TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I'm glad you made it. I was concerned because of the weather.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, so. I had to drag myself out of bed at like 4:30, just to make sure that I got to work today. So I was already on the bus system, I was going to go through, but thanks for checking anyways.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: (yawns) I had no idea what the weather was going to be like when I got out, and so nothing was shoveled and you know.

THERAPIST: Sure, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I went to Kentucky, it was a good experience.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: One of the things that was not as good but definitely helpful, was Mike started to realize that the time that we spent around our friends and the time he spent around his family, yes family is supposed to be stressful, but in general, it was making him behave really differently, and on top of it, the type of role models that are being shown are not the ones that he wants to follow. The things that have been spooking him for years, he's starting to actually notice now. [00:01:16]

THERAPIST: That's terrific. It sounds like, at least your sense is he's getting some insight.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, sometimes he gets sucked back in again, but usually, the fact that his littlest brother at one point had a DUI a while back. In fact, Mike is the only member of his dad's four children that hasn't had one. However, for some reason, in his dad's mind, because of the fact that the policeman who pulled him over was no longer working for that area and therefore, wasn't able to show up to court and it was thrown out, that that meant that he really didn't do it. I'm serious.

THERAPIST: I believe you.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That is the kind of completely twisted logic, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Things like, you know, we were mentioning things about allergies and his dad is saying things like oh, yeah, I was allergic to cats, and then your mother got a cat. Mike's, which he's now divorced from. Got a cat and then I just sort of after a while, I was real sick for a while and then I just got over it. Like that kind of insensitive kind of crap. [00:02:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Some people do actually do that but some people never get past that, you know?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: The point is, is that by saying things like that, that's trying to make it seem like well why haven't you. There's an obvious -

THERAPIST: It's insensitive.

CLIENT: Yeah. But just all kinds of random crap like that and just in general, little things like that, a lot of the belief systems, that kind of thing. Their very stilted view of the world, I think he's starting to see that that's really not the right way to be. Whereas when we're around our friends, I mean it was the happiest I've seen him in years.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's terrific. [00:03:29]

CLIENT: We had a really good time, he had a really good time.

THERAPIST: Good, that's great, you guys needed that.

CLIENT: Especially, like and it sounds weird, but also just being around people that have a better work ethic.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know? Not that his dad doesn't work that much, but it's not it's hard to explain, but I always get the feeling like it's sort of like trying to game the system a little bit, like trying to seem like you're working really hard, but not really work as much.

THERAPIST: What does his dad do?

CLIENT: His dad works for a tech company. Those things, like you know when you get off the he's one of the people that invented originally, the bar code scanner, like if you pull the trigger, back in the '70s.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Primarily, the big clipboards they have at UPS, when they scan your package, that kind of thing, that's his group.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: He's one of the people that but now, we're not really sure what he does, other than attend webinars and tell people what to do. He had some really both disturbing and enlightening like stuff that just you know? He's very caught up in a lot of stuff, usually status quo type stuff. Like he brought Mike over to see the house, the amazing house that's being built next door, which is not that amazing and not that awesome, but and made Mike go see the tour of the houses of the neighborhood. He loves to make people drive people by houses. I don't get it. When I first moved, when I first visited Kentucky, how many people drove me by to see the two story houses was so weird and it freaked me out in general. Very rarely, I see two stories. Most places are one story. Labor is extremely cheap. [00:05:14]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And because of the way that the there are no basements. Well, not true. One of our friends just built a beautiful home that actually has a basement, but because it's clay, the foundation is very weird.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: I mean people do have two story houses. It's less common but yeah, so it's like it's hard to explain, but he has very set things he likes to do, and this is one of the things. Although he claims that he doesn't know where Mike's other little brother is, the one that's wanted by the law, he was able to find him fast enough to go visit Mike, to have him come out and visit Mike briefly.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Amongst many other things, he amusingly tells me an anecdote about how and this is, you can tell how deeply Mike's dad is very deeply uncomfortable with homosexuality in general, which is actually funny, because his brother is gay. [00:06:14]

THERAPIST: You mean Mike's dad's brother.

