TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Oooh. (sigh) Well I'm trying to make some kind of change in my life. We got a (inaudible at 00:00:19) membership over at the Gym, which is still expensive but not that expensive as, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So let's see what, like sort of get my bearings before going in and doing stuff. So, we'll see. I really need to start swimming again. It's a lot easier on me, so.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I'm hoping that it'll be relatively easy to sort of work that into my routine. But, you know, it's just everything's just up and down, up and down. You know? (pause) (clears throat) But I think that (sigh), I don't know. I think overall (ph) it's a positive upswing. [00:01:24]

I briefly met with a startup who, this was just specifically because they were looking to do some, like a not really focus group, but like part focus-type stuff for people who have a lot of [arthritic thumbs] (ph) and so therefore they have to take a lot of medications.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And I sort of got a very, possibly kidding, very informal offer saying, "You know, if you'd like to change jobs that, you know, to look them up."

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: So I may see if they need someone to do some part time consulting at least.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So that would be kind of nice.

THERAPIST: Hm. What do they do?

CLIENT: They basically are starting a pharmacy that what they do is they send you, I think, a roll of these prepackaged things of your pills with your name, the date, the time on them so that you basically have better compliance to take multiple medications a day.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because I have about, eh, about six or so. Things like that. And so they were looking for people who have that kind of issue to talk to them about like their systems and things like that. [00:02:31]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And they got it at least going with a test group of a hundred people.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: So it's like basically all the things you have to take at seven a.m. are all packaged together. And this prepackage is printed and it has all the stuff on it.

THERAPIST: Right. I imagine it's especially for people who have like cognitive issues. That can be very helpful.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or even just like knowing that you have to like, you know, that you have to take this with this. And you need to have these things spaced apart.

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah.

CLIENT: Long term tracking to, especially with certain things like arthritis, you have to There really is a strong, like compliance is so strongly based with outcome. Like taking things a few hours late or taking things not (cross talking)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But some of them are like [part of the thing like] (ph) for breakfast for like five years -

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: is because like the thyroid medicine I take really cannot have, you know, calcium with it or whatever. [00:03:31]

THERAPIST: I see. What do you have for breakfast?

CLIENT: Oatmeal. And it can't be fortified oatmeal. And I occasionally then have other things, but not really. It's just a lot less complicated.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:03:48)

CLIENT: Yeah, it's just like everything kicks in with everything else. And so this looks like a really awesome product. I got to see some of the stuff. Like they eventually, just they weren't really planning to show it to me but they showed me a little bit of the product to get feedback for opening and for arthritis [testing too.] (ph) They're really trying to market this to people who have to take cocktails for pills.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I did show them some of the Like I've done some like life tracking related stuff. Like my sleep, my exercise, my pills, all that kind of stuff. And how I really feel like, you know, I really love looking at data sets and this and that. And like this is, I'm so not your customer but yet this stuff is fascinating to me.

And you know, I just spent more time than I was supposed to with them for my Amazon gift card that I would get like dorking out. And I think that they weren't entirely kidding like when they said that. So, you know, I may very well I'm going to give about a week or so though before like specifically calling up. [00:04:50]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I think I may very well ask them about that, because -

THERAPIST: What stage are they at?

CLIENT: Well they've got a hundred people in another state getting the stuff.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: They actually do have -

THERAPIST: Are they VC (ph) funded or Angel (ph) funded or ?

