TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (sigh) Oh gosh. This is usually the end of my week but it's not at this point [that way] (ph). Work needs me to come in for a really, really long day Thursday.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: It's a coverage thing. There's stuff going on. And due to the fact that we spent a lot of money recently, you know, life I think is probably easier just to, you know, work it.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I am sort of concerned that, because things are not completely and totally falling apart crisis-wise, that I'm sort of indoctrinating myself into believing that everything is okay again. Does that make sense? Like I do this. I do these pep talks to myself, "Everything is going to be okay. It's going to be fine. You're just exhausted." Or, "Just keep going. Everything is fine." [00:01:08]

And it's just sort of a natural instinct for me to do that. You know? Partially because of the fact that I want to be hopeful. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't feel like I'm in super denial or anything like that. I just, you know, I try and sort of down play, you know, when things are not so bad, you know, how I'm feeling or how things are going. You know? (pause) And it's really hard for me not to because it's just -

THERAPIST: [There's two things there. It's sort of you find something] (ph) to keep your spirits up.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: And avoiding what you're really feeling. [00:02:13]

CLIENT: It's not even just avoiding. I mean part of it is the fact that, well, I mean relative to what? You know. I'm doing pretty good relative to being in the hospital and, you know, (sound of cell phone alert) wandering around completely exhausted, yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? That's part of it. I mean it still the quality of life is really crap. But also the fact that, quite frankly, it's, you know, it's partly just trying to pick up my mood by insisting that things are doing a lot better than they are. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It does happen. (pause) But, you now, it's just sort of progress, I guess. Sort of. I don't know. It's hard. It's really hard for me because it's like I have a million little annoying things that are just, you know, wearing away at me, but any one of them is not that big of a deal but altogether. [00:03:21]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? It's, you know, a lot more than I can really handle. So (pause) I just feel like sometimes I just let, like keep this going until the point where things are completely and totally impossible for me to cope. And that's when I sort of, kind of break down. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: The other day, I guess it was not really that other day, but it was like late last week, I was just, my arthritis was killing me and I had all this other stuff going on, and I had to get to the dentist, and this and that. And I was just feeling like all I want to do is have a meltdown like a toddler. You know?

And Mike's giving me choices of this or that. And finally after the fact of that I (inaudible at 00:04:22) like, "If I get to this point where I get to this point, don't give me choices. Tell me, ‘You need this. You need that.' Just pick one or the other at that point because what's happening is, is even having ‘a' or ‘b' -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: you know? ‘Do you want me to walk with you to the dentist or do you want me to call you a taxi?'" That choice is more than I can really handle at that point. You know? And I think he kind of gets it that, it's not all time, but sometimes you just [devolve to it.] (ph) It doesn't really matter what the choice is.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's just something -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: not to have to think of because I'm already extremely foggy brained and trying to keep going.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: And I'm sort of coping with just like a lot of little things like a bunch of my medications went generic. Which sounds great, sort of, but the coating on them aren't quite I mean they're exactly the same but the coatings aren't quite the same so when you take the dose so that things are going okay it sort of still kind of, for the past few days been kind of funky. [00:05:37]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And so it's sort of just trying to figure all that out and figure out if it is okay for it to be generic. You know? For me I don't normally care, but I think some of the things for the timing isn't quite right. So if I know, okay, well this is going to happen at this point, then I need to plan for this or that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? But and, you know, it's just a lot of juggling, I guess, is what I'm just trying to say. And I'm just really exhausted. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I'm not sure if I talked about this yet or not, but Mike's kind of going through this, I don't know how to explain it. Every way that I can think of to explain is easily sounds almost like pejorative. (laughs) [00:06:50]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: He's realizing that he's just not having a lot of success with his work. He was actually going to work on a regular basis, sort of. Yeah. Not to the level he should be but I'm pretty sure he's going there every day. And I'm actually pretty sure he's there for more than a few hours, I think. I don't really have the energy or the desire to spy on him to find out. You know?