CLIENT: Yeah. In fact, the person who dated his Mike's dad had a big family, but one of his older brothers actually dated Mike's mother before they got serious, like back in high school. So it's sort of a running joke that she turns men gay.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: It's not true and that's not what it's about and any of that. It's ridiculous kind of shit. But he told this amusing anecdote about how Mike's brother is now living in an area that is well known for being gay. I'm like okay? He's like, and he tells me that as long as you leave them alone, they're more than happy... I mean the way it sounded, like it...

THERAPIST: Yeah, like you could catch gay.

CLIENT: Not only that, but it sounded an awful lot like back when I read Montana's stuff about Native Americans, and the noble you know what I mean? He was speaking about how good they are but like almost like it's a separate wild America, like noble creature kind of. He was very bizarre in general, it's very screwed up. But, you know, he's got a very myopic view of the world in general. Obviously, because the son obviously wasn't drinking and driving if, you know, he was found not guilty. [00:07:33]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Due to the fact that the cop -

THERAPIST: For a technicality.

CLIENT: who did the breathalyzer was not there to actually testify.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I'm really proud of Mike. When he was with his father, he had mentioned maybe they should call Kerry, his sister, up, and see if she could bring out the kids for dinner. He said, I really Mike said, I really don't he's like maybe at some other point in time, right now, but I really don't want to see her right now.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Which, I mean, that's good enough, I think, at this point. We did discuss, I mean we referred to bio family and real family a lot, when with our friends. These are our real family, the bio family is out there, we have to see them on unfortunately, on both ends, we ended up seeing Mike's dad, because he lives right next to the airport. But, you know, it's getting more and more apparent that things are just too screwed up over there to bear, you know? There's just, yeah, so. It is a necessary evil, but when we were with our friends it was fantastic. [00:08:51]

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: It was really fantastic. Rowland was surprised for his birthday.

THERAPIST: Good, that's terrific.

CLIENT: We got a chance to visit again, with the family, afterwards too, not just at the party and the after party, but actually with the family, you know, straight on, one on one thing, so.

THERAPIST: Well, good.

CLIENT: So I got to meet baby Kara, who is now six. I have no idea why, but Rowland's kids, all of a sudden, all of them have done this to me, of like as soon as they meet me, they start clinging on. It's adorable, it's absolutely adorable.

THERAPIST: That's great.

CLIENT: Rowland's wife just sent me a text message, using the phrase, Kara applied herself to you like sunscreen, because she was trying to make sure she was touching with every part of her body. It was absolutely adorable.

THERAPIST: That's really cute.

CLIENT: And stuff like that, but it was really good. Their son is going to be coming up here for he's part of the crew team, which in Kentucky, there really isn't crew, but apparently, Jesuit worshipers were drawn when Rowland went, is actually fielding a decent crew team, so they're going to be ahead next year. [00:10:00]

THERAPIST: Oh, wow.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is he in high school or college?

CLIENT: High school, a junior, really, really good at crew though, apparently.

THERAPIST: That's great.

CLIENT: Which is amazing because the only river they have is a drainage ditch, like the Trinity is not a river.

THERAPIST: Right, space for rowing, rowing machines, renting sink tanks?

CLIENT: Lakes, lakes.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: But they're going to be coming up to compete here, so we're excited about that. I might see him if it's, you know? I think it's mostly a school trip, we don't know, but we'll see, but since Mike is an alum, in theory, it would be easier. If it were a high school, they'd be kind of shady about like these random people coming to visit this kid who's on a trip, but since this is an alum, you know, and at Yale, it might be easier to come and have a visit with people and that kind of stuff.

THERAPIST: Sure, cool.

CLIENT: So that was fantastic. We had the surprise of a lifetime in that one of other Mike's friends that we were standing with, we ended up staying with a person who was not friends with Rowland, so that he wouldn't catch on to the surprise, and he wasn't very well but he didn't exactly go by the real traditional method of making it in life. He never went to college, he went to one college course, to prove to his family he didn't really like it. They're like why don't you take one and he was like, not really, this and that. He has done exceptionally, exceptionally well for himself. [00:11:35]

THERAPIST: Oh, good. Doing what?

CLIENT: He is part of a startup that about ten years ago, it's a large cloud based computing company in the world.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: You wouldn't see it but it's the enterprise back of it. So, we went to his house, he's building a multi, multi-million dollar home, all paid off. I mean, he's when we were at Mike's dad's house, he'd like is Everett still living with his parents, and we're like...

THERAPIST: Not actually.

