TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: (sigh)
THERAPIST: Hi.
CLIENT: Hey.
THERAPIST: I'm glad you made it.
CLIENT: Yeah. (sigh) Gosh. Boy am I tired. It's just sort of one of those things where lots of things to have to do. Like in terms of like running an errand, or doing this and doing that. And it's so wearing me out at the moment. So it's frustrating because I feel like Like for example, a few minutes ago actually, I ran into my old boss.
And she was like, "Oh my God. Oh my God. Let's go out. Let's go out soon." I'm like, "I want to," but like, you know, she can work a whole day of work and then go out for like cocktails. I can't do so much. You know, I need to take a nap first. [00:01:08]
And so it's like I got super excited to see her not as a person who is evaluating me, in a way. She, actually, in general, has been my biggest, like if there's ever anybody who has been willing to fight for me or do anything for me, it's been her.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But it's, you know, just it would be really fun to do something with her.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: [I never had that] (ph) overhanging, the technically she's my boss kind of thing.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: Whereas, one of my other bosses, occasionally we've gone to a couple different like wine tastings and things like that, and I still have to be super guarded about that because I can easily very tipsy very fast, and I do not want to make an ass out of myself in front of my boss. Although she's very laid back and very nice about that kind of thing, it's still it's just one of those things you just don't do. [00:02:05]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So that's been, you know, just getting stuff done around the house, getting life done pretty much. Just a lot.
THERAPIST: It's a lot. Yeah.
CLIENT: So I am just running around all the time. Like nothing fun. Like I spent most, between, like as soon as I got home from work yesterday until I went to bed, doing medical forms. Most people wait until the end of the year to do their flexible spending stuff.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I have to do it every couple of weeks because I can't afford the outright to wait until the end of the year. So on top of it we're trying to see if we have enough flexible spending to be introducing things that we kind of really need to do.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So it's like, yeah, there's nothing quite as exciting. And I'm just frustrated because of an earlier doctor, they haven't gotten their forms right. I feel like I need to give them back the form because I fixed their PDF. I spent hours. [00:03:14]
THERAPIST: PFSA (ph) forms?
CLIENT: I'm sorry?
THERAPIST: PFSA (ph) Forms?
CLIENT: Yeah. They give it to you as a PDF but because it's early in the year and they haven't figured all the problems out yet, the person maybe hasn't fixed the PDF yet, so I spent a lot of time on Acrobat fixing the PDF. I feel like I should just go and be like, "And here's the fixed PDF."
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: "By the way, you better not turn down my claims. Thank you very much." So it's, you know, it's a lot. You know? It's very hard not to get obsessed with that kind of stuff when all you do is do things like that. You know?
Like you spend time filling out claims or running around to get things at the pharmacy or, you know, this or that. You know? It's the life you live so it's not really so much like your obsessive thinking as much as that's part of your tasks. You know?
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And it's frustrating because I just want to forget about it for a while. You know? I really do. I want a vacation from my illness. [00:04:21]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And at least for the time being it's not going to happen any time soon. But it would be nice to just do that. The good news is that my spouse is actually, although he has not been keeping his sobriety, I don't know how well or not well. I know it hasn't been since the last time I mentioned it. He's actually figuring out how to network again. I think it's because he's not spending business time being dissociated. He's learning how to be social again.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Good.
CLIENT: Because I mean this is how awkward and how unable to handle situations is not the person I knew. It's not the person I married. That's why I kept saying, "This is like I'm living with this person who, I know he had the life skills of how to make a phone call to get a refund on too much of your electric bill or something." [00:05:26]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You know? And he would struggle with doing that task.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: And it's like I feel really weird blaming the addiction, but it really felt like the more he was deep into it the less ability he had to be able to do much of anything in his life. You know? And it's sort of most people just it masks as being super socially awkward.
So unlike someone who is a drinker who may not, like when they're acting out, there may be like the obvious signs that they're not doing so well as, may be very different. This primarily, the outward signs that everybody but me would see, is just that he's this socially awkward guy.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: You know what I mean? Like quiet, you know, kind of thing. And although he is slightly that way, he's never been that strong until this went really haywire. And so [00:06:25]
THERAPIST: He's never been that strong, you mean he's never been that awkward?
