out of, you know, off this planet. And sometimes he's not. I think he pulls it together for other people but I think that (pause) sometimes he does, like, on special occasions maybe or something like that. But I don't think he can I mean, it depends. I just don't know if he can, because I need it, necessarily do it. It would have to be an actual active battle (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah, absolutely. I guess there are times that you describe him doing things for you that sound as though in those moments when he is able to do that (inaudible at 19:53)

CLIENT: Sometimes he's really, really in the present.

THERAPIST: These are sort of the ones I've heard about because they relate to you, but [I certainly didn't mean it didn't make sense to me] (ph) (inaudible at 20:00) that whenever you need it he pulls together. It's not like that (inaudible at 20:04)

CLIENT: Like, if I need him to make a phone call for certain things, he usually I mean, especially if I really need him to do it, he's not usually like cognizant of stuff to be able to figure out to handle certain situations or whatever, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess no, what I meant more was, like, there are clearly sometimes where he is quite present...

CLIENT: Yeah, very much so. That was the type of man I married.

THERAPIST: And then there are other times where he's just not and, you know, you can be sitting across the table from him but he's really somewhere quite different.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 20:41)

CLIENT: Yeah. Or at least the very least he's in some way withdrawing somehow. There's something going on. I think the acting out in certain ways is sort of a still, on some level, a symptom of the bigger picture. Something's bothering him, something he's feeling worried about, you know, and that's part of it. I mean, it's somewhere in the middle but it's not quite the whole thing. It just (pause) [it leaves] (ph) a lot to really be confident about. I just wish he (pause) felt comfortable doing it, you know. And (sighs) it's funny because a lot of the problems he has I totally understand because I've been there before. That whole thing of I was so caught up in the conversation and trying to, like, align myself with the person I'm talking to to make, you know, that I totally forgot to establish, you know, what I wanted out of the situation, you know. I had that happen more than twice this week probably. But I at least somehow save face or at least I know when it's something important, to have to stay in the moment for that, you know. But it's not... [00:22:14]

THERAPIST: I mean, you probably get distracted or a bit preoccupied because you're in pain or...

CLIENT: Sometimes I have such a strong sense of empathy that I feel so bad for them that, oh my gosh, you know, that is a terrible thing, blah blah blah, you know. But even though this is terrible, I still have to, you know this is what has to be done, you know. I've had that happen with other people before but I don't necessarily I don't know. It's weird. For him it's mostly just, especially when something's important, (inaudible at 22:46) take down names and write the documentation of things. So, like, if he has to call up about something. Say we paid our electric bill and we have the check showing it but they say we haven't paid it and they want to turn off the electricity I'm just making something up right up now he may not be like, "OK, so I need to have your name. Can I have an extension? Is there, like, since you're handling this thing, is there, like, some not just can I call you directly. Is there, like, some sort of record? Like, is there, like, a confirmation number that this is happening?" you know. And you're (ph) writing all that down. OK, you say it's OK. You've seen this problem, you know. OK, I'm going to believe this situation's fine and be done with it. And he's just so wrapped up in resolving it that maybe not necessarily getting all the details that need to happen. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But I don't like, I have to pick my battles on this because these are already his life has been so henpecked by people telling him everything he's ever done wrong that I don't want to be one more person that, like, gives him a hard time, which is why, like, you know, if for some reason he's forgotten to, you know, brush his teeth, I mean, I'm going to remind him right then but I'm not going to be like, "Why the hell can't you, like, get it together and brush your teeth twice a day like the rest of the human race?" you know. That's one less thing he needs to have beaten up on himself for, you know. [00:24:18]