CLIENT: I don't know anything about that yet.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: However, their office is really nice.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I would think that they would have to be funded pretty well.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? So, hey, you know. But it would be nice to see, you know. Quite frankly, it's disturbing enough. Like I need money. I really need money right now. But I wouldn't mind putting like a half day in or, you know, two half days in a week for free just for the intellectual stimulation of, you know, talking about the product, about this and that. You know? [00:05:47]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I love that stuff. So I wouldn't say that to them like I would do it for free.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But I probably would. It would just be nice to do that, so And like I would, as soon as they can get a license for here, I told them like, "Hey, you understand like there is a cost above and beyond the cost of the prescriptions with your co-pays for this." But it is something that -

THERAPIST: Sure. Obviously, [they're going to use their model.] (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But the actual, you know, it is something that can be They've had successful, what's it called, flexible spending reimbursed.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's great.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, you know, the additional amount per month, you know -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: may or may not actually, if it's being all mailed to you and all that stuff -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: may actually be, you know, fairly good.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I would be okay with that. You know? Having everything put into little plastic bags. [00:06:53]

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And the funny thing is that like just talking to them, there are things that they have never You can tell, like one of them his girlfriend has a chronic illness. And neither one of them have actually experienced chronic illness. Because I'm like, "So, if you," and I just like, they're trying repackaging this, and I'm like, "Well if I have something like this in pocket and I put it through the washing machine, this looks like it wouldn't actually, I mean I wouldn't go and use the pills, but they wouldn't fuse to my pants, like [with the pills.] (ph)"

And they're like, "We never even thought about we should put this through the washing machine." I'm like, "You just don't know, do you?"

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: You have no idea! (laughs) Like, "This is the kind of stuff that you need to know."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I kind of feel weird because this is not at all Like because I have a background a little bit in this and product development, I know a lot about like what kind of things to even look at.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But it's kind of weird a thing.

THERAPIST: [This being] two people right now?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: They are part of a larger office of many startups.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So it's very hard to know any other information. Mostly they were paying me to interview me about my strategy for making sure I'm complying with my medications. [00:08:04]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And once they realized I knew a lot about this kind of stuff, then they divulged a whole lot more. So it was kind of nice.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's cool.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: [I hope it goes somewhere.] (ph)

CLIENT: It would. Even if it's just getting my pills mailed me in little baggies would be awesome. So that was good. And work is going okay. I've got some things I need to get finished up but it just, you know. I am becoming easily, very easily, seeing like certain things wearing thin on me and so I think I may need to I don't know what I need to do.

I need to either spend less time around certain customers or something. So I usually am known for a lot of patience. And I had some people really, really push my buttons. [00:09:05]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it's really hard for me to let it go sometimes. You know?

THERAPIST: What happened?

CLIENT: Nothing huge. Like over the Fourth of July holiday I was checking on some people. This guy comes in with his laptop and he's like, "I need to get some keys replaced," blah, blah, blah. I told him that the earliest we could see him was in about two and a half hours from now. He's like, "But I just need a second." I'm like, "But there are all these people around that have appointments before you."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And he's like, "Could you make an exception?" I'm like, "No, I really can't." And he's like, "But it will only take a second." And I said, "Actually, it's really not just snapping on the keys. There's actually some things that need to be [woven through.] (ph) There's a lot more than that. And it may not be just a key." And he's like, "Can't you just give me " "No," I just can't give you the keys."

And instead of like trying to make an appointment. So he just kept coming back. And he's been to the store a couple of times. He refuses to make an appointment because he believes that he is going to get walk in service eventually. [00:10:13]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I've worked for Microsoft since 2002. We've never, ever Like the apocalypse will come and there will be people coming to get things fixed. So, he's just like, "Well how do I get you to say ‘yes' to what I want?" Like literally, he's like, "How do I get you to say ‘yes' to my request." And at some point I probably just broke down and said, "Sir, I have no way of speeding up the time -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: " to make this happen for you. But I just cannot do this."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That kind of stuff. You know? And normally I can just like, "Wow, that's really annoying," and just sort go on about things. But lately it's been really, that kind of stuff has really been ruffling me. You know?

You know, teaching somebody who has decided before I've even sat down you know, with spreadsheets you know, that I can't teach them anything. Like obviously by my appearance I don't know what I'm talking about. That kind of stuff too. [00:11:15]

I think it's because I'm a girl. But I really don't believe that really happens anymore, but the personality of the former construction worker who now owns a construction company, it's like, you know, "What can this kid teach me."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's very To me it's so foreign to actually have this experience. Although it's happened occasionally, that it's just so bizarre that I -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So he's like, "You can't do this." I'm like, "Try me." And like eventually I almost said to him, "I have a T-shirt that says, ‘I heart math.' Come get some."

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs) You know? It's like you really can't You can't know who (inaudible at 00:11:58). I'm like, "Trust me. Try me."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like, "Start asking questions. I can help you with this."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (laughs) "But you can't " "Yes, I can."

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: "Stop telling me what I can't do and tell me what your questions are."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I guess I'm just delightfully privileged enough that I've never actually experienced that. I don't know if its chauvinism, I don't know if it's ageism. I don't know what it is. But I didn't really want to get that in depth with it either to find out.

THERAPIST: Sure. Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. But I do occasionally get that, you know, "What can you teach me thing." And I'm like, "Well, try me." But lately just the little things like that have just been driving me more crazy than usual. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I don't know. The problem is, is that I don't know if it's, it's a couple of different things, that I don't know if it's in my head or if it's actually something that's going on with me like chemically. I have had changes to my thyroid, which while you're adjusting does do a lot of well documented mood changes. Like short tempered, that kind of thing. Where you start breaking out in acne. [00:13:15]

I mean there's a whole bunch of things like while your body reregulates it. And people get very volatile. I know it's not as bad as when I'm like on hardcore steroids, where like I have a very, very short fuse. But I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I don't It's frustrating not being able to control so much about my life. You know? I'd like to be able to. I mean, I understand spontaneity but I'd like to be able to at least very specifically decide what's going to be spontaneity. It sounds stupid, but it really isn't. The idea that there are things that I will not control and because of that, you know, these are designated, these are perfectly okay. [00:14:11]

Like for me, sometimes when we're on vacation if we get lost, I don't care. I'm like, as long as we're back by Sunday there's really not a big deal. You know? That kind of stuff I'm okay with. It's just the But I don't Like at the same time saying that, like being adventurous, I went over to first to see where the walkers were and like where everything was so I knew exactly what to expect when I went in there to work out.

Like it's not really I mean it is definitely categorizable, but there's definitely things that I don't want to, I want to be able to be very mindless about. I don't want to think about it. Like I want to be able to control that kind of stuff. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I don't know if it's a personal flaw that I need to figure out how to just break that of myself, or if it's just something that -

THERAPIST: Well, is it a problem?

CLIENT: Yeah. Sometimes. I mean [00:15:19]

THERAPIST: Like with what?

CLIENT: Life, in general, being like You know, flexibility I was talking about I sometimes can be, you know. Oh. I'm trying to think about things that I can control that I find to be (pause) There are things that I will do, choices I will make that because the person is, or dealing with the people in general, aren't Basically, if things are complicated or difficult that I will just skip doing. Like certain stores that I won't go into.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? Certain places that I like the food but trying to talk to the people on the phone to get take out is just such a pain in the ass -

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: that I won't do it. [00:16:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: You know? I don't know how much I mean it's a little bit, but every so often I have a meltdown and I just lose it over situations where I want to have a certain outcome. And it's not like, "I want my way, God damn it," all the time, but it's definitely a, I need to know what I can do to have my way. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I need to know like, okay, if I do this, then this will happen.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: With some degree of predictability.

CLIENT: Yeah. So. (pause) And that's, you know, to me I really like that, but also, you know, I don't know. So, okay, for example, like This has probably nothing to do with this at all, but I do need to talk about it anyways. Like there are certain situations where I know something will drive, like something will [00:17:42]

I'm going to switch subjects because when thinking about this, this popped up. And although it doesn't really have anything to do with this, I definitely want to talk about it.

THERAPIST: Sure. Go ahead.

CLIENT: I think I might have mentioned the fact that my friend's getting married to somebody who is going to beat her into being indicted eventually.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (cross talking at 00:17:58)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. He's very sketchy.

CLIENT: So I'm trying to be really supportive though.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Now there are two weddings, not one wedding. Both of them are at really inconvenient times for me, but I'm going to go to both I guess. And I asked her, "I said, you know, are you registered somewhere?" Like because I was wrong for the first one.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: What do you need?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well he registered them for this site where I can invest in their business. That's what they want for a wedding gift. Like everybody. Not just me. Everybody.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I find this to be so amazingly tacky.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I understand like these kind of things where like it's like a, "Invest towards our honeymoon, invest towards our house," that kind of thing. When you're really young and you don't have everything going for you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But invest in your business? Like that's what the picture is of things like that. You know? There's a couple of other things too like that. But they're all like kind of scammy type They're things that like, I'm not just like, "Ask for a vacuum cleaner." I'm okay with like, you know, something that's much more open ended. [00:19:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't mind, you know, that kind of thing. But it's so upsetting. I haven't even told Mike yet about this whole thing because that will just drive him crazy too. Because more than someone who says like, "Invest in our sketchy business."

THERAPIST: And also like this is about their work lives, it's not about, I mean -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If it's for like a honeymoon. You now, or okay, fine, you know, a honeymoon, sure. Some would say, "Oh it's a couple-y thing and it's a wedding related thing," and it's sort of you can somewhat feel good about that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Whereas, "Invest in my sketchy business," is kind of everything that's bad about the relationship.

CLIENT: Even if it was like, "Invest in my idea." If it were something like, you know, a couple of engineers who dream about learning to build boats.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And invest in like something so that they could be able to learn about how to You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I see. Like there's more fun and sort of whimsical and -

CLIENT: Yeah. I can also feel more comfortable with that too. It sounds so weird, but this doesn't sound anything at all like a relationship building contribution. [00:20:20]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I think. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Absolutely.

CLIENT: Like even if it was business related and it was something very different -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I think I'd be okay. The sketchiness is even weirder.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And like rings a whole lot more bells. And the fact there is going two weddings is weird.

THERAPIST: Why are there two weddings?

CLIENT: I have not a clue in the world.

THERAPIST: Okay. It's not like in two different geographical places.

CLIENT: They're both in their backyard. I think one of them is actually legal and one of them is not, my guess. Originally apparently Drew's (ph) aunt was going to marry them over like getting some like certificate on the Internet.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I'm thinking that maybe after they planned that they realized that that's not going to pan out.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or perhaps the type of ceremony they want is actually not legally binding.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: It's also could be, I mean their parents are coming in to town. It could be that the one thing is not especially parent appropriate.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Like, I don't know. I have friends that have been really out there. Like they got married naked kind of thing. And they may not want to do that in front of parents.

THERAPIST: Sure. Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And it's like this whole like pagan, like this whole thing. [00:21:27]

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: And then they went and got married in a Catholic church for Mom and Dad.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I don't have enough information about either to really know. I know that one of them is on a Thursday and one of them is on a Sunday, and both of them are in their back yard.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. The invitation on one of them says it's in the backyard. They said, Penny said It's so Everything about thing about this is so darn (inaudible at 00:21:56). I mean, I understand the second wedding and all.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like things are going to be super informal.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I'm not getting a whole lot of information about this whole thing at all. But it's really weird and so I'm not really sure what I'm going to do yet. I think, I have this really, I have this great idea for something super meaningful. But at the same time I feel really dishonest giving them something meaningful when I don't really approve of the whole thing. But I may just do it anyways.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [What are you thinking?] (ph)

CLIENT: So there are a couple places, a couple of people on Etsy that do these beautiful different things, jewelry, key chains, things like that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: What they do is they take the literal latitude and longitude, the whole big numbers thing, of wherever you got married or whatever onto it and do it nicely engraved on a key chain.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And then flip it over, the date.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And something like that. I'm thinking about doing something like that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? Something that they can have.

THERAPIST: Yeah, instead of something (inaudible 00:23:05).

CLIENT: Yeah. So, you know, that way I can find out the exact, you know, GPS coordinates of that and, you know, put it on there. I think that's kind of sweet.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I feel really dishonest. Does that sound so cheesy? That's just so me. I feel dishonest doing something so sentimental, when not only do I not necessarily Like I don't approve the union, like, and I don't know. I'm standing up for her. I wanted to be there. I also kind of want to be around in the event she decides to ditch. This is not the only reason why I'm going. You know?

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But I do I have perfectly planned it. I'm not going to break it up. I'm not going to sabotage anything. I'm not saying this [to say it,] (ph) but I'm not.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But if at the last minute she's like, "Do that with me." I'm like, "Okay, let's go get a taxi." You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You can stay at my house. That's fine.

THERAPIST: When is it?

CLIENT: I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: When is it?

CLIENT: The first one is on the sixth of June and the second one is on the ninth of June.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:24:04)

CLIENT: Yeah. And it's also, yeah, it's like super inconvenient too because it's around my anniversary. So like I had planned, instead of going out for our anniversary we're going to do the wedding thing sort of. I don't know. It's really inconvenient.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I got a great hat for it though.

THERAPIST: Oh that's good.

CLIENT: (laughs) It's important.

THERAPIST: (laughs) There you go.

CLIENT: She's the kind of friend that I can actually wear all my like fashioneer (ph) type hats that I've worn to stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And no one would think it was weird.

THERAPIST: Well what kind of hat is it?

CLIENT: A fashioneer (ph) is something that's like a disk and kind of like a little veil.

THERAPIST: Oh. Okay.

CLIENT: It's like it's turned on the head.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I've got stuff like that.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And she's the kind of friend that I can bust that out. Actually, she was kind of friend that when we went to a funeral we could be wearing veils and things like that. When I say "veils," like these little things you put in your hair.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. She's very That's the great thing about certain things, she's so whimsical about most things -

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: that like it's really great. But also like this is so unstructured. It's even unstructured for her. [00:25:10]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: It's like this is really, really unstructured. I don't know what's going to happen. When we came to visit them for Christmas they had no food in the house. This is, like to give you an idea, like they now own a restaurant. They had no food in the house. This is not like I've never known her to cook. So I have no idea what I'm walking into this town (ph) to experience here.

THERAPIST: Right. Right.

CLIENT: Like I said, I have never known her to cook. I have never even, aside from a cup of tea, never seen her cook.

THERAPIST: Right. Right.

CLIENT: I mean I know she loves wine and I know she has a small (inaudible 00:25:41) at license now. Like a pretty advanced one.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: She can like (inaudible) off like champagne bottles and stuff.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I mean with the store I kind of got it. But have you heard about the whole controversy about this place that made it on TV about kitchen nightmares, and how there's like a meltdown on the Internet?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Apparently, there's this place that was on TV. They had like this giant Internet meltdown and they kept like they started swearing and like attacking people and then like making prank phone calls. This was like a cheaper Internet implosion. I see this kind of thing happening.

THERAPIST: What's this place?

CLIENT: This little place called Amy's Baking Company. Nothing related to them, but about two weeks ago it made on all the news shows.

THERAPIST: Was this the thing about there was some reality show -

CLIENT: Yup. Exactly.

THERAPIST: where somebody went who goes on and like tries to fix up restaurants.

CLIENT: Yup.

THERAPIST: And went on this one and the wife was sort of, at least the way I heard it, the wife was sort of an nightmare but the husband wouldn't confront her. So the guy actually just left. He's like, "You know, I'm really poor, but I'm not going to help you." [00:26:50]

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. I can see this happening.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Different gender roles swapped. You know? But you know what I mean? But I can totally, totally see this kind of thing happen and [at it's heartbeat] (ph) everything to do with it. So I don't want it to happen, but I don't, you know, it's so strange, but at the same time, it's like, I don't know.

Like I said, this about control things again too a little bit. You know? It's like, you know, "I want to buy you something." Well I guess if, in theory, if I want to buy you something, I guess that means that like, but I don't want to be buying I think that it would have been easier if she said just, you know, "Right now, things are going kind of funny. Can you make it cash "

THERAPIST: Or a check.

CLIENT: or a check.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: If she just said that, like especially with like his investment business and all this other stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "I would rather have a check."

THERAPIST: Some people do that for weddings.

CLIENT: Of course. Of course. Absolutely.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That would have been fine. I think that that, and if the money went there, I probably would have been upset. But you know what? Not my business at that point. [00:28:05]

THERAPIST: Right. You just can't do this.

CLIENT: I just can't do this.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, and I won't do it. It's so funny how I make a joke about the fact that, you know, she can afford to drink much better wine than I can. You know? I'm drinking the equivalent of Two Buck Chuck.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And, you know, she's not obviously. But it's, you know, it is what it is but, you know. I'll probably do something. Again something that I would do that's planned out that's very meaningful.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I feel kind of dishonest doing something meaningful but isn't necessarily so. Like doing this whole like, you know, putting something nice about the wedding. I don't know why. It just seems dishonest to me. Again, to do something that's really inexpensive but very meaningful as a gift, the keychain with the GPS stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I feel, I mean I think it's the perfect gift if I vaguely approved the marriage. But I don't, but I'm probably going to go through with it anyways. [00:29:13]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I feel guilty about doing something that's sentimental when I have nothing that's sentimental about it.

THERAPIST: I see. But if you felt better about him and them as a couple -

CLIENT: Yeah, anything about him.

THERAPIST: Then you'd be fine. I see.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'd be okay with it. But I feel so uncomfortable.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I'm not boycotting it either.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I'm just, I am at all times willing to have my mind changed.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? I am willing to be wrong. I am willing to have things change.

THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:29:41)

CLIENT: I want her to have -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: a person in her life that makes her happy. You know? And so, I don't know, it's just complicated. (ph) (sigh) You know, but part of having her in my life is knowing that whatever it is that I just have to accept it because that's just who she is. You know? And most of the time [thus far] (ph) it's great. It's just -

THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:30:15)

CLIENT: But the weird thing is, is if she was doing a scammy business, if she was doing it -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: for some reason, I wouldn't be nearly as bad.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's the fact that I don't think she really has a big clue. Yeah. And you'd probably say, "How in the world is it that you both went to Brown together and she works in this industry and she doesn't have a clue?"

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Well. When you work in the business, trust me, there's a whole lot of ways to drown your thoughts such that you don't actually ever think about it. And nobody thinks twice about somebody who drinks, you know, a couple of bottles of night who works in that industry.

THERAPIST: Hm. Yeah.

CLIENT: So, who know? So it's almost like she has a way to living a drunken lifestyle without repercussions. It isn't really that big of a deal. You know?

THERAPIST: It must be hard to see her going through this stuff. [00:31:15]

CLIENT: Yeah. At the same time, you know, I also know when it comes I feel weird feeling this way because I'm pretty sure my mother-in-law feels this way about me. "I was there before him, I'll be there after him." You know? Like, you know, I will be in her life before Drew was in her life, I was there for the first husband.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I was there before anybody else in her life.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? I will be in her life after he's no longer in her life. I'm positive of this. And at the same time I say that and I'm like, "Wow, my mother-in-law probably feels that way too."

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: That she's going to outlast me. And, you know, that feels kind of like, I don't know. That's part of the biggest reason why, again, that looping back around to this whole like thing -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: the fact that my mother-in-law can't stand me and, you know, thinks almost everything about me is wrong. And everything, you know, disapproves of much of everything that I am. Therefore, I feel awkward feeling that way about somebody else. You know? [00:32:27]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I can't get rid of it. I'm never going to try and purge that feeling. I'm willing to be open minded. At any given time I can have my mind changed. But I know what I know. I feel like my moral compass is really straight on this. I feel guilty about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Mm hm.