CLIENT: The funny thing is, is that I said to him, I'm like Everett's never it's true, he's never lived with his parents, even when he wasn't. His parents live out west, Everett, blah-blah-blah. And then like we come to his house and like, you know Mike's dad has been showing us all the fancy houses?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Everett just built literally, like an eleven, twelve-thousand square foot house, with a guest home, with a guest wing, with everything, I mean everything you'd ever imagine. A theater, everything, primarily because of the fact that he does hold a lot of meetings. I mean it isn't just excessive for the (inaudible). He does a lot of offsite stuff, there.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:12:47]

CLIENT: For his team. So, having this enormous space makes it so his kids can have a separate place from that. He does a lot of he wants to eventually do a lot more entertaining, having people come to visit, so having a separate guest house is, you know, all this stuff. Although it's still a little bit excessive, you know what, first of all, more power to him, but second of all, it isn't just like, it isn't ridiculous to have that much space and that few people, because it's being utilized for other stuff.

THERAPIST: Ah-huh, yeah.

CLIENT: But I'm just really I knew things were going well when he bought his first house, like ten years ago. His wife is about to have a baby, now he's got two kids that are actually in elementary school. He's doing really, really well. So that's fabulous and apparently, we were the first people to come visit them, that didn't have like envy, other than family members. Apparently, according to his wife, after a while, people get kind of after a while, they act like they're really happy for them but they're really not. [00:13:53]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And so she's been really feeling distance from a lot of the people that they knew, because of that. Me, I mean I'm absolutely tickled, I'm thrilled. It's not a mansion. First of all it's an estate, but I don't to me, that's a pejorative in general, to use for a home, but it's a home. You can see different pieces of it, it's a home, you know? And I'm just so tickled about it. I love the fact that the kids are trained. I made sort of a joke, because the kids get a quarter every time they bring their laundry down, they do all this stuff, and on the day we were leaving, I'm like hauling down all the laundry, and she's like well you didn't need to take your bed roll. I heard there's a quarter in it for me, if I bring my laundry down. (laughs) And she just thought that was the funniest thing she'd ever heard. But, you know, her children are charming. Everett is French Swiss, and so the kids, like do when dealing with behavioral, issue related things, or just in general, trying to get them to do stuff, he speaks to them in French. They're coming to dinner, they speak to them in like they'll have a conversation about stuff, but you know, it's time for dinner, is all said in French and this and that, and it's just really sweet. [00:15:16]

THERAPIST: Ah-huh.

CLIENT: They try to do a lot of the hands off French style parenting, which isn't ignoring your children, but also not letting letting them learn to self-pursue, but not like ignoring them, and stuff like that, and it seems to be, at least for their temperament, awesome.

THERAPIST: That's great.

CLIENT: We talked a lot about that actually.

THERAPIST: I've never heard of that.

CLIENT: If their kids were born differently, they would have been like -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: They wouldn't have tried this, but since they're very independent kids anyways, they're always nearby, but they're letting them make their first attempts without them jumping in on everything, because, you know. And having dinner parties, but not necessarily having it be all about the kids, but having the kids nearby, you know? If they're at a dinner party and a kid needs attention from a parent, he says, "Pardon me, can I interrupt?" Unless there's blood, if there's blood, they're going to run off immediately, but you know what I mean, like pardon me, can I interrupt, and then mention something, instead of making it all about the kids. Pretty cool stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:16:18]

CLIENT: I don't necessarily like I said, I don't know if it would work for me, but for them. And we were talking about this. Apparently, the mommy world is very judgmental, according to Camille, she has a lot of problems with this and that. But honestly, their kids seem happy and healthy and normal, so you know what, I'm not going to judge them.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: She was worried about us, because of the fact that we are very negative towards the fact that Mike was neglected so much. I'm like this is not neglect.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: This is having a watchful eye, to make sure that they realize that they're competent and they can do things on their own, not like a good time to figure out how to use the washing machine.

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah.

CLIENT: It's just bring your laundry down. But it was just really good to see them. I think that we may have been trying to get secret down to say with either Rowland or Everett, or one of his other friends, without telling his family, because it was like night and day in terms of feeling better about ourselves. [00:17:28]

THERAPIST: It sounds that way. It seems like it was nice to it sounds like it felt like normal happy life.