CLIENT: Never been that awkward before.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like as in like, you know, me feeling like I needed to I never did but I felt like I needed to take photographs of all the food that we needed in the house to send him grocery shopping to make him check against the picture.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You know?
THERAPIST: [It was really pretty bad, when you put it that way.] (ph)
CLIENT: Yeah. And maybe I'm picky, but some things are not Like I'm not that picky.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know? So it feels like he's getting better at this again.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But saying that just makes me so frustrated. I really don't want to be that spouse that doesn't want him to have anything to do with his family. But the less he has to do with any one of them, the more normal he is, like completely. And I guess maybe I've gotten, I think I've gotten after being married for this long, I think I get credit for not being that spouse that tries to separate somebody from their family. When like how I say, "Hey, I just don't feel like it's a good idea for you to spend time with them."
THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:07:29). There's like, "That spouse who tries to separate the spouse from the family." And there's that spouse that's just looking out for him.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I mean -
CLIENT: I'm not like vying for attention. You know, there are people that are like, "Oh my God, he's going to pay more attention to them." Or, do you know what I mean? It's not that kind of isolation.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Debra, I know. That's pretty obvious.
CLIENT: I know it's obvious, but still I mean -
THERAPIST: You doubt yourself so much when it comes to things like this. You know?
CLIENT: I do.
THERAPIST: As though you're a bad actor in some fashion. Or you're being selfish about it rather than trying to do things that will be helpful to him.
CLIENT: I learned, this is a learned behavior. You know what I mean? Like me at twenty five, not really like that. Well slightly at that point, but not really my nature. I have gotten this from a long line of conditioning to being, you know, "Don't be that person. Don't do this." You know what I mean? [00:08:34]
THERAPIST: Right. Yeah, so let's unlearn that.
CLIENT: And so, yeah, I need to unlearn that because I am bracing for like being told, "Well, obviously you're isolating them to separate them so that they are powerless and they have to stay with you." Like that kind of crap.
THERAPIST: Right. Right. Which just actually (inaudible at 00:08:56) really.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I mean you want him to go out and socialize, you want him to go out and be with other people. You want him to (cross talking).
CLIENT: I found him a bunch of dorks to go play board games with.
THERAPIST: I know. I know.
CLIENT: And I have even attended once.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I may attend again eventually.
THERAPIST: Yeah. I would imagine it generally has a pretty negative affect on him to be more in touch with people in his family, from what you said about them.
CLIENT: Yeah. The problem is, is that this behavior that I'm trying really hard not to be, is because it's in the narrative that they're talking about.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: That whole, "She's unwell. She has histrionic issues." Like every time, like you would thing I have bipolar, I am this. I mean they have got names for everything that I have wrong with me.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I'm just enthusiastic. I'm not freaking bipolar. My best friend I grew up with actually legitimately had this.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I know what that looks like. He couldn't sleep at night. And he gave away all his stuff.
THERAPIST: Yeah, I know. I'm a shrink, I know what it looks like too. We've been talking so long now and I haven't noticed anything like that.
CLIENT: Like, yeah. I'm just saying that even me, there's this child knew that I knew that that wasn't like I just get enthusiastic. But the thing is [that they try to control me by saying this shit.] (ph) [00:10:06]
THERAPIST: You're not like remotely like that.
CLIENT: I know. And it makes me mad. I mean it gets me so pissed because of the fact that there is one member of the family who, in theory, has a practice, who does this as a way I don't know if she doesn't to other people to control them.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But she uses diagnosis to control them. And, therefore, like my behavior, like me trying to separate him off from the family to victimize him, to make him feel bad about himself, to always be watching him. Like I am vigilant because I don't want anyone trampling on him.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But the thing is that if I Sometimes I'm so careful because I don't want to fall into that. Not because I believe at this point that I am that person, but I don't want to be above suspicion, but be above -
THERAPIST: You really have no control over what they're going to say about you.
CLIENT: I know.
THERAPIST: And how they're going to see you. There's really nothing you can do, from what you said, that's going to have a whole lot of effect on that. You know? [00:11:07]
CLIENT: I understand, but it's really frustrating because they use fucking psychobabble to shame me and punish me into behaving the way that they want me to.
THERAPIST: Sounds like a great reason not to have very much to do with them at all. (laughs)
CLIENT: Do you have any idea how degrading that is? And for years, because I am a subject matter, [that's one of the main things,] (ph) you tend to lend You give people the benefit of the doubt. They obviously know the subject matter of certain things and say, "Well, maybe " THERAPIST: But you don't diagnose people in your family.
CLIENT: Family. (laughs)
THERAPIST: No. You don't. Like it's one thing Like particularly in an adversarial way. You know, it's one thing if like your kid seems a little anxious or depressed or whatever.
CLIENT: And urging you to get help.
THERAPIST: And you say, "Hey, hey, hey, Like, I'm kind of concerned about you. Like maybe we should go see somebody else because I'm worried you."
CLIENT: Yeah, and you do need to go checked because of this kind of behavior.
THERAPIST: Yeah, it's not adversarial.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And it's not done with a lot of conviction. You know?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: So there's really no basis for that. [00:12:17]
CLIENT: I know. But it just makes me I feel like I have to at least be a little bit, and that's why I don't want to have to be around them, because I don't want to be fucking vigilant. I can't handle the vigilance. It's exhausting.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And when they're not around, and when they're in his life less and in my life less, then I have to worry less about like these things just showing up out of nowhere. Like, you know, having to deal with getting random phone calls or whatever. There's a box in my house of stuff that is supposedly from Mike's bedroom as a child that just showed up a couple of weeks ago. It's still in the packaging.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Because, although I, both of us, when I say I'm saying it because I only want to speak from my own point of view. I not only know what's in there, God only knows when we actually open it up what's going to be in there and what kind nasty little surprise.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know what I mean? And I'm not being paranoid.
THERAPIST: Could there be anything in there that would actually be of any value to your view?
CLIENT: Well, yes.
THERAPIST: Okay. So you can't just throw it away.
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: Alright.
CLIENT: When we saw that pile of stuff, in theory, when we were in Kentucky, that we couldn't bring back with us. When were there we saw that pile of stuff and it had some things that were very sentimental to him. [00:13:27]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: A lot of stuff from Jesuit, from his old high school.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But there were some things in there that immediately I'm like, "That's kind of weird." Like, you know, I'm not the kind of person who gets upset about pictures of him with old girlfriends.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Come on, fifteen years.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: That's the kind of thing. And quite frankly, I would like to have him have that kind of stuff around. That kind of stuff to show our children, have part of our lives. Come on, people had a life before you met Mom, like kind of stuff.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: That doesn't bother me in the least.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But I am expecting some sort of nasty little note or something that's not right. You know what I mean? Something that's not right in there, in the box, that's going to cause problems.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So, I may get somebody neutral.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like Penny, which I know it sounds like talking about bringing a trouble maker. But in this situation having her open the box, look through it and say, "No, there's nothing mean from your sister-in-law." And if there was like Mike and I would both say, "Hey, Penny, if there's like a note from Kerry (ph), will you burn it and just never tell us the contents." She would do that. [00:14:28]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: In a heartbeat.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Kind of like the bomb sniffing robots. (laughs) You know?
THERAPIST: (laughs) Yeah.
CLIENT: Something like, something where, because she also knows, she has experience with me from the wedding and she's been through all this. Whereas like randomly someone I've met even in the past ten years wouldn't get what a psycho all these people are.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Real psychopaths (ph). But I'm just at this point right now where I'm finally getting out of the like being afraid and being like, "You know what? We can have a life. We don't have to be like " There's one member of the family that we really very much care for who is in a situation where we can't really have a whole lot of contact with him. There are other members of the family further out that it's not as big of a deal.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Mike's grandfather.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But there's nothing we can do about that right now. You know? Other than just send cards and hopefully they get there. Who knows what happens. [00:15:36]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But, to be honest, aside from that it's brutal. Like even the people who seem like they're on your side for a little bit, occasionally they get caught up in the drama. Because from time to time there's benefits to siding with somebody on something.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know? It can be anything from getting a car to just getting emotional approval at any given time. And it's like I am so -
THERAPIST: I've never heard you describe anything positive that has come out of an interaction with his mother or sister or most of the people in his family.
CLIENT: Mike's Dad is so emotionally screwed up that like I mean he seems kind of normal on the front of things, and then once you realize that he has nothing under the surface, like nothing at all.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Like he can talk about like a little bit and then there's nothing. There is no depth to him. And I'm not talking about just intellectual depth, I mean like depth, period. I swear that when I told you that Mike would just sit there and stare at the wall, I suspected Mike's Dad when he travels -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: stares at the wall when his wife, the therapist, doesn't dictate his activities. [00:16:52]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Mike used to call him "Uncle Dad" because he treated him much more like a nephew than like a son.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: When we would come to visit it would be like seeing someone's uncle, not like you're a father.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: He's tried to come around since Mike is now at school. Apparently this is a sign of -
THERAPIST: That means something to him?
CLIENT: That means something to him.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: But, yeah, it's, you know, there's nothing good that comes out of it. Especially the mom and the sister. The two brothers, one of them is twenty two. I mean he's not even finished growing up yet. But knowing what the outcome is, who knows. I'm pushing for him to move to Hungary because he's in love with a girl who has Hungarian citizenship, and I really think that he will not have to deal with the drama if he goes over there.
The other one, well he's on the run from the law. Why is that we're the black sheep of the family. There's somebody who is in trouble with the law for intent to distribute pharmaceuticals (ph) well not pharmaceuticals but, you know.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And, yeah. It's bullshit. You know? I mean, yes, my family is not all that it's cracked up to be. Yes, there is a lot of problems with it too. [00:18:18]
THERAPIST: I wonder what it is that leads you to give like his mother, your mother in law, the kind of credibility that you do. In other words, I mean it seems to that if it were something related to the subject matter that, you know, about (cross talking at 00:18:40).
CLIENT: Originally more of that. But that's the stepmother.
THERAPIST: I meant like if you're in an academic setting -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: and somebody was talking about something to do with engineering, and clearly they had no idea what they were talking about.
CLIENT: Yeah. Oh my God, I could correct them in a heartbeat.
THERAPIST: And you would feel like, "Whatever." You know?
CLIENT: And usually I'm actually pretty good at, in a very gentle way, if they really don't know what they're doing -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: setting them to the point of saying, "You know, I understand that you think this is what that is, but this is not actually the way it is." That kind of thing. Like being able to specifically talk to I've actually talked to people all the time about batteries in this way. They come in and they think they know everything about how their cell phone battery works.
THERAPIST: Right. Yeah.
CLIENT: And I'm really good actually at not talking down to them, but explaining to them that, "It's a subject matter you're not expert on this situation. And you really don't understand this. I can either tell you "yes" or "no," or if you'd like to I can let you know everything you ever wanted to know." I will give you the choice. I'm really good at that part. [00:19:40]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And it's actually something that I grew with because I used to be like, "You don't know what you're talking about."
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And not be able to handle that with the right finesse. But this, I guess the biggest reason why is because for years it seemed like it made no sense. You know what I mean? Like, first of all, if multiple felt that way, like they all felt that way about me.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: You know, like that being kind of an odd thing from the laws of statistics.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But on top of it like the idea of like, "Where is the value in saying " Like to me it didn't make like there was a motivation to do so.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: So for a long time it was like, "Well, why would this person do this?"
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You know? It took me a very long time and only finally now coming to terms with the fact that this is such a gnawing I mean, also the other reason why is because lots of people I'm dealing with who have problems, this doesn't fit into an easy category that people understand. Like mother-in-law behavior. Like there's bad mother-in-law behavior, but this is not one of those things you read about in like, you know, Women's Day magazine in terms of that. [00:20:56]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: This doesn't fit into these easily defined categories.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And, therefore, it's very easy to Because I have so much of my life that I live in the outliers. Not everybody can be the special snowflake all the time, can they?
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You know? Like statistically it just seems like it's an Occam's Razor thing. Where it's like, "Wow," I have to go with the thing that makes the most sense. Like this the most Like this is a -
THERAPIST: It's more parsimonious to imagine that these folks who are saying somewhat similar sorts of things and didn't appear for a while to have a motivation to do other than just (inaudible at 00:21:38).
CLIENT: Yeah. But maybe there's some grain of truth.
THERAPIST: (cross talking) with you or your impressions, what else are you supposed to think? I mean you would have to come up with some more baroque theory -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: or understanding where they were coming from in order to feel like -
CLIENT: And on top of it, I mean, I kind of, you know. Yeah, that's exactly, you know, in terms of -
THERAPIST: And I guess it's a double whammy in that it both leads you to doubt (inaudible at 00:22:07) them and whatever negative thing they have to say about you, and it takes a whack at your confidence in how you see things -
CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly.
THERAPIST: for the next issue.
CLIENT: Exactly.
THERAPIST: I see. And, you know, now you do have, I think, quite a different story about how this works in that, though their motives aren't entirely clear, it's much clearer that they do seem to have other agendas than just, you know, being reasonably objective or something, or totally unbiased in how they are judging or characterizing you.
And so that goes a long way in working against their credibility but still there's [a fair amount of inertia] (ph) there, and then there are the crummy things they've said are hard to sort of get rid of altogether. And it's hard to just discredit them altogether when you're going to deal with them the next day. [00:23:26]
CLIENT: They paint a very compelling picture, except for the fact that it's wrong.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Does that make sense?
THERAPIST: Yeah. Oh yeah.
CLIENT: A very compelling picture.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Like a good (inaudible at 00:23:37) argument. I mean, they probably make it sound pretty good even if it's all wrong.
CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. This is not like, except for the fact that they're obviously describing someone who is not me, it's internally consistent. I mean, I make the jokes about this, but the description, the behavior that they're saying, is internally consistent with what they're trying to say. There's all these other things.
But the only tip off that I really had was the fact that my spouse doesn't have any memory. So he couldn't tell me, "Oh, when I was a child, blah, blah, blah."
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Like he can only remember what people just told him.
THERAPIST: He also couldn't clue you in about how they are, I think.
CLIENT: He had no idea.
THERAPIST: Yeah. And on the positive side, at least as I've heard it, you have not really run into anything like this before. Like thank goodness your parents were not at all like this.
CLIENT: No. I mean they're are the moments. Let me assure that there are some serious freaking moments. [00:24:40]
THERAPIST: Yeah. I'm sure, but at least the way you describe it to me, they basically have had a pretty good sense of who you are since you were, you know, pretty small.
CLIENT: Yeah. Sometimes they know me better than myself -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: in certain ways. Not like in a bad way, but just in a How do I explain it? Like in a wise way.
THERAPIST: Well sure. They're your parents and they've known you a long time. That can be pretty insightful [in some ways] (ph). (laughs)
CLIENT: Yeah. So, I don't know what it was recently, they said to me something along the lines of, "Well, does that really solve the problem?" I was like, "No." "Well, there you go." Like it was something about me, something very particular that they were giving me insight on this.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But, in general, they know me pretty well.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: My Dad knows me better than my Mom does in certain ways. But, you know, the other things is, is that it doesn't make sense to me. Like even now I believe we've kind of I mean it's very hard without having anybody actively working with his Mom, to put this Like this all by remote and extremely like not real. Like speculating, giving us information. [00:26:03]
But honestly, although it's not exactly the most professional thing to do in that way, it's the only way that we've been able to put this whole thing together. Like to understand by giving these little hints of, "Well, this kind of behavior I'm diagnosing somebody, but someone who has this kind of behavior tends to have this kind of diagnosis. And this kind of diagnosis tends to be "
Like neither one of us understood this. This is not something that is well known or understood. You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: Right. Yeah, they were talking about something that is closer to fields you guys knew something about.
CLIENT: Or even just something that made it into the mainstream media.
THERAPIST: To assuage their credibility.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: But that kind of stuff.
CLIENT: Yeah. But this is like something where it's not like You know, there's a lot of things out there that, you know, in terms of there's awareness.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You know, in terms of understanding symptoms. Like, you know, about now they're understanding symptoms of depression. There's a lot more like public awareness. Lately there's been little things related to autism with a little bit more awareness. This is something that I'm like, "What?" I've never even heard of this before. Like it's not schizophrenic, it's schizoid. What is this thing, you know? [00:27:12]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: It's not like anything that anybody, and for years just struggling with, like why does this behavior happen this way? This doesn't make any sense. It doesn't fit into any behavior that I have ever heard of, read about, like in books or in anything. You know? It just didn't fit. And nobody understood why.
And so it was just When my understanding of the situation doesn't make sense, and their understanding of the situation has a very compelling picture, it's very easy to believe what they're trying to say.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Does that make sense?
THERAPIST: Absolutely.
CLIENT: I mean [I've been fucking Catholic] (ph).
THERAPIST: Yes, in a pretty humungous way. And I guess part of it You know part of it is the way they're setting it up. And part of it I think is also like, I think this is right. You don't like to be in a position of not knowing or understanding things, I think.
CLIENT: Yeah. Or at least, okay, maybe not fully understanding, but knowing it's out there. That there is some model that somebody knows. [00:28:19]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: There's somebody out there who really understands this.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Does that make sense? I can outsource it to somebody else.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: But for years there was no one. No one gave us a glimmer that this behavior was understandable. It didn't You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Like that this was good, that this fit into my model. And I'm not saying that it wasn't, or that people didn't do this, or maybe they mentioned it to Mike and he just didn't remember.
THERAPIST: Right, now that it's kind a known unknown. Like all this in a way that you Yeah.
CLIENT: And even if it's something that I will never truly understand, as long as I can outsource that to somebody else who is a knowledge expert of that kind of thing.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That's understandable.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: When it's something that isn't understandable, that's when, like by anybody, that's when I start to really doubt like how much this is real. You know?
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And so it's very easy to go with, you know, what seems like the thing that is the least complicated description and the thing that makes the most sense. You know? [00:29:28]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Especially, you know, I actually say I still don't really, I still don't want to. Like for example, my spouse has no memory like before a certain age. The immediate thing to me I think about is abuse. Like I'm thinking, "Oh my God, something terrible happened. Somebody molested him." I still kind of believe it in the back of my head.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Finding out later on, no, actually, it's because he was so under stimulated that he never actually had anything going on in his life that made that much memories. And that's a completely understandable thing but it never even dawned on me that that could happen.
THERAPIST: That's a theory?
CLIENT: Well.
THERAPIST: I mean is that what his therapist would say?
CLIENT: Not necessarily. I mean I'm getting this third hand.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I get the idea that because of, due to dealing with the situation around possibly that he did a lot of dissociation to cope with the situation. Therefore, because he was dissociating he wasn't actively making memories. Maybe. [00:30:33]
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Nobody And again I'm getting this super third hand, so I don't know.
THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.
CLIENT: I don't really know. To this day I don't know, but I was convinced for a while I mean it's not that -
THERAPIST: What's very clear is something was just very wrong.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And I guess it sounds like Mike's therapist has a pretty clear sense that his mother has a schizoid personality disorder.
CLIENT: That's based upon the information we have without anything else.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That's pretty much.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And that's been Even if it's wrong it has given us hope. It's like the person who they don't know why they're sick.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know? They don't even have a glimmer. Even if it's the wrong thing it gave us hope and it gave us something to understand. You know? Because otherwise it's like, who doesn't want to hear from their children? You know? Not that there's like anything wrong, but because they just don't feel like it. You know? [00:31:38]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Who wants to spend a holiday by themselves? You know?
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: It's kind of weird.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And it has no feelings of It doesn't even have feelings of remorse about the fact that they don't have feelings.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But she has no She actually said, "I should feel bad about this but I don't." And like, "I have no feelings about it." And maybe she said at one point when you spoke to her, it's like, "Maybe I should talk to somebody about that, [but it's honestly not bothering my life] (ph) so I probably won't."
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But she has no feelings.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: That's really fucking creepy.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And maybe it's because I feel too much for certain things.
THERAPIST: No, it's just creepy.
CLIENT: It's creepy.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And, I guess I -
THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:32:36)
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It's incredibly creepy. I mean it's somebody talking about having really damaged her son and having no interest in doing anything about it.
CLIENT: At one point, when he was trying to tell her that his pornography use problem had specifically, was actually geared towards underage girls, she basically Like first of all, and I ended up having to get involved in this because he was so upset about trying to tell this to her, that he couldn't tell it to her, but yet he wanted her to know.
By the way, she did not like me getting on the phone for a second to say the two words that needed to be said and then get off the phone, because he couldn't physically tell her. And she's like, "Is anybody being hurt" And, "Do you ever feel the compulsion to act on that." "Okay, well why are you telling me this?" [00:33:42]
THERAPIST: Wow.
CLIENT: Like seriously.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, that's very off the wall.
CLIENT: All of his family are dead inside with this whole thing by the way. They feel like as long as nobody is being hurt Like in their head, nobody being hurt being like it's not about things related to people being beaten or things like that. Everybody likes something that's [too young,] (ph) maybe. Or I think they're trying to make They're not as bad as she is about it.
THERAPIST: They're in denial about it.
CLIENT: She's really dead inside about this.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: To me this is, and I'm glad that this is something that he is actively, and now that he's not acting out, he's actively trying not to get involved in.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like they see it as, "Oh no one's going to find out. No one's going to." You know, like it doesn't matter. But she is very much like, as long as you don't think you're going to act on it and as long as you, you know, and this isn't like people being harmed.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like being beaten up, that's okay. She doesn't see it as there's any victim in the crime at all, because those pictures would have been there anyways. [00:34:55]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: What the hell?
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: To me that's so. And for a long time I identified with her. I thought, okay, she's an intelligent woman. And certain things, like a very similar sense of humor on certain things. And so like why the hell. I don't understand why does But now I realize that it isn't like that at all. It's just that it was on the surface, being polite. You know, that kind of thing. But I just don't get it.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And especially because of the fact that nothing big, tragic happened to her.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: My mother left, you know, a socialist regime that was actively murdering family members to go to a country that she did not speak the language. Okay, fraudulently left to go to another country under the auspices of being allowed to go there, on her own, to a country that she did not know the language, that actively was having a war with a couple of other places -
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: to move through, like transient, through Europe to come to the US. And she doesn't have that kind of problem.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Okay. (laughs)
THERAPIST: We have to stop. (laughs)
CLIENT: Okay. I'm sorry. I just needed to point that out.
THERAPIST: No, no no.
CLIENT: Not that she doesn't have like a certain amount of slight shellshock from that.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But she's not dead inside.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: I'm sorry, I just needed to get that part out. [00:36:18]
THERAPIST: That's okay. That's okay.
CLIENT: It sounds weird, but I've only just now stepped back to realize what a tremendously awesome bad ass my mother is. I've always thought she was a nice person.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Like she's my Mom. But all of a sudden I've started to step back and go, "Holy shit." Like I'm at the age she is and she lived like all this other stuff.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And she somehow made it through. And I'm not beating myself up because I can't handle it, but I just think that's kind of cool.
THERAPIST: I think you're similar to her.
CLIENT: Maybe. A little bit.
THERAPIST: I think so.
CLIENT: I'm tough, but I'm not that tough. (pause) I will see you next week.
THERAPIST: Sounds good.
END TRANSCRIPT