But there's certain things that he's really, really good about doing, you know. He's really good about, no matter how bad he's feeling, making sure that we have, you know, if he needs to stop and get groceries he will do it, you know. Because that's part of his routine. That's part of, you know, that whole workflow thing, you know. He knows that he can do that. And for me, like, because of the fact he does so much for me, you know, I have really been making the effort of going to pick up my dog actually because, you know, it is on my way home, in theory. It is on my way home with an extra half mile walk in it. But for him it's a lot further out of the way. So, like, for me, I mean, it's not that it's I would really rather not but it is definitely more of a gesture to show that I appreciate especially in the afternoons because it's better for me, I appreciate all that he does, that I'm going to make sure to make the extra effort, even when I think I can't, to do that, because that's just, you know, showing that I can. [00:25:27]

But, you know, it's a lot. It's a lot to deal with. I (pause) he knew, and I told him this morning when he was giving me a ride to work or whatever. But he, you know, that he was warned by his last advisor that this advisor does do this like, he's very again, he has an whole company. He has an company that regularly gets hundreds of millions of dollars privately. So, I mean, he's running a small three-ring circus. Like, you know, and there's a lot to go with that ego too. He's working (ph) on this. Like, he does this thing where, like, occasionally and his boss told him like (ph) this it's like that he rolls a die and if it comes up one then it's he's going to be the person that he's going to focus on for the next six weeks and be on their ass. And then when he rolls the die again it's going to be this three, so it's time for Mike to do this. His boss told him that because his boss worked with his advisor.

So, like, he knows that this is the way it happens. And so I'm like, "You know what, honestly, this is kind of a rough thing let's just don't worry. I mean, I'm not saying don't do anything but I'm saying don't worry. Just keep your nose down, get the work done and it will be OK. But, you know, go in with real slides. Go in with real slides. I know it's just the two of you meeting. Trust me on this, like, you know. Go in with an agenda, trust me. You may think those are the most ridiculous thing and you're playing (ph) office. Well, trust me, he's going to think you're actually serious if you have an agenda, you know, accomplishments, you know, those kind of stuff. And deliverables. And may seem overly formal for two people having a conversation but not only will it seem like you're actually doing your job, but it'll get him off your back so much faster, you know.

And (pause) I know this kind of stuff. Why? Because I worked in the world's biggest red tape factory in the world you know, (inaudible at 27:36). So, like, yeah, I have had a statement of work. [What statement of work? It's] (ph) saying what I'm going to do. Like, statement of works can be 60 pages long. So, like, and then you go back and verify that it, you know. That's OK. I like that kind of stuff, because I like to go back and look back and make sure that it was exactly what we did. But it's sort of a different thing and I think that it's frustrating but I think it's really important for him to have to deal with all these different I think it's good because he doesn't know what the next job's going to bring to him, like, what kind of work environment it is. And they're all really, really different, especially I mean, people think of corporate as being very laidback and this and that. Not all of them are. He has two offices, one of which, like, is 9:00 to 5:00. The other one, on Christmas day there were people there not because they work all the time but because they have such a, like, completely strange, like, environment that they they have beer weekly while they have their meeting I thought that was strange too. And their meetings are at 8:00 pm on a Tuesday, you know.

That comes from the fact that the community tends to traditionally come from other fields and therefore, you had to do your work at night because most of the information was coming from other countries. Now, that being said, none of that stuff has been valid for 50 years but, still, the culture of that side of things is you have the meetings at night, which I think is ridiculous but, you know. Less ridiculous than if it was anthropology that was doing this. That would just mean they're slackers and they have their meetings at night. [00:29:17]

But, you know, it's all different and I think it's good for him. But I see him struggling with dealing with that kind of stuff and, you know, I really feel like he's not very good at it (ph) right now and part of it's the fact that he's going through all this crap with his family. Like, he's all of a sudden realized, "Holy crap, my mom was a terrible mother." Although his mom said she was a terrible mother for years but she kind of, like, gloried in the fact that she was a terrible mom, you know. But he started realizing, "Wow, that wasn't, like, just, hey, saying this to, like, jokingly say I'm a terrible mom."

THERAPIST: It's actually true.

CLIENT: It's actually true, you know. And that's a lot to have to think about.

THERAPIST: Absolutely, very it can be devastating. I mean, even it's true and ultimately will be a relief, it's usually pretty awful and devastating at first because you didn't see it like that.

CLIENT: Yeah, you know. And I know that he tries that's part of the reason that he forgets, you know. (pause) I think that basically unless something is ecstatically happy he forgets it. That's the only survival trait he had. And you know what, I mean, his parents his dad acts that way too and I wondering, like, you know, (inaudible at 30:38) I thought you got over that whole sexual addiction thing. Like, a while back he had said that. It's like, I thought you, like, got past that. I'm like, no. Just because I haven't said it doesn't mean it's not still happening. And I feel like repetition, although it sort of (inaudible at 30:54) between repetition to keep remembering and repetition for, like I don't know. I don't know, I'm just ranting.

THERAPIST: Well, it all puts a lot on you. I mean, as much as I mean, there's all the things you feel seeing the trouble that he has and all the things it requires you to do, which in a way you're happy to do but it's a lot.

CLIENT: Yeah. On some level I am, like, resorting and I want to do the things that (sighs) I just want him to have I want him to have a decent life, you know. I'd do anything to have him live a decent life. And I just don't know how to make it happen, you know. That's probably the biggest thing. (sighs) That's probably, you know last Friday night he stayed home and I was like he was like, "So what are we doing?" I'm like, "Wait a second. I really was planning on you leaving." Not because I wanted to do anything but I was just, like, so shocked and, like, I don't know. I don't know what to do because I wasn't really planning on anything because I'm just sort of used to him going out now and I think it's... [00:32:22]

THERAPIST: It's because of the cards thing?

CLIENT: Because of the card thing, yep. Usually it is Wednesday nights and Friday nights, sometimes Saturday afternoons. Usually not if he went Friday night but it varies. Sometimes there are other days too. But I think it's good for him on some level because he seems to have a good time.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: I'm really pushing him to spend more time on Harvard's campus (inaudible at 32:50) because they have a lot more career-based stuff, you know, things like, you know, things about knowing about, like, academic jobs. Things more post-doc (ph), that kind of stuff. So he's been going to them.

THERAPIST: Good. (inaudible at 33:05)

CLIENT: Yeah, I just really like to part of it's me. I like to feel like I'm participating. I'm not, like, whining that I have to find these things for him. I like doing it. It makes me feel like I have some...

THERAPIST: Sure. Well, it's something you can do.

CLIENT: I'm a stakeholder in this. I feel like I need, like, to have some sort of participation in it somehow, you know.

THERAPIST: No, I imagine if there was more architecture type work for you [it'll be great] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, there is stuff but right now I just necessarily don't know if I would be capable, you know. So why not just do this. And it doesn't hurt. I think it's a good (inaudible at 33:46). It keeps my mind active. Honestly, if I was able to, you know, survive I don't know I would need to have a job per se or, like, a job in the architecture field to be fulfilled in life if I just had things to work on from time-to-time. You know, some people need the title of a job to feel OK. I don't need that, as long as I have things to work on in my own head that will (ph) keep me occupied.

THERAPIST: Yeah, things that are keeping you stimulated and occupied and also (pause) I think you can be a bit of a doer. I mean, that it's nice to like, the set (ph) of accomplishment is actually (ph) important, like, that you're being productive. In [some way] (ph) you're being productive. (inaudible at 34:31)

CLIENT: It's frustrating though because I am, you know, in my own current job I am being, like, told that I need to be very careful to not, you know because I'm a doer as a development aspect I need to, like, learn how to stand back and let others do. Which feels (ph) great, except for the fact that what else am I going to do with my fucking time? I mean, yes I have a slight amount of a I have a slight, like, control complex but not real I mean, a little bit. But it's not that much, you know. It's more of a, you know, great. Stand back and let other people do and then what do I do with my time after that? You know? Yes, it's true that if there's something new at 18 years old and they seem kind of like they're brain dead I'm a little bit of a control freak about this. Like, I can't trust you. I wouldn't trust to parallel park my career much less, like, do this repair, you know. But most of those things I mean, these are the rare things like that. Not like, you know. I used to be a lot more of a control freak then I started getting arthritis and I realized that I had to ask for help a lot. I think I told you some of the more insensitive things that I've said to people who were employed by me or reported to me. [00:35:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah...

CLIENT: Things like, "You can't help me if you can't read my mind." (laughter) "Why can't you go steal office supplies and make long distance phone calls like all" this is back in the days of long distance "phone calls like all the rest of the interns (inaudible at 36:13)." Things like that, yeah, you know. Basically get out of my hair so that I can actually do my job, you know. So I'm not as much of a control freak now about that kind of stuff but (pause), you know, it's amazing. I do talk about the sunnier side of things when there are some pretty fucking bleak (ph) things in my life and I talk about how this is a benefit. But in some way, I mean, the arthritis did make me a better person by not a better person. Maybe a better person.

THERAPIST: You're more flexible and certainly (ph)...

CLIENT: More flexible. Actually, it made me into less of a jerk a bit too. Because I had to learn to become patient with myself, therefore becoming patient with others. But it did do that and I do talk about that (pause) more often than not when people ask me questions just curious questions about my arthritis, but just ask me questions in general. And I'm not just saying that to (inaudible at 37:23) really is kind of true. It did (pause) benefit me.

THERAPIST: It must have been, like, pretty crippling.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 37:35) yeah. Lots of fog, like, brain fog. Lots of pain.

THERAPIST: I mean, you're used to sort of being always on top of things and...

CLIENT: Yeah. And on top of being a doer, I mean, yesterday we were doing training on how to identify there's apparently this trend. Of course you're confidential [on all of this] (ph). There's this trend right now, huge trend in Providence, of counterfeit phones.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: Yes. They're counterfeit phones that are broken. They don't work they just look like phones. So you bring them in, they have the right serial numbers on them, so they (inaudible at 38:15) for a real phone.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so we were disassembling these and had to get the (inaudible at 38:23) meter and things like that on how to and they wanted to make sure people like me, who I only service phones maybe a few hours a week, that we can identify them because there's, like, only a couple ways you can tell. But apparently I have highly impressed everybody around me w/ how quickly I can assemble and disassemble a phone and, like, how I knew how to properly attach an antenna on back and things like that. And part of it's the fact that the audience these are, you know, not that they're dumb but this is an audience that's easily impressed by that kind of stuff. But, like, you know, that's the kind of stuff that, like, I like to do, you know. I enjoy doing that kind of stuff. Can I do it for my job? I mean, Microsoft would give me the promotion (ph) if I wanted to do full time, do all that kind of stuff. Could I do it? No. Why? Because I can do it really fast now, like, one of them. But if I did it all day long I would, you know, I'd be having the surgery fast (ph). It hurts. [00:39:27]

And once upon a time I spent, you know, I actually earned a living kind of a writing (ph) about that kind of thing. And it was somewhat therapeutic, though I think that actually writing about my arthritis about that kind of stuff actually in certain ways sort of made it a little bit worst because it made me think more about what I'm giving up on. Sort of like Mike, like, forgetting. It's not, like, literally forgetting, but it's just like a by talking about it more kept the wound a little bit raw. But, you know, it's something I enjoy doing. And so it was, like, the highlight of my month so far, at least well, it's only been four days in the month but for at least weeks [in time] (ph). So (inaudible at 40:14) in seeing what this chip looks like and learning about even just the behavioral aspects of the people who are coming in trying to pawn off these phones and trade them in for the right (ph) ones and stuff like that. Part of it is the social (inaudible at 40:27), like, realizing, OK, usually when they come in they have two phones. They don't tell you they have two phones. Like, all this like, behavioral aspect. And then when you get a hold of it, like, you know, put it on a meter and all this other stuff and they claim it's broken because it never could turn on. It just looks I mean, it's about as fake as the books (ph) at IKEA. It's just fascinating to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like detective work.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's not even just detective work. Part of it is that too but just, like, to me the concept that people are doing this is interesting too. But, like, the how to take it apart and, like, get to the point where you can actually see if it's real. That's (ph) fascinating stuff. Would I do it all the time? I'd love to be doing that more often. I would love to be working with Microsoft and their (ph) quality assurance in terms of, like, getting new like, we have special tools to take apart phones and all these stuff. Building these tools, I'd love to be doing that. Can I do it? No. And that's hard, you know.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: That's something I miss, I miss a lot. And I just don't get the same kind of satisfaction out of, you know. And maybe, like, people are always talking about the, you know, the (inaudible at 41:41) aspect. I do (inaudible at 41:42) stuff and it still hurts a lot on my hands but it's not as bad. I mean, you're just not holding a soldering iron so it's not as strong but quite frankly it's not as satisfying, you know.

THERAPIST: You really like doing stuff with your hands.

CLIENT: I really do. And maybe I wouldn't be so much like I don't necessarily know. I've always done this stuff but I don't think I would be so obsessed with having to do with my hands if I didn't lose that (ph) aspect. If I didn't have arthritis, what I really feel as if (inaudible at 42:16) isn't really the same thing, doesn't give me is as fulfilling? I don't know. Simply (ph) because I can't do it. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Maybe if you could use your hands and you're in (inaudible at 42:29) it wouldn't be so bad because you'd be doing something else with your hands. After work you'd be building god knows what.

CLIENT: Yeah, or maybe I wouldn't. Like, maybe I wouldn't need to go and build stuff, you know, for fun. Maybe (ph) I would have grown out of it.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 42:41) it sounds like you like to build stuff.

CLIENT: I like to build stuff. You don't understand. I love to build stuff, you know. And...

THERAPIST: You've (ph) at least done it for most of your life.

CLIENT: Pretty much as early on as I was able to come up with stuff, yeah. So, yeah, you know. And (pause) (sighs) coming to terms with the fact that I (pause) what I can and can't do was kind of hard.

THERAPIST: Sure, absolutely.

CLIENT: I did find out oh gosh, what was it called? The cycle that I had. Like, I think I've told you that, like, the whole, like I'm trying to remember what the name of it is. We were reading about this arthritis book (ph) recently. [The psycho load] (ph) of, "Oh my gosh. I am doing OK. Therefore, I am going to keep doing all the stuff and then crash cycle," which, in the past, you know, my completely and totally unethical stepmother-in-law likens it to manic, like, you know, bipolar disorder, which it's not.

THERAPIST: [And it completely isn't] (ph), yeah.

CLIENT: It's just that, oh my god, I can do things and [I don't feel it] (ph). And then I crash because I overdid it. They're (ph) very different. Like, (inaudible at 44:02) the outside. And I don't necessarily say that it's wrong for them (ph) to say that. I think it's mean (ph).

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 44:07) to tell the difference. I mean, surely you're not up all night with pressured (ph) speech, you know.

CLIENT: Sometimes I get excited and talk fast but, still.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but it's not that hard to talk. We should stop for now. (inaudible at 44:21)

CLIENT: But, yeah. So, like, quite frankly, you know, it's more of a time bomb more than a, like, compulsion to have to do. So now I feel better I cannot take any of that stuff to heart. I never really believed that one anyways.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: My best friend Bryant, growing up, had it very strongly and I just felt like I don't if it walks like a penguin, I can't tell you what a penguin but I can tell you one when I see it? Yeah. When we were toddlers, he was bipolar. So I know what it looks like.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 45:02)

CLIENT: See you later. See you Thursday?

THERAPIST: Yep.

END TRANSCRIPT