CLIENT: Yeah. The only thing that was a little bit awkward was that our friends have slightly more expensive taste than we do, but they seem to be very much like, we want to pick up the check kind of thing, which is good, because we were a little worried. But that's pretty much the only difference, is they're at a slightly point in life. And again, this is not me jealous, this is just, they're in a different point in their lives right now.

THERAPIST: Yeah, they have kids and it's a different thing.

CLIENT: Not just that, but they have a more stable income. Both of them are highly placed in their companies they started; therefore, they have a lot more disposable income.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It's a little awkward but not too bad, but it's just nice to be around them.

THERAPIST: Good. Yeah, that's great. It seems like it really buoyed both of your spirits.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was nice because Rowland's parents were around, telling stories about Mike, like it was a family. There wasn't lots of people but it was family. Not always related but family, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:18:39]

CLIENT: So that was definitely helpful. I did have a whole lot less joint problems, just because the dry weather is easier on me, which was also good, but just making it back home again, because I took so much time off, having to take more like working again and more or less it's been a really big drain on me, but I'm trying to get back into balance again.

THERAPIST: When did you get back?

CLIENT: Wednesday night, and then I had to turn around and go back to work at 9:00 a.m. on Thursday. So late night Wednesday, and then I worked Thursday and Friday, which I usually never do, but because I took off time earlier in the week, I needed to make up the hours. And then I had Saturday off and then I worked Sunday, and I actually was not at work yesterday because I broke a tooth and I had to go to the dentist. [00:19:37]

THERAPIST: What happened?

CLIENT: I have Brux. I don't know if you know what that is, it's a fancy word for grinding one's teeth.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: I have done it for all of my life, like since before I had teeth. Apparently, my father does it too, amongst many other people in the family, and although I wear a night guard, and I even wear a night guard when I'm not sleeping, but just in high stress situations, over the years, I've slowly worn down my teeth, and so this one broke. Tomorrow, I have to get that taken care of. No, Thursday, I have to get it taken care of, but I had an emergency trip out there and then I've got more dental issues due to that, that have to be taken care of in the upcoming weeks. I apparently ground so much that I've got an infection in the root, and so I have to get like a root canal and a crown and all this other miscellaneous crap. It is worse now because I am stressed out, but I have always been like that. I think it's a more natural tendency than just stress, so. [00:20:50]

THERAPIST: Gosh. Not in person, but different in a few different ways, for having felt better during most of the trip.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm handling the crap better.

THERAPIST: Happier, more focused and can think. Yeah.

CLIENT: For the most part. I've had some lower spots but definitely, I feel a lot better. I am a little worried in general, just because I was told how different my personality was when I was in Kentucky.

THERAPIST: Meaning?

CLIENT: Seeming less outgoing, that kind of thing, by people who haven't seen me in a decade.

THERAPIST: By your friends?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Who said you seemed less outgoing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I feel like I'm getting more outgoing, but I guess they just didn't see how badly things got, you know? Just, I haven't seen them in a decade, you know? [00:21:56]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Which is, you know, yeah. I got some, some interesting, I'm going to say conversations, that probably a few months back, I probably would have cried at or at least gotten angry with. Now I'm just sort of passively taking it. I had more than one person who was deeply concerned about the weight that I've gained. They also again, for me it's instantaneous to them. It did happen very quickly, but I've had it for several years now, but it happened very quickly, over a series of just a few months.

THERAPIST: From the drugs?

CLIENT: From the drugs, yeah, but you know, I've had two people specifically talk about their deep concern or alarm, over how much weight I gained. Not in a mean way, as in like can this be bad for your arthritis or what's happening with your life that this has happened so quickly.

THERAPIST: Right, just worried about you in a good way. [00:23:05]

CLIENT: Yeah. I would have probably taken it badly though, because I get a lot of fake concern from people who don't know me, but this seemed actually genuine. There's a lot of fake concern about how dangerous my obesity is. I get a lot of people who like literally just met me at the Store, tell me, I need to -

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: They don't know the situation.

THERAPIST: How do you feel about having gained the weight?