But he met with his advisor and a lot of the things that I had sort of implied to him, and I don't want it to be "I told you so," dance, is true. That he's just not coming up with things on his own. He's acting more like a tech, less like a principal investigator and, you know, this and that. You know, he's not thinking and innovating driving concepts. You know? Just doing what you're told is not enough. [00:07:56]

But, you know, if this experiment doesn't work then, you know, repeat it. Or, you know, you should be spending more time with journals or this. And he's getting really upset when somebody scoops something he does.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But, you know what, he's been really, really moving at all only at glacier speeds for certain stuff. So it's like I don't know what to say. You know? And (inaudible at 00:08:19), "Okay, well that is true but this is on a different scale." Or, you know, he needs to be prepared when he walks in.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And he always had advisors that are very, very laissez faire. Like, "Come on in. We're going to this but with a chalkboard." Whereas, this particular one she sent the night before PowerPoint slides for the meeting.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah.

CLIENT: That kind of stuff. I mean graphs and figures and this. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I don't think he really gets it as much. So now because of that I think he wants to bail out to industry.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: But he doesn't see it that way. Like he thinks it's okay, "Well, I'm not suitable for this, therefore, I should look into industry."

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I really feel like I was overly harsh with him but I just don't think industry is really good for him, because the type of lifestyle that he wants to lead is not like with industry. Like not making it to work on a regular basis or having various times. You know? I mean above and beyond that too. You know? And in industry there's a lot more ambition than you would think. You know? [00:09:28]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's different ambition but there really is.

THERAPIST: Yes. Right.

CLIENT: And there's just so much about it that I just can't imagine he would be able to It just doesn't seem like he has the profile for it. But he's been going to lectures about what to do. You know, this kind of stuff. Like is consulting, is industry, is academia better for you? And he seems to think it's kind of a, this might be good fit.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: That being said, you know, that's fabulous but he needs to find himself a job -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: for that. And he's like, "Well, I want to make sure I finish this through project." Well, the minute you tell your boss that you're not thinking about it, they don't give a damn about the project. They're just going to dump you.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So you need to have an exit plan.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So if you think something is not working out but you want to follow through and see the end of it, that's great, it's philosophically. But they think if things aren't going to work out they would rather just cut that research thing -

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah.

CLIENT: immediately. So we'll see. It's kind of heartbreaking though because he's finally now feeling like he fits in, he knows people, he's getting, you know. He's finally warming up and feeling like this is, you know, he's comfortable. But yet at the same time he doesn't really like what he's doing and it (sigh) I don't have it in me to be able to handle a midlife crisis right now. [00:10:55]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I really don't. And I know, I mean it sounds so condescending but I know him better than a quiz about your, like sorting (ph) your temperaments or whatever, to know that these kinds of things Like I've worked in industry. I know what it's like. No, I haven't worked for XY, but I know what they are like and I used to do a lot of consulting.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And they would chew him up and spit him right back out. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: He's shy, he's this. You know, all these things that Academia really is much, much better suited for him.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like a lot better suited for him. Like, you know, he isn't the kind of person that usually strolls into work at noon, but if he was, I mean, that would be okay. But he's very erratic in that kind of stuff. You know? And wanting to be social about what you're researching. You know? And talking to people and things like that. And, you know, cross pollinate in terms of -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: "Oh, well I like this and this about that." That doesn't really happen that much in industry. [00:12:01]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: They do but it's very They actually have to force it to happen, even in the same part of the company. But other companies, absolutely not.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And so I just feel like it's a very strong thing. And at the same time it's like, well, that would potentially be a stable income, I guess. I don't know. Maybe. I mean, it would definitely be more income so that would be nice. But I'm not really sure. I don't know. I just have a lot of concerns. You know?

The way I see it is, is that, you know, if he really wants to do some industry stuff, get himself an academic appointment and do stuff with, you know, consulting on the side.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But then I think to myself, "Well, I can't really get him to do that because he's not really all that much doing work now, so maybe he's not going to "

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: It's so everything and so I just don't know what to do. And I feel bad because that makes it sound like he's totally like the kind of slacker that's sitting around playing video games all the time. He really isn't as bad as that. [00:13:05]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But at the same time, based upon owning a PhD, there's a different level of expectations as to what And also being at his age of, you know, what is stepping up and getting to a new bar on something. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I'm not bitter about trying to drive his career but I really wish that he saw it more that way.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like he had officially, on with the group the "blank on a chip." It's usually, "organs on a chip." Like they've done, "lung on a chip," and "spleen on a chip," and all this stuff. And he was talking he used to years ago work for the (inaudible at 00:13:49) Engineering, the (inaudible). And we talked about this idea of, well, maybe there might be something good for this.

And it's like, "Yeah, but I don't really know what would be applicable," I mean blah, blah, blah, "without doing this." And, you know, not wanting to just screw up this kind of thing. And finally I'm like, "Well, [Martin Morris] (ph), he's back, he's super ambitious but he's extremely discreet.

If you told him that you need him not This guy basically wants to be He's a grad student, but he's been a grad student on like the twenty year plan.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: He's working as a tech and taking a class a semester. It will take a very long time.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He's very loyal. He's very, like he sees it You know, Mike's worked with him before.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I know him very well.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, he's extremely discreet. If you told him, "Hey, you know, would you be willing to some brainstorming things since you're the person doing the histology you know, and I'm the engineer?" You know, this is not a collaboration but could you spend some time just thinking about what we could, you know, as a person who does histology -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:14:47), what would be a good application, you know, for this, you know, for these needs. That's what I tell him to do. And he's perfectly okay with doing it. I don't really want to tell him to do it but, you know, it is something that, you know, I see as a team sport in terms of helping him.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I don't I guess sometimes I need him to come and tell me when there's problems to do that. But at the same time I feel like weird that, you know, I'm the person that has to tell him these things all the time. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Not all the time. I mean, it's not my career and I'm telling him who to network with. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I don't want to seem like an egomaniac because I'm not, but one would think that these things would be immediately obvious, I guess. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't know. It's frustrating. And part of it is the fact that I have made it a point, except for not so much at this particular job, but made it a point of being socially and intellectually active with most of the places he worked that I have had some sort of professional relationship on some level with some of the people there. [00:16:05]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: He's worked with all these different places such that, you know, if I run into these people they know who I am. I have run into people from his old labs in Boston, you know, and they know who I am. And so I know enough about certain people's personality types enough that I can say, "This person is going to be discreet." Or, "This person is," you know, "this" or, you know, "that."

And I feel like I'm pretty, pretty dead on on most of them. And, I don't know. It's really frustrating. I don't want to live his life for him but I really wish that he could just see these things. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: There's so much in front of him, so many opportunities. (pause) [00:17:06]

THERAPIST: Well I imagine it's extremely frustrating alongside your own not being able to do a lot of things that you would like. I mean, for very different reasons.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is. But, you know what, I honestly If he was as involved -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: in his career as I am, I think that I'd be okay with it. You know? As engaged with it. I really do.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I sincerely thought that he was excited about the work he was doing. Apparently, I'm more excited about it than he is.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know? I think he's bored by it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. I see.

CLIENT: You know, it's really (pause) I guess it's really distressing. (pause) I just have to wonder on some level am I getting too engaged and interested in these things? But at the same time, well maybe, maybe not. I don't know. [00:18:39]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But, you know (sigh) I lived doing really, really boring jobs and I found ways to make them exciting. I made them exciting to me somehow.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And maybe I was just hoping that he would do the same.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So it's exhausting and frustrating.

THERAPIST: We need to stop. [I'm sorry.] (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah. Well thank you for holding as much as you could of the appointment.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure. I'm sorry (inaudible at 00:19:20).

CLIENT: Well, it happens. At least I can usually give you two hours' notice because that's how long it takes me to commute.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) My dream is to someday have a job that is only an hour away from my place that I live. Okay.

THERAPIST: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT