TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Hello.
CLIENT: Hello. (pause) (sighs) Sort of been making myself cry again lately. Nothing in particular, it’s not like a, “Oh, you’ve done X, Y, Z.” And [had weeks] (ph) and (inaudible at 00:00:19) like that but just more of a having an insight on Monday that I only have so much time that I have before I’m feeling okay enough to get things done. Just trying to get stuff done before I sort of sit down and I can’t get back up again, if that makes sense.
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: It’s really frustrating because I do have a [lot instances] (ph) in my life time, you sit down, relax, don’t worry about it and it’s very difficult for me to get through to them that if I do that my joints become so stiff that I won’t be able to get back up again. They sort of get it but I don’t really want to have that conversation again, you know?
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:01:00]
CLIENT: So, but I really hate the fact that my life is sort of driven by these spurts of I wouldn’t say panic driven but a definitely super focused super high industry, “I must get all this done now because I know that if I sit down for just a minute or if I slow down for just a minute than things are going to start hurting.” And I’m not a person that really likes having that kind of I mean, I don’t mind having like a period of time where I intently do something for a project but this is more like, “I must to empty the dishwasher, I must do this, I must do that,” because if I don’t -
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: It’s not going to be done. So. (pause) (inaudible at 00:01:41), you know? And it’s frustrating. But that’s sort of life, I guess.
THERAPIST: Mhm. (pause)
CLIENT: (sighs) [00:02:00] Feeling overall just a bit burned out right now, you know? And (pause) I’m just hoping to get some sort of positive (pause) how do I explain this, it’s like waiting for some things to go my way just a little bit, you know?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Which is hard. One of my favorite quotes ever was by I think Thomas Jefferson is that, “I’m a great believer in luck. The harder I work, the more I have of it.” And that’s sort of a deep philosophy of mine. That you have to make your own luck sometimes. And so it’s hard getting there and getting to be able to do that. (pause) [00:03:00]
But it’s hard also because [I am] (ph) just like seeing Mike having more and more like aches and pains and this and that.
THERAPIST: Oh really?
CLIENT: Yeah, he’s had some problems though. He has some problems with his foot and it’s a couple different things. It’s been there for years. (pause) It sort of had albeac (ph) injections in it and the last time he got injections in he was on crutches for a little bit and this and that. But I really feel that every single one of them, they’re all interrelated. Because something happened he’s changing his gait which is bothering his lower back. He didn’t even realize his lower back was bothering him until he actually asked about the fact that, “Why is it that when I go to do X, Y, Z that I’m having muscle spasms?” And they were like, “Yeah, that’s a lower back problem.”
THERAPIST: Yep. [00:04:00]
CLIENT: So, and I’m really trying to get the big picture of us.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Especially for me. It’s been a long term fight to get him to carry less stuff with him. He really wants to carry the western world with him and it’s heavy. It’s really heavy. And that can’t be good for him. So, amongst many other things like that and it’s just -
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: One of the really really wonderful things though is we calculated the perfect, because for a while there it was almost impossible for him to really walk any distance.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: I mean he hit (ph) some distance but he couldn’t get back and forth from say, where the center is on campus -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Roughly because his building is right next to that.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: All the way out to where we are. Do you know where the Whole Foods is?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That’s practically our backyard.
THERAPIST: Oh, okay.
CLIENT: Walking home back and forth at (ph) in snow when you already don’t have a very good gait and you really should be on crutches anyways, really almost impossible. [00:05:03]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Being the major nerds that we are, we spent an entire calculating the most efficient route to [] (ph) which is basically the backside of Ballston. Basically where the medical buildings are at Yale. The one that’s actually on, I think it’s on Ballston Street.
THERAPIST: Yeah, the university health center.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. From not the front but the back.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:05:23)
CLIENT: They – basically -
THERAPIST: There -
CLIENT: From right there. If you hail it from there and then you do a very specific route, it’s not cheap but it’s about five bucks.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Which at that point it’s like, “Well, five bucks for you not being in agony, yes.”
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Kind of thing.
THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.
