TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Should I lock it?

CLIENT: It doesn’t have anything on it. You can if you want to, but it’s, like, you know, “get hair appointments, call me if you need help...” It’s pretty basic.

THERAPIST: Okay. (pause)

CLIENT: (sighs) So this is not a question that I expect you’ll answer, but, um... I’m talking and I didn’t question. But... so, talking yesterday about, you know, this relationship not being contingent on how smart I am and how hard I work. Of course, I’m going to bed last night and I’m thinking, “What is it contingent on? Like, what could I do to get kicked out?” (chuckling)

THERAPIST: (chuckling) I have a list. (chuckling) In order of this.

CLIENT: (chuckling) It’s probably on your iPhone. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: (laughing) Thank you, I’m sure it is. (chuckling) [00:00:52]

CLIENT: (chuckling) Sorry.

THERAPIST: That was funny. Okay.

CLIENT: Um... but yeah. (pause) Which I guess is kind of the same question that I, um, you know, asked when we first started doing this, you know (pause) what...

THERAPIST: Is too far in doing here.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckling) I can see why you would not want to answer that.

THERAPIST: I could see why you’d want to ask.

CLIENT: (chuckling) Well, that’s good. Yeah. But, um... (pause) yeah. [00:01:45]

THERAPIST: Do you have... what does occur to you, coming up eventful, in that?

CLIENT: Well, I imagined that, like, if I were to hurt you, then that would be the end of it. Um... (pause) Realistically, you mean?

THERAPIST: Like shooting me or something?

CLIENT: Yeah, or threatening you or something.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Um... (pause) You know, the... What do I think is realistic, and what do I think, is very different tracts. You know, the thought that scares me is the thought that, like, what if it just doesn’t go anywhere. [00:02:36]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You know. (pause) What if I’m just... I don’t get better at all, or don’t progress, or... so on and so forth. Um... which is one of those that I don’t necessarily, I don’t think is realistic, I don’t think that’s really how it works, but I also am very afraid of it. Um... (pause) because, you know, I have to be smart and work hard. (chuckling) (pause) [00:03:24]

You know, obviously, like, if I kill myself, that would be the end of it. (chuckling) More or less. (pause) I don’t know. (pause)

I’m like, (pause) seventy-five pages from being done with Infinite Jest.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: I’m getting there. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: How long is that book?

CLIENT: It’s about eleven hundred pages. I’m amazed that it’s taken me so long. That should take me like a week.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I’ve been reading in fits and starts. And I think every page is, it’s like, ten-point font, and then the footnotes are like eight-point font? And so I think every page is like twice as much text as an ordinary page. [00:04:18]

THERAPIST: So yeah, it’s a really long book.

CLIENT: Yes. (chuckles) You can kind of tell that the publishers have tried to make it less intimidating and failed miserably. But you know, very thin pages... (chuckling). I think... I don’t think it’s too long. I think it’s just right, for what he’s trying to do. (sighs) You know. (pause)

I really hope, you know, I see a couple of tracts for the book to end on? And I’m really hoping it ends on the more-or-less uplifting tract? Because I’m pretty emotionally invested in this at this point, and... you know. I think it will, but I don’t know. [00:05:18]

Anyway, so there was a (pause) passage that I was reading yesterday or the day before. One of the characters is in the hospital, in like crazily intense pain, like you’re like, drifting in and out of consciousness. And he’s a narcotics addict, so he’s refused painkillers in an effort to stay sober. Because if he takes painkillers he’s going to go back. And so he talks about, or he thinks about, living not even a day at a time but a second at a time, or saying no single second is uninterruptable, living in a single space from heartbeat to heartbeat. That was good for me to read, good for me to think about. [00:06:12]

So, going to work last night, I said, “Well, right now I’m just walking. And then I’m going to get to work and I’ll just be doing the things that I’m doing every second, and then eventually it’ll be over.” (pause) Not so good for planning, but...

THERAPIST: Well, good for getting...

CLIENT: Getting through things, yeah. (pause) Yeah. So... (pause)

Yesterday I was a bit better than the days before, so... (pause) yeah. Not unmanageable. It didn’t really feel unmanageable.

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause)

CLIENT: I think the time left was good.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:07:35]

That’s what I used to do, um, at about this time in the semester, actually, when I start getting stressed out, I’d just not think about bad, just not think about it at all. Just say, “What do I have to do right now?” And then I’d do that. Or, “What do I have to do next?” And then I’d do that. I’d just work through the stress.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

I wonder if it’s (pause) worth it all to be here, actually. Um... (pause)

CLIENT: I’m kind of antithetical to avoiding reflection. [00:08:33]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. And (pause) I think you (pause) I guess we’ve said it, there I have to talk about (pause) leaving those things, how they’re there, like how much pain you’re in, and how things are.

CLIENT: Yeah. If I talk about it, it becomes true. And if I talk about it, I have to experience it. [00:09:24]

THERAPIST: And, if somebody else hears about it, then that may have consequences, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah. Although it’s also, I mean, like, active consequences and the lack of consequences that this caused? It’s hard for somebody else to hear about it, and for nothing to happen. Like, that I talk about... it’s hard for me to talk about how bad reentering, and there’s really not much that you can do. Um, you know, you helped calm and you center and that’s good, but it just keeps getting really hard. So, like, if I talk about it, then I have to (pause) you know, I end up feeling more alone, or more helpless. Because it’s just there. (pause) [00:10:45]

THERAPIST: Hurt is significant but I think there’s a slight gap in what you said which I think is sort of an important word (pause) where, um (pause) you sort of went from saying of course I’m not going to get it, my memory, but you said, it was something like, going from, you know, you say stuff and nothing happens (pause) to, “because there’s not much I can do.”

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: And (pause) I think that “because there’s not much I can do” is a sort of a, a more, like a more sort of grown up perspective? I think I know what you mean, I understand that. But I think... [00:11:49]

CLIENT: That’s more distancing?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, and I think (pause) again, it’s something in that, it was the first part, I guess that why you can feel so alone, or so helpless, or other things.

CLIENT: That just by knowing that there’s a limited amount they can do, I still feel like you ought to be able to do something.

THERAPIST: Yeah, or you just want me to be able to do something. Saying stuff like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:12:38]

You know, I spend a lot of time trying not to get my hopes up. (pause)

Yeah, so I I thought a lot about whether you would just say, I am wondering what I could do to get me kicked out, because I knew you weren’t going to answer.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: That kind of thing. (pause) Yeah. (pause) [00:13:35]

You know, I’m not really a very good subject at all. (chuckling) I guess in a sense that in the idea, I guess is to moderate your desires. I’m not very good. I just want what I want. I wanted to walk. (pause)

THERAPIST: But I think what you’re in your words, wanting help. (pause) Like wanting an answer to your question, I really need to do something to help you feel better already.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. (pause). Yes. (pause) But when you put it like that, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to want those things. [00:14:39]

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: But, um... (pause) I don’t know, it just seems (pause) It seems like (pause) it seems like my life has tended to train me that there is not help to be had. (pause) Yeah. I guess I just (pause) feel pretty disappointed.

THERAPIST: I think this is a question you’re wrestling pretty intensely with here, what kind of help are you going to get, and what difference it’s going to make? [00:15:43]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah. (pause) And?

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: You know, what happens when what people think will help me, or what is supposed to help me doesn’t actually help.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. So then I’d kick you out?

CLIENT: Um (pause) you know, more thinking of things like... (pause) people saying things like (pause), people saying, “Don’t isolate!” And I’m just like, “No, I really don’t want to spend time with people.” It doesn’t help me. It makes things worse. (pause) Yeah. [00:16:32]

(pause) But the things that I need are not necessarily the things that other people need, or the things that people think I need. So... (pause)

I, um (pause) So, this was hard, the hard thing this week. I asked the priest at my church for help.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah, I said, “I just don’t want to do it anymore.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Oh, did I tell you about that?

THERAPIST: And he suggested coming in and volunteering.

CLIENT: Yeah. So he wrote back, and he was very nice, and suggested a couple things I could do. So I have to (pause) do that. I don’t know why that is scary for me, but like, (pause) when I sat down to write the e-mail, I started crying because I wasn’t worried. Like, that kind of crying. (pause) I don’t know. (pause) [00:17:47]

THERAPIST: So I think there are probably things in the question that you asked about what you could do to get kicked out of here that I (pause) probably am not appreciating. (pause)

CLIENT: It felt like an off the cuff thing.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Um, it’s different. But also I think, (pause) I mean, I get that. I don’t, I really don’t understand, I mean, I’d understand if we argue in here. I don’t (pause) I don’t understand how to have a relationship that’s not contingent on what I do. (pause) You know, that doesn’t require constant upkeep, in the form of me performing some version of myself. (pause) [00:18:55]

THERAPIST: Um... (pause)

CLIENT: I don’t know if this is the relationships I already have, or what if they’re not? I just don’t know. (pause) And sometimes it doesn’t really matter, or affect the relationships I already have because I don’t think that’s what’s going on. So, you know. I think I have to keep things up whether I do or not.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, certainly, you know, it occurred to me just as you were saying initially that (pause) it’s not really that way for you.

CLIENT: No, I don’t think so.

THERAPIST: I mean, you know. If you really made an effort at it for a long time and you were really awful, you could probably screw things up. But I think for what we’re talking about, it’s not really, nothing too big. [00:19:56]

CLIENT: No, that makes sense.

THERAPIST: But I have no doubt at all that it entirely feels that way to you, I’m not calling that into question.

CLIENT: Which is why it’s actually really bothering me that he is not asking me to do any of the dishes, or cook, or do anything. Which is kind of freaking me out.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think it scares the hell out of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Um... yeah.

THERAPIST: Much worse than (pause) feeling a lot of demand, because I get a lot of feeling and not knowing what to do with something. [00:20:49]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It feels like at some point in the future (pause) I would regret not his not having for me to be a zombie. But at some point in the future, he would burn out. Or he would be angry at me.

THERAPIST: If he only told you that really, he can’t do more than a load of laundry every week without getting resentful.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

Yeah. You know, I have been going back and forth over whether to talk to him and say, “Okay, you know, I really need to be doing more of this shit.” And I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Part of me thinks that the place I’m most uncomfortable is the best place for me, in that way. And I think he’s going to burn out. (pause) [00:22:45]

I only spoke to him, like, every single time. (chuckling, crying)

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. It’s okay. (pause) Ah.

I have an impression that if I don’t tell you more about, like, what the rules and regulations, or my demands, or sort of the strategies are in here, that I’m really leaving you hanging. (pause)

CLIENT: You are, but, you know, I’ve been kind of hanging for a while, and I’m getting to be okay with it.

THERAPIST: No, you’re not. (laughing)

CLIENT: (laughing) [00:23:48]

No. No, but I’m trying.

THERAPIST: I... yep. (pause) Yeah, so (pause) your (pause) immediate response there was to take care of me, huh? I mean, at least, that was the proximal need was, because, you know, I just don’t think you’re leaving me hanging. I’m... it was

CLIENT: Yeah, but I’m worried -

THERAPIST: I’m sorry, it was a lousy job. At first all you said was, “I’ve been hanging here for a while.” [00:24:46]

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, but the thing is, if I said anything less true than that, then you wouldn’t buy it. (laughing)

THERAPIST: (laughing) Um, yeah. And (pause) I guess it’s, ah, so hard to take knowledge how I was going to say terrifying, but it’s probably not just that. I mean, like, I’m thinking that’s what you really feel, like I’m kind of washing my hands of you, or really needy, or something? [00:25:46]

CLIENT: I guess the image that comes into mind is watching me tread water, kind of letting me keep trying to stay afloat.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: So yeah, that makes me angry, because, you know...

THERAPIST: Sure. (pause)

CLIENT: And I deal with it by saying, “That’s just how it is, for you.” You know? That’s just how your job goes.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: There’s probably a good reason for it.

THERAPIST: And you weren’t dealing with it, but you were just describing it? [00:26:46]

CLIENT: Describing being angry? Or? (pause)

THERAPIST: Sure, okay. I mean (pause) like, (pause) you said, you know, it’s like I’m treading water, and you know, that does make me angry, and I deal with it by saying that’s just how your job goes. I’m saying, well, okay, so that’s how you deal with it. That’s what you tell yourself to help manage being angry like that. But what if you weren’t dealing with it? You were just saying what it was like? I guess I wonder.

CLIENT: That sounds hard. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I guess so. (pause)

CLIENT: Um, I feel frustrated. (pause) [00:28:15]

You know, part of me is convinced that if I just have all the information, that (pause) the information is what I need? That I’ll be able to protect myself that way a little bit? (pause)

And part of me thinks that’s not much to ask. (pause) And there’s a stingray impulse to counter all of these things as soon as I say them, just so you know. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Okay. (pause) [00:29:19]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I start to feel panicky, like I really will drown, if I don’t have that precise piece of information.

THERAPIST: And that information is, what are the rules, what could you do to get kicked out of here?

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess so, but it doesn’t really matter what the information is, because, like, that’s kind of the way I feel whenever I ask you a question and you don’t answer. I guess. I don’t actually know whether that’s true or not.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Eh, that’s how it feels right now. Um... (pause) [00:30:15]

I guess part of me feels like (pause) I’m not going to be able to take care of you, and then you’re going to blame me for that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That I won’t have the information I need to take care of you, and then you’ll get hurt, and that’ll be on me. (pause) In situations when that happens, it doesn’t matter how much I tell myself that I didn’t have the information, so it’s not my fault. It still feels like my fault. (crying)

THERAPIST: Right. Well, and in addition to it being your fault (pause) you totally lost out. (pause) You know what I mean? Like, you know, if I say, “Well, you know, forget it. This is not...” (pause) you will blame yourself, and feel like you should know that you shouldn’t have done X, Y, or Z, and -

CLIENT: It’ll be over.

THERAPIST: in addition to having screwed it up, whoever’s fault it was is gone.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’ll hurt the relationship. Yeah. Um... you know, I’m not (pause) it did not feel like I think I would do anything to... (pause) [00:31:37]

THERAPIST: I think you’re afraid you’re emotionally going to wear me out, that, you know, you’re going to continue to tell me, maybe increasingly so, how bad you’re feeling, what that’s like to do things that feel like they make heavy demands on me, and kind of stay with you, and to really know what it’s like for you, and that it’s going to get to a point where I just don’t want to hear it anymore, or it’s too much.

CLIENT: Yes. All of those things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Now I think you’re afraid you’re going to, like, you know, start flogging me on the grass. (chuckling)

CLIENT: (chuckling) Yeah. Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: And I think this is something that’s probably been changing a little bit over the month. I think you have, you know, you’ve told me sometimes how bad you’ve felt. But I think (pause) I’m thinking probably your motives have changed a little bit. Like I think early on probably often out of desperation where you’d just say, “Fuck it, I don’t care, I’m going to just jump off the cliff and... say how I’m feeling.” And now I think you do a little more deliberately? [00:33:13]

CLIENT: Yeah. Um...

THERAPIST: I’m not saying you need me, it’s just, yeah -

CLIENT: Part of that is that it’s become easier for me to manage through the more desperate times on my own, so I feel less like I need to call you?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I also, you know, (pause) am (pause) (sighs) you know, I do feel like my job in keeping myself safe is at least partly to let you know how I am, safe I am, or I’m... that I’m like, you know, telling you how I feel bad is kind of like one of the points. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I realize you said I’m not working hard.

THERAPIST: (chuckling) That never was said. (pause) [00:34:34]

CLIENT: I hate that about myself. (pause) And then I’m not quite sure what “that” is. But... (pause)

THERAPIST: That you’re always working hard, you mean?

CLIENT: That it’s so important to me to be (pause) (sighs) yeah. (crying) To be trying. I feel like -

THERAPIST: I wonder if that’s because you know that (pause) it’s not really quite what it looks like. I don’t mean that you’re not working very hard. I think you work incredibly hard. That isn’t what I mean. But... (pause) [00:35:25]

CLIENT: But that’s not actually it’s not there isn’t

THERAPIST: It’s about protecting yourself from something in your heart. Understanding the subject makes it improve, but then it’s like...

CLIENT: You don’t need to do that. That... “It’s okay that you are this way.” It’s fine, you really don’t. (chuckling) I like that right there.

THERAPIST: It’s like, um... (pause) I don’t know. (pause) Well, it’s like trying to control the situation. You’ll just get in the way. [00:36:29]

CLIENT: Um... my head is thinking about couples therapy on Wednesday. Our therapist said that, “Well, it sounds like you guys are both really anxious, but you manage your anxiety in very different ways, and this is how you control the situation, and one of you is out of control.” And we left, like, “I don’t think this is out of control.” And I was like, “It is.” (chuckling) I was like, “For me, anyway.” I think it was for him too, but I also don’t want to (pause) it’s not about what I think so it’s okay. (pause) Yeah.

It just, it feels pathetic when I realize how desperately I’m trying to control a situation that I cannot control. (pause) But feeling pathetic doesn’t actually help me become reconciled to not being able to control the situation. Yeah, yeah. [00:37:42]

THERAPIST: You didn’t like it when I said the thing about it being understanding. I know you claimed that you don’t have to do that, I think you didn’t like it.

CLIENT: No, it... (pause) it kind of felt like you were babying me. (pause) You know, and sometimes I do need that reassurance, but I don’t like it when I’m here. (pause) Plus (pause) you know, this gets back to the Olympics of suffering question, but I don’t really know that you know what I’ve been through. Like (pause) in the grand scheme of things. It hasn’t been that bad. Except it’s been really bad. (chuckling) But... (pause) it doesn’t look that bad from the outside. [00:39:03]

THERAPIST: To you.

CLIENT: Yes. And to other people, I think, like, to other people. Maybe I have not done a very good job of describing it to other people. (pause)

You know, people ask me why I’m so afraid of people getting angry, and I say, “Well, my dad used to yell a lot when I was a kid.” But that doesn’t mean very much to them. And they say, “Did he hit you?” and I say, “No.” And they say, “Okay.” (pause) And I have to insist, no, it was really bad. (sighs) (pause) It’s much easier to say, well, I guess I’m just a wimp. [00:40:26]

THERAPIST: Right. Than to say, you know, a lot of time, he would get inexplicably get angry and blame things on me and get explosive, and leave, and I couldn’t predict or control, but which, along with all the other things that happened, made me feel like I had to take care of everything so as not to make somebody angry and feel like my parents were kind of there.

CLIENT: Yeah. That takes a long time to explain to people.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it does. (pause)

CLIENT: That, and most of the time if I have to explain it to somebody, I don’t really want that person to know me that well. (pause) Yeah. Yeah. (pause) [00:41:24]

I feel like I’ve gotten a lot more cagey about (pause) letting people know who I am and where I’m coming from, because I feel like people have exploited that a lot more in the last three or four years than they have for most of my life. (pause)

I really don’t like talking about how bad it is. It’s hard. And it’s not that I’m aware that it’s hard, because, you know, I work hard. That’s why I come here, with the intention of doing the work. But (pause) (inaudible) (pause) [00:43:14]

There are a couple of long-term sub teaching positions that start in the spring. I’m debating whether to apply now or not, or wait after the spring.

THERAPIST: Public school?

CLIENT: Private school.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I don’t know. Part of me thinks it doesn’t look good on my resume to be jumping from job to job. And part of me thinks more teaching experience is better, I’m looking for part time positions.

THERAPIST: Just day school?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I think I’ll probably have to apply to boarding schools too, just because I need to cast a wide net to stay in this area. But I would rather work in a day school. Boarding schools are just a lot of work. And the kind of work that I’m less capable of right now, I just don’t...

THERAPIST: It’s just more of a pain than anything.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: We should stop for now. We’ll talk more.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Thanks.

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