CLIENT: But not guilty about because it's wrong. I feel guilty about it because I know how much anguish it caused somebody else.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And therefore I will never really tell her.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm going to tell her a little bit as time goes on if she asks like, "Do you think that everything is on the up on up?" I'll say like, "No, not at all."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I will never specifically say I disapprove.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because I know how much it hurt me. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I'll never tell her, "I'll be around after this marriage is over too." (laughs)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: That's kind of awkward. Sure.

CLIENT: You know? I just, it was so hurtful to me that I wouldn't dream of it. [00:33:30]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? And she went through it. She saw it. So that's part of the reason why I think is if it's somebody who was different in my life that didn't see what I went through.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I think that she knows about my anguish. That kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: At the same time it's, you know, it's just weird. She's about my only really, really Most of my friends I have that the friendship I have leads to bad things, I do not keep in contact with at all. She's the only bad influence in my life left. Like really bad influence in my life.

THERAPIST: How is she a bad influence? (inaudible at 00:34:22)

CLIENT: (laughs) Her serendipity is infectious.

THERAPIST: For her -

CLIENT: Her and I when we get together we have a nickname of being called, "Sid and Nancy" and we fight over who gets to be Sid Vicious. Okay? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's not really like that, but yet it's ridiculously like that. Her and I have gotten, for some reason when we are together both of our better judgment is like completely gone.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like we've been able to do things like, you know Actually, a good example, you know both of us have been able to flirt our way into getting just about anywhere we want.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like for a while it was a challenge. Or like, "I wonder if we can get Like I wonder if we can get into the Smithsonian's area by just doing the right," you know, specifically at this meet and greet thing, and just talking the right people up. "Hell, yeah." Like, oh gosh, just various things like that. Things that I would never normally [00:35:35]

That's fine, that's just a little bit of social engineering. But like (sigh) How do I explain it? It's just it's never things that are directly illegal, per se -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: but there are definitely things that are not in the spreadsheet of Debra's right and wrongs.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Are not necessarily on the up and up column. You know? (pause) That kind of stuff. I can't think of anything right now. But the equivalent of, I can totally see this happening, it hasn't happened. But I can totally see, like at one point we used to go out to the Four Seasons out in Chicago -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: for breakfast. And the idea of like somehow making off with some of the silverware. That kind of stuff. [00:36:36]

THERAPIST: Uh huh. I see.

CLIENT: Accidently, on purpose, ending up with some of the silverware.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I can see that happening.

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah.

CLIENT: Didn't happen, but could.

THERAPIST: Could. Yeah, that's the kind of thing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That kind of thing. But, you know, like I said, things that are against my better judgment I would definitely, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Definitely, she gets me to drink an awful lot more than I normally do. Probably not I probably am, I am probably not in danger, per se, but definitely she definitely promotes more binge drinking than I think is good for me.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Now mind you, what is binge drinking for me?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Just because of the medications I take and things like that. When we all went to Jen's wake, you know, I needed them to go out and get me Gatorade and like sleep. And everybody else was [like crap.] (ph) Like my threshold was a lot lower -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: than what most other people could do. [00:37:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But she'll never be the person who tells me, "Don't get behind the wheel." I never have but, "Don't get behind the wheel."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: She would never step into, like if I were to try and kiss somebody for some reason -

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: she would never stop it.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: You know? She would think it was one more amusing part of the adventure.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So.

THERAPIST: Got it.

CLIENT: Yeah. The good news is that she believes everything I do is fantastic. And if I told her to do things she would. Which is, I guess, the reason why I won't tell her not to.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Until recently, part of the reason why she got married to the first guy, I think, is because she thought I approved of him. I mean she got the same engagement ring, more or less, that I did. Like the whole like -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like the whole repeating -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, she's a year younger than me, so -

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (inaudible at 00:38:33)

CLIENT: Everything by one year. And so I think that maybe she jumped into things because she thought, not because I said to do so, but because it seemed like a Debra approved lifestyle.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know? Working contracting. You know?

THERAPIST: Oh she did that?

CLIENT: Oh she did that, yeah. I think.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: There was, yeah. It was one of those things where she wanted to get out early, I think. So she realized, "Oh my God, I've been doing all this degree, but if I just take these two more classes I can be done."

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, I've never been like that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. But I guess I'll just see where things go. I feel bad though, because I feel like I can't talk to Mike about this too much. I talked with him a little bit. [00:39:38]

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Because he can't stand Drew. It is not just me. It is like my friend Jerry (ph). Like other people have known Penny for years. Everything about this rings like all kinds of warning bells. But for him, because he feels this, he's extremely sensitive to this kind of scamming thing, it rings so much alarm bells that it makes him anxious. Like practically nauseated.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Saying that Drew makes him nauseated is not like a mean thing.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: For him it's a fight or flight thing.

THERAPIST: Like as in I'm hoping I just suggested to him that he should talk to his doctor about getting extra like Xanax before it. Like, yeah. So I feel like I can't talk to him about it because, he's not really afraid for Penny, he just has this amorphous, "Oh my God, I'm in danger because there's somebody trying to take advantage." Like it's not, I mean he's protective of her, but it's just -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: He's been in situations with master manipulators before and he just gets, it's not even like as localized as that. And so like he couldn't watch the whole [Kitchen Aide] (ph) episode back Before we even knew she was getting married we saw this, and he was like, "Oh my God. This is so much like this. I need to turn this off." And I'm like, "Okay, I'll watch it when you're gone." [00:40:49]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So, you know, we don't see a lot of There's a lot of that editing in life.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So he's much more sensitive. I'm very sensitive about stuff, but I can distract myself from things that bother me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: He can't as well.

THERAPIST: [Maybe he] (ph) also sort of feels a degree of vulnerability in situations like that you don't necessarily.

CLIENT: Well he is a rube. He can't be taken advantage of by anybody. When I met him, he was giving out like twenty dollar bills to homeless people.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: And he had no way of earning money of his own.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: This was just like his savings. He didn't know. He was being You might think he was. That was one instance one time. But the thing is that he didn't, he's so compassionate about certain things -

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: that, you know, he's pretty good about that. [00:41:49]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: So it's actually, it's a quality that I wouldn't change in him. As much as I call him on rube on things, it's one of the sweetest things in the world.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know? And especially because of the fact that he was raised by somebody who can't feel anything, like has no feelings.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I think it's actually pretty awesome.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Because I try really hard not to research things too much. But I did do some quick just, like because I had never heard of schizoid personality disorder.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So I did some quick things and, apparently, it's not uncommon for children to also have that afterwards. Like parent child -

THERAPIST: [That can transfer.] (ph)

CLIENT: And the anecdotal evidence of people who posted when I looked at five minutes on the Internet -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: it looked like that too. And so, I guess, I was just grateful that that didn't happen. [00:42:58]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? Even before I knew anything about that as a possibility, you know, it still it was one of the things I loved about him.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Is the fact that he is extremely generous and extremely like he's, you know, he's got a lot of empathy for people's feelings. Which is, I think, that's why he has to shut things out so much.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's because he just can't -

THERAPIST: Yeah, if he were sort of even more thick skinned or a little more directing things towards himself, in a weird way it would have been easier for him growing up.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Totally, totally.

THERAPIST: We need to stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But Tuesday is good?

CLIENT: Yeah, Tuesday is good. Then the Tuesday after may or may not. I'll have to let you know.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because we may try and do something in Rhode Island. We'll see. [00:44:03]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So there is like a quick thing. I may very well be doing, may be trading a helicopter ride in Rhode Island for some programming.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I hope that works out.

CLIENT: Yeah. They want an app.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I want, you know, I want to do something for my anniversary.

THERAPIST: Oh cool.

CLIENT: So, I don't mind bartering.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Well, good. I'll see you.

END TRANSCRIPT