CLIENT: But it’s kind of funny about that kind of thing because we had to use a bunch of different techniques for figuring out ways to make it Like even from the front, $3 more. Because they had to get up and around and around -
THERAPIST: (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:05:54)
CLIENT: Yeah. But it’s really been helpful because it’s these little life hacks that we’re figuring out are I mean, they’re not great for a budget but they’re making it so that he’s before he wouldn’t do it at all. He would just limp home because, quite frankly, by the time he walked to Yale station, if he took it to Central, he still had a half-mile home.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You know, instead of the mile walk home.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But again, able-bodied not a big deal but in the snow and all this other stuff, bad. And as both of us had a lot of that happen where like I’m having trouble with this or that and trying to figure out ways to get around and it’s fairly tricky. One of the big things that well, term, that hasn’t been able to It’s sort of a weird thing because people nagged him for years about why he didn’t ride a bike and he’s like, “Yeah, the reason why I don’t ride a bike is not that I don’t want to ride a bike People tried for years to teach me how to ride a bike, I can’t.” Now, after all these years, back when we had the big thing where they were doing the scans for his brain -
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:07:00]
CLIENT: They found out that he has, I can’t remember what it was called, but basically it is where the base of his brain descends a little bit lower than everybody else outside the skull cavity. It’s very little. But apparently people like that have terrible balance problems.
THERAPIST: Huh!
CLIENT: Yeah. So he can never master riding (overlapping talking) anything.
THERAPIST: (overlapping talking) Riding a bike.
CLIENT: Yeah. So that’s nice to have the official, “Okay, people like this “ And I used to remember what the name of it is but of course I have massive aphasia lately because of stress. But it’s basically this kind of thing. It’s not like it’s a big deal it just means that he can’t ice skate, he can’t ride a bike, anything that involves balance like that.
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: Not going to happen.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But it’s good because people, like my parents are like “Hey, do you want to (inaudible at 00:07:45) town on bike?” You know and I’m like, “Ahh, no.” Now I can finally (ph) explain to my mom -
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: It isn’t just a matter that he hasn’t gotten because and we’re well-meaning people like my mother are like “Well, maybe we could get a different type of bike or we could do this or we could do that.” And it’s like, “No, it’s not that. It’s “ [00:08:01]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: They can’t stay up on two wheels. He parent’s weren’t this is one of the few things they weren’t (ph) negligent about. They tried, he just falls over.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So. But it’s just We were talking about this kind thing but you know he is my partner and caregiver when I’m in physical agony so if he’s in agony, I really try to stay off of it because it’s like, you try (inaudible at 00:08:24) bothering him because it’s like, “Well, you know “It’s just one of those things where I just don’t want to bother him right then and there. He’s been getting physical therapy and I have this mildly irrational belief that this one chair in our house is causing most of the problems.
THERAPIST: Huh!
CLIENT: It’s one of the big comfy club chairs that you sink into.
THERAPIST: (overlapping talking) Okay, yeah. Yeah.
CLIENT: It’s leather. We’ve had it for years, it’s his chair.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: In our bedroom and I’ve got this feeling that it’s not doing anything for his posture in terms of helping.
THERAPIST: I see. Yeah. [00:08:59]
CLIENT: But trying to think about what we can do to fix that or replace that. The problem that I’m [seeing in saying irrational] (ph) about wanting to get rid of this chair as (inaudible at 00:09:09).
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Highly unscientific feelings about this chair that’s the chair he sits in when he’s reading porn too.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Most of the time.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It’s usually it’s right next to the bed and that’s usually where he acts out. But he also does other things, lots of things.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: On the morning he sits there and reads the news but it’s like -
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Yeah, I kind of hate that chair.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: It’s not that I dislike it’s very aesthetically pleasing, I just hate that chair.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So. (sniffs) (pause) I don’t know why but I have very strong weird attachments to stuff like that. I’m not a super materialistic person but I hate keeping things around that make me think of bad things.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: You know?
THERAPIST: Yep. (pause) Because it would be great if that worked, if you get rid of the chair and it would improve his health and his addiction. [00:10:00]
CLIENT: I doubt it will improve his addiction but at least I won’t look at it and go, “That’s the chair he sits in when he’s acting out.”
THERAPIST: (overlapping talking) Right.
CLIENT: But I doubt it will help his addiction. But it’s possible. I mean it’s (sighs)
THERAPIST: Yeah, I didn’t necessarily think (overlapping talking) that would -
CLIENT: (overlapping talking) No.
THERAPIST: Because it sounds like that’s sort of what you’re feeling (overlapping talking) about it now. (ph)
CLIENT: I think that (inaudible at 00:10:16) about it is, yeah. I think the big thing though is also just I think that there is definitely a threshold of feeling miserable -
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: For him. And I think it’s next, not this week and this coming up but next is when Mike’s grandfather’s memorial is. And I’m just sort of preparing myself for what I need to do to keep him distracted.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) He’s going to be pretty upset he’s not there.
CLIENT: Yeah. Very. But I think that the keeping him distracted is also partially me too.
THERAPIST: I see. Yeah.
CLIENT: Because it’s really sad that we aren’t going to be able to be there. But first he is going to write something that is hopefully going to be read so we’ll see.
THERAPIST: Oh. [00:10:59}
CLIENT: I have not strong feelings that he will get it done but -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I’ve often felt, and this sounds really mean to say this, I’ve often thought that he would be incompetent emotionally to write my own eulogy -
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: If I died. Like completely.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And I don’t have these kid of morbid thoughts regularly, it was when we were going to Laney’s funeral and I was watching them read beautiful eulogy written by his wife. Then I thought to myself, my God, you know and I actually said it out loud to our friend Jerry. I was like, “I don’t think Mike could do that.” And he’s like, “Oh, Mike will step up to that.” And I’m like, “Mmm, the Mike you knew back in college, yeah he could. The one back when we were at college together, yeah, the guy who’s so afraid of everything and sunk into this world, not so much.”
THERAPIST: Mmm.
CLIENT: I feel like right now that sort of my responsibility to keep him I’m not looking for a win, and sort of this as a zero sum game, basically not in the throes of acting out or seeking behaviors that are more related to acting out I guess, like video games and such. (pause) Right now because it just (sigh) feel like if he can get past this, then maybe things will get better. I don’t know. We had a really big talk because he’s having a really rough time with therapy right now.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: When I tell you this, I’m worried to tell you that there are three filters involved in this.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: There’s the one that there is this stuff being told to Mike. Then there’s Mike’s [in full terra] (ph) filter to himself -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Of what he interprets it. Then it’s the way he tells it to me and then now I’m telling this to you. So this is going to probably be so obscured it’s not even (overlapping talking) remotely close to what actually happened.
THERAPIST: (overlapping talking) (laughs) Okay, yeah, telephone here.
CLIENT: Yeah, very much so that. In his person he’s seeing, he is basically encouraging him heavily to get into it a forgiveness aspect with his mother. And he recently found out that Dr. Dolan has been doing a lot of publishing on the power of forgiveness. And so he’s like, “Oh yeah, he’s just doing this because I’m just like this too whenever I have something new that I’m publishing on, it’s like, when all you use is a hammer everything looks like a nail” kind of thing.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And so he’s kind of really angry and frustrated because he can’t accidentally get in a forgiveness mode when he’s still actively afraid of her hurting him. And so he’s coming home and talking to me about it, [all the] (ph) stuff and like -
THERAPIST: I can see based on what you have told me that at the very least to you, it doesn’t seem like that’s really where he’s at or what would help him.
CLIENT: I agree! And I’m certain that maybe this was a one and I’m worried to tell you, like knowing him, this might be a one quick thing saying like, that Dr. Dolan might have said, “What this look like to you?”
THERAPIST: Right. [0:13:59]
CLIENT: (overlapping talking) Like that might have been a one sentence conversation that is stirring him on for weeks.
THERAPIST: (overlapping talking) Oh yeah. Right. (chuckles)
CLIENT: You know what I mean? That’s quite possible -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: What really happened. And I’m certain that he doesn’t Like I say, it’s one of those things where he’s been pushed for this. Like he is such a fearer of not just his mother but people that are like his mother. Like the wife of our landlord, he is terrified of! She doesn’t look that much like his mom but she has a lot of characteristics of the personality that his mom puts out to others.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Like in terms of being very his mom seems very progressive, very granola-y but actually like, seems like that and seems kind of quirky but actually there’s like a whole lot brewing on the inside.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like she seems like a really nice person and so our landlord’s, you know the lady Marla, she’s a little bit like that too but there’s something about maybe the way her kid is and the way she speaks or something like that. I recognized it too, that she reminded me a little of Nadine. Just a little bit.
THERAPIST: Yep. [00:14:57]
CLIENT: And he’s like, “Yeah, I’m terrified of her.” Like, “She lives above us!” How in the world? Like people who look like her, sound like her, might have the same beliefs of her, he is flipping’ terrified. Like, he told me that they were waiting for the bus and he was like, the scariest conversation they’ve had. We’ve lived there since 2010!
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And (pause) I, on some level because I’m way too easily conditioned for this, have a little bit of this myself because I notice that he’s acting a little bit afraid. And I just pick up on the hurt mentality of, “Okay, there’s behavior of people saying I still (ph) need to be cautionary about, they’re not necessarily saying I’m afraid, but I pick up on this and “
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And [being able to] (ph) And this is not just Mike. I do this a little bit with everybody. It’s an instinctive thing.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Honestly, for me, for the most part it has been far more beneficial than hurtful because back in my youth when I traveled, I didn’t speak the language and things like that. So picking up on these-
THERAPIST: All sorts of cues. [00:16:02]
CLIENT: There’s a lot of these little cues about, this is something you need to be concerned, this is something you need to be serious about, this is you know really helps!
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: Because I speak no Italian, I have no idea what’s going on here!.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But things like that, that kind of behavior, I don’t live by it but I do definitely pick up on these things. And Mike’s, for the most part, is very good on picking up like when he is not acting out, when he is actually clean, he picks up on emotions pretty well and so if I seem him being nervous about something, usually there’s a reason. [00:17:01]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But this is like one of those terrible false negatives, or false positives that he gets with anybody that reminds him of his mom. And I understand completely. And so, like, it is kind of rough, you know? It is a pain in the ass. Especially because we live in a town full of people that are, at least on the surface, a lot like his mom. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Are they? Are they not? I don’t know.
THERAPIST: But they look crunchy.
CLIENT: Yeah. Not even crunchy, it’s also a stern, no nonsense, “you’re fine” kind of behavior also a little bit.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Like a [less compassionate and causes less compassionate] (ph) on a personal level.
THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah.
CLIENT: If that makes sense.
THERAPIST: Yeah yeah.
CLIENT: You know, constantly involved (ph) with causes where if somebody trips and falls, they don’t necessarily stop to see if their okay.
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: That kind of thing.
THERAPIST: Yep.
[00:18:00]
CLIENT: So, for me for the most part though, I don’t get like that too much. Every once in a while but not really.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: I must admit that I have a preference level have avoided the watching any sort of television show or movies that involve like kind of a manipulative, derisive, controlling mother. Why? Because that’s not entertaining for me.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: I can live that if I wanted too. (pause)
THERAPIST: (clears throat)
CLIENT: But it is what it is, I guess. The other thing that’s been really stressful for me is that I have most likely Well, this is sort of one of those things where I don’t know what the status is entirely. My mother’s well, my uncle potentially could be passing away sometime soon.
THERAPIST: [Oh, wow.] (ph)
CLIENT: Again, he’s (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:18:59)
THERAPIST: (overlapping talking) Is that the uncle that had the big party at -
CLIENT: No, that’s Mike’s uncle.
THERAPIST: Oh, sorry.
CLIENT: Actually that’s [the only met] (ph) relative that likes him.
THERAPIST: Okay. (overlapping talking) Okay. Okay, I see.
CLIENT: (overlapping talking) Yeah. More or less. Eh, I don’t know. I do have a lot of uncles that have big parties but not that one.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I don’t talk about my uncle Mike very much because he’s been in the hospital pretty much most of my adult life.
THERAPIST: Awww.
CLIENT: In one way or another. And I’m not sure if I talked about this Did I mention my grandmother lost her leg to diabetes?
THERAPIST: I don’t think so.
CLIENT: Okay. In the old country, you go to the hospital if you really want to die.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Like seriously. Not only is TB rampant there but there’s a lot of other strains of stuff that is horrifying. So she still had that perception of “You just don’t do these things unless it’s really bad.” So she didn’t know she had diabetes until they were taking her leg off. That was approximately back in 1997 96. And my uncle Mike also diabetes is very very strong in my mom’s family. Like enough that I am a little over paranoid about it. [00:20:07]
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: Like if there is something I can do to raise (ph) my blood sugar, I am totally like willing to try and see if there is some basis to it. And diabetes itself is a type 2 not so much but type 1 is an autoimmune disease, which I’m already prone to. The problem is, is that it’s really muddled because there’s actually both the diabetes 1 present and then also just from bad eating habits that he’s used to.
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: Anyways, so I’m talking with my mom and he’s back. He’s been in sort of a nursing care for, like I said, most of my adult. Like in and out of like they’re not really hospitals per se but there are long term care facilities.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause)
CLIENT: And -
THERAPIST: (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:20:53) Rehab center of America.
CLIENT: Yeah, they’re sort of like rehab centers. They’re -
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:20:56]
CLIENT: Sadly enough, in places like Ohio, they are filled with people of Eastern European descent who have diabetes, who are just having systems fail. Like not only can they not walk, usually, but they also have just, you know, they’re on dialysis, they’re this -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It’s pretty bad. (pause) And so, right now, he’s back in an ICU actual hospital and it’s been really stressing my mom out because, although my aunt Iris again had diabetes as well which caused her a lot of problems with this, this is one where, in her head, she doesn’t see it as a cause and effect and it’s really bothering her. This is also the only other sibling of hers that’s still alive. That was born actually not in the US.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: So to her, although they’re not physically close now, she has a lot of memories. You know?
THERAPIST: Yep. [00:21:52]
CLIENT: Old memories and so it’s very stressful to talk to mom about this. Especially because she doesn’t seem to really underst she knows that he’s in the hospital. Like is it an infection, is it this, is it that? Do you have a heart attack? And she’s like, “I don’t know.” (pause) To me it’s been inevitable but I think it’s a really big strain to hear because knowing that my mom’s siblings that are all under the age of 70 are dying is kind of stressful because I don’t really want to lose my parents.
THERAPIST: Absolutely. And you’re carrying (ph) a lot of scary stuff (overlapping talking) today. (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:22:28)
CLIENT: Yeah! Lots (ph) scary.
THERAPIST: That and like [] (ph) stuff and -
CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:22:37) scary so much as stressful.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: Meaning (ph) I don’t think any of this is going to turn into anything super bad but I just -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah
THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s causing stress (inaudible at 00:22:47)
CLIENT: Yeah, frustrating. (inaudible at 00:22:50) mother and his mother is [very stuffed]. It’s like, we’ve tried so hard to cut the cord.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And we’re worried about how -
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:22:58) service?
CLIENT: Yeah. I’m still deeply angry and resentful about this whole thing because there’s no resolution.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: I understood when Mike’s grandmother passed that I wasn’t invited or welcome -
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: I wasn’t a member of the family back then. But they didn’t really want him to go. I was the one that needed it to happen, you know? And I understand that there is no interest in making sure that it is financially like, like [they’re still] (ph) paying for a ticket to come out there and anything (ph) like that. But the point though is, I still don’t understand why an astronomical expense to get to St. Louis. It takes like four planes. (pause) I just feel like it if they’re (sighs) since they are so mobile minded and travel so much, why the hell they couldn’t have just done this where (ph) this is not the place where you grew up or even set down roots, why they couldn’t have done this in a city that was a little bit easier. [] (inaudible at 00:24:11) we had talked about that. Anywhere, you know? [00:24:13]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Anywhere that would be easier it isn’t just ourselves, there are other people that again, are being isolated because of the fact that it’s just too hard to get there. The only way it could have been harder is back when she was living in this one area that was on the border just (ph) in Washington, [] which is on the boarder of northern Arizona and Washington. And that was even harder.
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: We flew into San Diego and drove down because it was just too expensive.
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: And too hard. It’s like she really wants to make it hard to get to her.
THERAPIST: Yeah. You’d [have to move to St. Louis to get to her.] (ph)
CLIENT: Yeah. I’m not whining because St. Louis isn’t fun -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: This could be in Alabama for all I care. I want to be able to get there with only two planes and possibly only having to not pay my electric bill and maybe not eat. [00:25:06]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You know? (scoffs)
THERAPIST: Yeah! (pause)
CLIENT: It’s (pause) really disappointing.
THERAPIST: Mhm. (pause)
CLIENT: But (pause) it is I’d like to, and maybe this is just the sour grapes aspect of it, I’d like to believe we wouldn’t get the resolution we really wanted anyway so I think we would have come away unhappy.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Tears (ph) aren’t really sad things in their family. Not like that you have to be sad but it’s much more of a I don’t know.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:25:49) you said, I can imagine that being anywhere near his mother with what she’s likely to do would be sort of (pause) upsetting and frightening and anything but restful and edifying. [00:26:07]
CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And the best part about this whole thing is that not that she’s overtly mean, she has this really really sneaky way of getting it in there. It’s so damn, like, it’s so damn pernicious how it gets in because she doesn’t act like she’s doing it but it happens (ph) just quickly.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: In ways that you know they’re so subtle and then that’s they’re so subtle for years I thought it was on me. I was like, “I’m seeing things that weren’t there.”
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: They’re there! (pause) They’re there. (pause) (sighs) I used to feel like I didn’t wish her ill, I just wanted her out of my life. I kind wish her ill at this point. (pause) [00:27:00]
I wish her a very unhappy and lonely demise.
THERAPIST: Mhm. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah, that just (pause) (sighs) You know, it’s really hard having dealt with playing the high moral ground and/or thinking this was your own fault for 20 freaking years, you know?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It’s hard. You know, and it’s very easy that’s part of the reason I’m very reticent to talk to people about it, for many reasons. Number one being is that people don’t necessarily realize how long this game’s been going on. This is not like a, “Oh, we can just sit down and talk and work this out” kind of thing. [00:28:01]
THERAPIST: Right. (pause)
CLIENT: My physical presence on the earth, in any proximity to her whatsoever, gives her great disturbance. (pause) And so we’re just sort of, especially now we’re sitting down and trying to figure out for like, family things, how we’re going to explain to our children how where their paternal grandmother is. The best thing we can do is we can basically tell them, and we’ve been thinking about this, that mental illness shows up in lots of different ways and we’re really sorry that she can’t be in her life. (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:28:43)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That’s the only thing we can think of. Because you know, our first initial things are like we’ve talked about the idea of getting, oh what’s it called, surrogate grandparents. Which you do a little bit, you know.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:28:57]
CLIENT: We talked about this and that but really at the end, you have to be [able to truth] (ph) and it’s like, “Just, she’s very mentally ill. Sometimes it’s really obvious, sometimes it’s not, you know, in terms of that kind of thing. And she just can’t be a part of our lives.”
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: You know? As much as she’s mean and nasty and she’s not nice to your dad.
THERAPIST: Yeah. And your mom.
CLIENT: Yeah. And your mom. It took me a very long time to realize that even if I wasn’t in Mike’s life that she would be kind of shitty to him, world (ph) would be kind of shitty to him. Because for a long time I used to think to myself, “If I wasn’t around, things would get easier for him.”
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: It was very easy to I mean, that’s what she wanted me to think.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: No, she wouldn’t have ignored him so much as a kid if that was true.
THERAPIST: Mhm, right.
CLIENT: It’s awful.
THERAPIST: Yep. (pause)
[00:30:00]
CLIENT: It sounds weird being especially obsessed with his family in terms of this but I have a very small family and [that is] (ph) although, it’s just me with my parents and now I’m seeing that genetically that there’s a good chance that I may not have them as long as I like and then I’ve got nothing.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: I have cousins that I’m not that close with and things like that. Mostly because of age differences. My grandmother had a lot of children and very far apart so they’re all very different ages. So it’s just -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I have a cousin Lucas that at our wedding was an infant. So -
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: And (pause) I don’t know. [00:31:00]
So I just really, I don’t know what it is but I was just really hoping for family and I didn’t get it. (pause) And that’s the big reason why I do, although I don’t see them that much, I do have such a strong bond still to my Brown Fraternity. A lot of people just put their fraternity life behind them and sort of like especially as a woman as a member of it.
THERAPIST: They feel a lot like family.
CLIENT: They feel a lot like family. Yeah. I was deeply touched to see how much of us got together when Jen died. You know?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And (pause) I know that if something really happened, that they would take care of Mike (ph) and I. Anyway, he’s not even a member of that freaking fraternity but they refer to him as their brother-in-law.
THERAPIST: Mhm. [00:31:59]
CLIENT: I know that they would take care they know him well. They are (pause) good people. Good people far away. Most of them are in the Chicago-ish area. There are a few people up here. Problem is just getting together because it’s a lot harder but you know, they’re true (ph) friends stay close. Another reason why I’m trying to go back for Brown Carnival is because I wanted to go see -
THERAPIST: Yep.
CLIENT: People I haven’t seen in a long time. One of the things that really blew my mind was that apparently I had some sort of amazing, what’s it called, [that word] (ph) legacy isn’t really the word. Like, mythology around me to people who are currently in this fraternity about things. Such that when I needed help getting some things moved so we could move up to Providence, people that I had never met before at all or even heard of, came out to help me move my giant turtle tank which is like, literally one ton. [00:33:00]
THERAPIST: Mhm. Wow.
CLIENT: Yeah, people I’ve never met and they’re like, “(chuckles) You’re Debra, we’ve heard stories about you!” Not like a bad way but like -
THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s really cool.
CLIENT: And I think it’s just because they willing to, you know, they remember the good years.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: But also [sort of] (ph) mostly accept me from the bad years.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: They saw it coming. They saw me getting thick. I didn’t know at the time, they didn’t know it at the time. They saw things going wrong. When I was supposed to get my tonsils out and they sent me home because there was already something wrong. They saw that. (pause) So, you know, it’s a (pause) about the only thing I’ve got. (pause) I’ve been so damn grateful that no matter how much I don’t keep in touch, that people still do My friend Bethany’s actually same fraternity.
THERAPIST: Mhm. [00:33:54]
CLIENT: [Same person does.] (ph) She’s much more legendary than me because she’s always lived and unusual life. But you know, same thing. If she needs something, people will come.
THERAPIST: Mhm. (pause)
CLIENT: It’s weird though because the Architecture school is so different now. Well, I mean, when I started, I was one of three women who were American born in Architecture. Now it’s far closer 50/50. It is far more sorority based for that kind and they do have people that are tradition but it’s not as much so because it’s like the culture. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all but it is weird to see how fast the culture changed.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh, yeah.
CLIENT: It’s great. But it is kind of weird going back and being like, “Wow, this is very different. (pause) How different things are now.” Obviously there’s also various culture changes but seeing how quickly And I don’t think all other universities are 50/50 at this point anymore?
THERAPIST: Uh-huh. [00:35:05]
CLIENT: I don’t know. How fast that changed. Kind of nice. I mean, there were women who went into other things but they were considered to be more girl friendly. For some reason, Architecture didn’t look (ph) more Architecture of all things had more woman in it.
THERAPIST: Huh!
CLIENT: I know. My friend Taylor went []. It’s (ph) very weird. A lot more in CS. CS actually made it a policy that they had, and this is actually something a lot of us women were proud of, we were not part of Computer Science, because for a little bit they were changing their entrance requirements for [phase to fun] (ph).
THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.
CLIENT: And we didn’t like that.
THERAPIST: Sort of like affirmative action.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: For women. Yeah.
CLIENT: And we got very frustrated about that because they felt like that instead of just actively recruiting and getting people out there and doing outreach programs, changing the requirements made feel very insulted. [00:36:04]
THERAPIST: Yep. Sure. I get it.
CLIENT: But luckily, EC never did that. Or if they do, they didn’t make it a big deal.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Which is actually a little bit more of it. It’s also the culturally, “You don’t belong here. We had to lower the ball (ph) for you.”
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: Whereas it’s not quite the same thing but it is almost the same thing in terms of your success is whether or not your peers think you belong there.
THERAPIST: Mhm. (pause)
CLIENT: But it’s just super nice to see that. I’m really looking forward to going back. I miss Brown a lot.
THERAPIST: When is carnival?
CLIENT: Second week of April.
THERAPIST: Oh! Soon.
CLIENT: Yeah, soon. Soon. I’m really really looking forward it’s basically the weekend before Easter. It’s not always that way but this year it is. It’s just nice to be able to go back and do some things. (pause)
[00:37:00] (sighs) It has been one of the most positive forces of my life to go there and it’s funny because I wasn’t even going to go there. Have I ever told you that?
THERAPIST: No.
CLIENT: I was supposed to go to Tech.
THERAPIST: Oh really?
CLIENT: Yeah! I had accepted and everything. I think my parents lost my deposit. Because at the last minute they sort of convinced me to go to Brown to stay around. They knew better that I belonged, not necessarily that I needed to be at home per se but I needed to be closer. The West Coast seemed great for a weekend visit but maybe I wouldn’t be able to do as well as I could.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And it’s true. I’m looking backwards, it was too much fun. It was like way to much fun there at the time.
THERAPIST: Ok.
CLIENT: Yeah, way too much fun. And most of the people I met were no longer there, which is even weirder. There’s a culture of sticking around after you bail out.
THERAPIST: Oh, uh-huh.
CLIENT: Yeah. But I was 17, I didn’t know. But yeah. [00:38:02]
THERAPIST: So you mean [you did have to go to time, not put up with the work?] (ph) (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:38:06)
CLIENT: (overlapping talking) Yes, it’s way to, I mean, it’s all academic but it’s not coursework based academic.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: Yeah, it’s actually kind of a funny thing. Mike should have been at Harvard. He’s double legacy, top of his class, literally top of his class, this and that, to this day we have no idea why he was rejected. His grandfather went there for grad school and his mother went there for math. But we still to this day can’t figure it out and we’s like to believe it’s a little bit of fate because I was all but supposed to go to Tech -
THERAPIST: Right, right. (inaudible at 00:38:37) Brown.
CLIENT: And I had really found myself there. I really really got, both in terms of what I wanted to do but also who I am -
THERAPIST: Yeah!
CLIENT: Socially. Socially I found myself and so I tend to just perceptually feel more myself even just on campus. It’s probably because I spent so many years there. [00:39:00]
THERAPIST: And I remember quite clearly after you came back from Jen’s, it was like her funeral or memorial, after having -
CLIENT: Yeah!
THERAPIST: Seen all those people, you seemed more at ease and happy.
CLIENT: Yeah! And that wasn’t even on campus. That was like (overlapping talking) in the steel house down the river.
THERAPIST: (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:39:20)
CLIENT: The funny thing is, they’re like, “You grew up here and you’ve never been to this place?” I’m like, “Yeah, I grew up in a posh suburb. We didn’t actually know that there were “ There’s no steel done there anymore but we didn’t know that there were (inaudible at 00:39:30) [driving towns] (ph), God forsaken places in Ohio but they really are. Didn’t matter, it was around (ph) my people.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: The summer of my birthday I spent a day on campus, it really helped to. But just being around my friends? Yeah, totally. And so I would like to be in Chicago, you know? And I feel like I’m not making it to be more than it could be because I do know regularly that our friends do get together. They might not get together every week but they do get together at least once a month. [00:40:03]
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: For just even a happy hour thing.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: One of my brother’s wicks (ph) was just in the paper because he climbed Kilimanjaro? Whatever one of the tallest mountains in the world or whatever it is. And then put up a Bengals flag and then proposed to his girlfriend and apparently the Cincinnati Post-Gazette and a couple other place picked it up. He’s in Chicago now but yeah.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: And then they mentioned his fraternity, his love of Bengals which is weird because he’s not from around there, and this and that, and that they were from Brown and it’s just funny about that.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: But it is very much an identity with And not all years are like that but definitely there is this core group of years in the mid-nineties of people that really stuck together. We were losers that became cool people. Somehow we evolved together, got it together, and changed the world sometimes. You know? [00:41:02]
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: And the best part is all these other people are super successful and they never now I’ve never mentioned that I physically work in a retail store but I haven’t not [done it] (ph) either but they still treat me like I’m not like a sellout, or not a sellout but like a loser, they treat me like I’m on the same par as them. That’s freaking awesome. (pause)
THERAPIST: Well, it’s freaking awesome. Maybe it’s also just definitely (ph) freaking true.
CLIENT: It’s true. They know that I’ve never went (ph). And that’s part of the reason why, for a long time, everyone would hear about me fighting (ph) fights with my adviser because I never let my decision in my major dictate the path I was going to take. As long as I was taking care of business with all their other classes, what the hell does it matter to him if I wanted to do this, this, and this. Because I wanted to pick up Latin because I felt like it would help me better with this or that, you know? [00:42:01]
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: And my old adviser years ago, felt as if I was a butterfly, distracted by everything. But maybe I am but I really feel like it’s made me into a much bigger, probably math (ph) of sorts or Renaissance person, than anybody else. I feel richer for it.
THERAPIST: Mhm. That’s great.
CLIENT: And so, I think the scopes the important thing. But today people see that. 1993, not so much. It wasn’t about seeing the big picture. Yeah, just do better. I don’t know. It was an accident. I don’t really care. He’s stuck in [] working for [], I’m not.
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: He thought he was going to really job after leaving universities and did not do as well as they thought it was going to. [00:43:03]
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: So it was definitely a, “Don’t leave academia for money unless you’re willing to accept that the money might not be there risk. It’s a really big risk.
THERAPIST: We need to stop.
CLIENT: Okay. I won’t (ph) be back next week.
THERAPIST: Okay, I will see you then.
CLIENT: And then [after firm] (ph) but I believe that’s the week after, this week will be the last one before going on my trip.
THERAPIST: Okay. (pause)
CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:43:29)
END TRANSCRIPT