CLIENT: I hate it, I hate it, I hate it in so many ways. I hate it because I feel like I'm literally walking around with a backpack full of bricks. I am almost double the weight that I used to be. I hate it because every time I walk by a mirror I get startled, because I don't recognize who that is, and I've had this weight on me for six, seven years now, since I started, but it happened all so quickly. I still don't see myself in that person. So, I hate everything about it. I hate having to shop for clothing, I have the fact that literally, it's exhausting to carry it around. It's not even I will say a lot, at least half of it is vanity. [00:24:28]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But an awful lot, even more than that, is definitely the fact that it's a burden to deal with. I don't feel like that is who I am, and so... I don't know. I'm worn down by doctors being like, giving me trouble about my weight. I need to find a new gynecologist, because this new one specifically, although my weight has stabilized pretty much, this one feels as if the birth control that I was on for the last one, is not nearly as effective for my weight and decided to take me off of it, so therefore, I'm on nothing at all. So, yeah, so I have to find somebody else who doesn't understand how unethical it is to basically kind of put me in that kind of libido libido, I can't believe I said that limbo, which ruins one's libido, you know? [00:25:39]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I am not judgmental about anybody else, but I detest everything about it. It's a burden. It also was tearing my joints apart. I know that if I could lose a lot of the weight, that the effects of my body, on some of my joints, specifically the one in my hip, would be significantly improved, because although the joint is being torn apart, it's also a weight bearing joint and therefore, it's pushing it a lot further, whereas my elbows didn't have as much of a problem. But yeah, you know, it's... it's weird, like I said. I am exposed to a lot of people who do a lot of weird, like diet related things, and I feel like I can't because I am fat, I cannot tell them what a bunch of bunk this is, you know? [00:26:56]

THERAPIST: I see. You just don't have credibility when it comes to that.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, I just keep my mouth shut, which is fine, but you know, for example, when we were at Mike's family's house, they are doing very strong Atkins related things. I don't know if I explained to you that back in 2004, I almost lost my mom, she almost died.

THERAPIST: Oh, no, I don't think you did.

CLIENT: Yeah. She was in the hospital for months, and in this day and age, that doesn't happen any more. She, due to things related to Atkins, her kidneys shut down completely, like she was on dialysis.

THERAPIST: Whoa.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because she was on the Atkins diet, that fucked up her kidneys?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, about a year, her kidneys could no longer process the... what's it called, acid, that puts you into whatever. There's like this thing, like the thing that makes you burn the so you go into ketosis, whatever. It's actually a very dangerous situation to be in.

THERAPIST: Apparently. [00:28:11]

CLIENT: Very dangerous. She was on a very high protein and it wasn't just the Atkins diet. When you have like excessively high protein and potentially health problems, it mixed together and she thought she had like stomach flu, it wasn't that at all. Her kidneys stopped functioning and she yeah. She had been working around with kidneys that weren't functioning for a long time, not knowing any better, and she got cranky. Actually, it's the period of time where her and I had the most conflict ever, but walking out of it, my husband says she became a much nicer person. I think she did too, the brush with death, but I think that it also let us set aside the stupid things. I would be contrary, just for the sake of being contrary, like I would say something like mom, you just told me a tautology, you know, that kind of stuff, like you told me two things that -

THERAPIST: Right. [00:29:10]

CLIENT: Yeah. I would just be contrary for the sake of being contrary, and then she would get all like blah-blah-blah, and then we'd just like get bickery about it. We stopped doing that because it's stupid. We both know we're smart and like me, I was trying to point out, at that point in my life, like I would do things just to show I'm smart. I would prove, by a syllogism, that what she's saying is -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then she would be like oh well, if we go from this point of view. It was just academic, patting ourselves on the back, but also being contrary about things. We stopped doing that. I mean, we'll be playful about certain things but that's about it. But she it was really, really bad. So, in certain situations like that, I just in general, just like to keep my mouth shut. I wanted to say something about that kind of stuff, but whatever I say, they'll decide it's anecdotal evidence. That being said, Dr. Atkins died from a heart attack of his own, like diet.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:30:18]

CLIENT: You know, we're not meant, as creatures, to eat that much protein, but again, I have like obviously, because I am double the weight I used to be. I have no credibility and obviously, I'm going home to eat Cheetos with ice cream on top for breakfast every day. That's obvious, you know? But, I see a lot of fad related crap that, you know, I'm just like, it's easier for me just to keep my mouth shut.

THERAPIST: Too bad in a way, because my impression is that there's another side of you that doesn't really like keeping her mouth shut.

CLIENT: No, not even close, but at the same time, I'm deciding -

THERAPIST: It has practical value, I'm not beating it at all.

CLIENT: No, actually on some level, I'm thinking this makes me more grown up, because me at 18 or even 22, could not keep my mouth shut when I knew the answer was I was hearing something that was absolutely wrong. It's now hard but, you know, it's better for me just to do so because e even now, when I act my own genuine self, I get reprimanded in my own ways, of like, you know, I get pulled back in. So I just need to occasionally learn how to just keep my mouth shut. At dinner, Mike's family, they were discussing people's birthdays and how most people's birthdays are in Mike's sister's family, all are in the spring. And I guess I just, I did not keep myself guarded and I said, "Really?" And she's like, "Are you judging?" And I'm like, "No, no I'm not judging, I didn't mean to." She's like, "I think you're judging." I just didn't to be honest, I'm an only child, so I never really thought about the fact that like, this kind of thing never dawned on me, that if everyone is getting a birthday present and he doesn't have a birthday, that he has to get a birthday present too. [00:32:57]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I guess. I don't know. Honestly, I hadn't processed it enough.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I may judge, but I hadn't gotten that far to judge yet.

THERAPIST: Okay, right.

CLIENT: You know? I didn't even know this was a possibility. Not a possibility, but you know what I mean, I just...

THERAPIST: Right. You were responding to the novelty.

CLIENT: Of the concept, yeah. So I've got to keep myself better in check because obviously, my naiveté on some levels is getting me in trouble still. (pause) There's a lot about the world I just don't have a window into and didn't even know was out there, so, and I tend to put my foot in my mouth on that kind of thing. (pause) Usually, there are things based upon people's lifestyles, that I didn't even know were possible, and I make a complete idiot of myself.

THERAPIST: How so? [00:34:47]

CLIENT: A good example. My sister in-law's ex-husband, apparently he has met some people on the Internet that he has a polyamorous relationship with. At this point in time, I had never heard that phrase before. I kind of knew what this was but I didn't really process it, and so in my head, I heard the word polygamy and was like, "He's got multiple wives over the Internet?" Like that kind of put my foot in my mouth kind of thing.

THERAPIST: But you didn't know what that meant. Putting your foot in your mouth would be like, to me, it could have...

CLIENT: Now mind you, I am judging him at this point, because I think it's a really bad idea to have a revolving his children having a revolving group of almost like a harem of women, coming and going, and their relationships especially, because he has two daughters who are right now at that one of them right now, like in puberty. I think it's really hard for them to be able to have these relationships with these women, having them come and go. I am judging him on that, but not because of his own personal morality. I think that it's [00:36:02]

THERAPIST: Right. You're thinking about his children.

CLIENT: Yeah, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But that's just I hadn't even gotten to the point. I'm like, I haven't even gotten to the point of judging him on that one.

THERAPIST: You're trying to get the semantics in a sense.

CLIENT: Yeah, but it seems that I didn't even realize. I think at the time that this particular thing went down, that I actually didn't I had never heard the word before. I do remember saying well, that can't be a real word, because one half of it's Greek and one half of it's Latin; they don't make words like that. It is true.

THERAPIST: I believe you.

CLIENT: But, like even in my own head, I wasn't believing that this was a real thing, like as in a word, but everybody knew about it, but I didn't know about it. Not because I'm saying that there's anything wrong with it. I mean, there might be, there might not be, but the point was, I hadn't even friggin heard of it yet, so I hadn't even had gotten to the point of judging. It's funny.

THERAPIST: It's like you're not all that used to not knowing things. [00:37:11]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it just feels kind of funny or uncomfortable when you don't.

CLIENT: The thing else is that not only am I not all that used to not knowing things. I consider myself exceptionally well read but apparently, like the books I read don't really explore this concept. I consider myself, you know, I have a pretty big vocabulary, but when it comes to nontraditional families, I guess I just don't know much about it at all. The only person I knew whose parents were divorced, growing up with my friend Bryant. That was it and that wasn't like a big thing, I mean it wasn't like he was never even a social pariah because of it. It just wasn't that common, or at least if it was, I didn't know about it. Maybe it's just because I didn't overly explore other people's parental relationships, but I didn't really think about it really, and so now, when all these things are kind of important to know about, I haven't really spent a lot of time introspectively thinking about such things or knowing about these things. And it is true, not know about things, like not knowing that something is a thing, is embarrassing, yeah, to me, but also, like at the same time also, on some level, being called out. Because it usually happens when it comes to something that's a social related thing like that. I don't want to be considered to be judgmental, because that's obviously bad, having judgments. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:38:57]

CLIENT: And I do occasionally say things that are can be interpreted as being really insensitive, but what I'm really trying to do is get to the thick of the point. When discussing with people, like people ask questions about adoption and things, and in the back of my head, now I'm thinking about adoption profile books and things like that, and then I always ask questions about it and I explain to them that the way that you portray yourself to a potential mother is really different than you would actually portray yourself to anybody else. And it usually comes down to me explaining to them, they're 16 year-old and pregnant, they're not really good at making good decisions anyways, so what they consider to be a good I mean, I don't mean to be judgmental, but obviously, they got themselves into this situation, they're not really good at looking at decisions and outcomes anyways, so what appeals to them is not necessarily the right because they always ask questions like why are you focusing on this? I'm like well, because it's what they like, they want to see that kind of stuff. So again, foot in my mouth, it sounds like I'm being really judgmental. Maybe I am. I'm not saying they're bad people. I'm just saying that, you know? I am using Bayesian logic to be able to say based upon the fact that there was a series of decisions that the outcome came as this. If I flip you know, in the world of flipping coins, if it constantly comes up tails, if you use Bayesian stuff, in theory it's probably going to come back up tails again. [00:40:29]

THERAPIST: Ah-huh.

CLIENT: It's not the way the real world works, but I mean it sort of does but...

THERAPIST: Sometimes it does.

CLIENT: Sometimes. In certain situations it does.

THERAPIST: Sure. It sounds like a new behavior.

CLIENT: I want to be a kind, open minded person, I really am, I do, but sometimes things I say don't really come off as being that way. (pause) So, yeah, maybe I worry too much about what other people think, but you know what? I spent some time being naïve and not caring what people thing, and boy it got me in some really big fucking problems, with my in-laws at least, but occasionally with other people. More often than not my in-laws, but sometimes other people get upset too, and so now I have to be hyper-vigilant about it because I don't want to back myself into a situation that I can't not just can't get out of, but don't necessarily know that I'm in, the whole time. [00:41:48]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And this is the kind of thing that when I show myself, I think I've told you that my stepmother in-law likes to use psychological phrases to make me feel bad about myself. It's almost like a punishment, because she works in this world. And so she would say things like oh, well you have Aspergers like tendencies for this, or oh, you have bipolar tendencies, because you're passionate about that, or oh, you have this. I know what's socially wrong and what's not socially wrong, but sometimes I just actually don't know what the word means, you know? And I felt bad and it makes me really not want to talk about stuff any more, because the last thing I want to do is get like whatever profile she's giving me of the week, on things that are bad in the DSM, you know, it's really shitty to have to live with that. (pause) It is really shitty. I wish I knew how to deal with that, you know? [00:43:24]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's for the most part, something that I would like to understand better about you, is how the opinions of people, whose opinions and views you know you can't trust, can carry so much weight with you and be so hurtful. It's not that it doesn't often happen. I just wonder how that works.

CLIENT: Part of it because of the fact that she's able to influence others, people I haven't met, like you know, people that I'm just meeting in the family and they already have heard these things about me. Therefore, I don't even get a chance. People I've never even known, when I'm meeting them for the first time, I have to overcome what's being said. That's part of it, that's a good, big part of it.

THERAPIST: We need to stop for now. I'll see you on Thursday? [00:44:25]

CLIENT: I believe not. I think we were stopping Thursdays, we talked about that.

THERAPIST: No, no, I didn't know. I think you said when you got back, you were going to let me know about PT, your schedule.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, I'm going to be stopping Thursdays, so I can get PT. So at least for the next couple of months, is that okay?

THERAPIST: It's up to you, whatever you want to do.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: All right, then I'll see you Tuesday.

CLIENT: I'll see you Tuesday, and then obviously, if someone picks up that spot, I understand.

THERAPIST: Sure. Let's talk about that and try to figure that out, but I've got to do a new schedule.

CLIENT: Okay. I appreciate that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: If this is too little notice, I can make it though.

THERAPIST: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT