TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I’ll put it down right here. But I don’t yet know what my schedule’s going to be that week, but okay. But you are out.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay. Is that too bright?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’m not very sensitive to light, I think. (pause)

So, I feel like you’ve been really hard on me this week. Fucking pushing me. Is there, like, a reason for that?

THERAPIST: (pause) Hm. (pause) I wasn’t aware I was.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I mean, I wasn’t (pause) yeah, what are your thoughts?

CLIENT: Just, I was leaving yesterday, and I was like, “Man, I’ve been kind of worn out every day this week.” Yeah. Which is, you know, useful. (pause) [00:01:15]

THERAPIST: Well, what do you mean?

CLIENT: I mean, like (pause) I feel like you’ve been calling me out on stuff more often. You know, like, I’d kind of say, “I was okay with that,” and you’d be like, “No, you weren’t.” (chuckling)

THERAPIST: That’s right. (chuckling)

CLIENT: Or (pause) I don’t know, I feel like you’ve been more direct about things. I think that this thing that is really hard is going on with you. (pause) I don’t know what it is, any more than usual. But, like, I just kind of feel like I’ve been through a wringer this week.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which isn’t a bad thing.

THERAPIST: No, I think you’re right. I think of a few instances where I’ve, I think like that, which I imagine are some of the ones you’re referring to, and (pause) I’ll give it some thought. [00:02:21]

CLIENT: Okay. I mean, maybe it’s also that, like, it’s been a really hard week, but I haven’t been having a hard time when I’ve been here, and so it’s been both like, really hard in general, and I’m kind of together enough in sessions to actually push harder, if that makes sense. (pause)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Okay. (pause)

THERAPIST: It’s possible I’ve just sort of been clear about some things.

CLIENT: Okay. (pause)

THERAPIST: But I’ll try.

CLIENT: Okay. (pause) So I had a good day today, which is why I can, you know, bring that up. Yeah, I like, really didn’t want to go to work today, and it turned out to be really good, and everybody was nice to me, and I worked really hard, and got shit done, and nothing tragic happened, and yeah. It was nice. Got a week off, which I wasn’t expecting to get. I wasn’t expecting to get Christmas off, so I like that. [00:03:38]

THERAPIST: I see. Good.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So (pause) bringing it up with me was difficult to do.

CLIENT: It wasn’t actually, but I could see it being difficult. (pause) Yeah, it feels like the sort of thing that, it would be more than I would want to talk about, if I was like, it was last week. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I wouldn’t want to talk about anything. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) Glad it was a good day. [00:04:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, me too. You said yesterday that you thought it was very hard for me to be here. Because you know, I’m sad and I don’t want to talk about it and I don’t want to make you experience it. And that’s true, but there’s also a sense in like, if I’m here, like, I want to be as sad as I can. (pause) Yeah. So. Yeah. Yesterday was very hard.

THERAPIST: Here?

CLIENT: No, just in general.

THERAPIST: Okay. (phone rings) Oh, shit, I’m so sorry.

CLIENT: It’s okay. (pause) Yeah, I went to work yesterday, I only worked from like 7:30 to 11:45, which is the worst shift, the worst, because you don’t get a lunch, so you don’t get to like, sit down for more than, you get one ten-minute break. [00:05:38]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And then you’re closing.

THERAPIST: So it’s in the morning.

CLIENT: Yeah, in the evening. And you’re closing, so you’re like, sweeping, mopping, doing all the dishes, doing all the shit work. And you don’t get to sit down. And it’s, like, evening, so more of kind of like, strange people come in, and I’m, like, less emotionally able to deal with them. So maybe it’s not that more strange people come in, maybe it’s just like, I can’t deal with people. So I was, like, walking to work, and I was seriously, like, “Okay, so if things get really bad, I can just like, go make myself throw up in the bathroom and then say that I’m sick and go home.” (chuckling) I actually like told the shift supervisor, the guy that was closing with me, that I had had this thought, and he was like, “Maybe you should look for a different job.” (chuckling) [00:06:33]

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: I was like, “Yeah. Yeah.” (chuckling) So then, like, today was great, so... Today was like, this is why I work at coffee shops. Because I like people, I like getting to know people. I’m starting to feel like I know the people who come in, more or less, and like, that’s really nice. (pause)

And you know, I was moving fast. I was everyone else there I move faster than, so, you know, I wasn’t I end up going flat out and being really conscious that I am kicking some ass, or I didn’t have to go flat out. So that was good.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I like sitting down. (pause) [00:07:32]

THERAPIST: Did you have an eight-hour shift today?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, I keep them from working on myself. So I just don’t (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause)

CLIENT: So yesterday, this was like before I went to work and right before dinner, (pause) James needed to have a conversation about sex. And I was like, “Hard, hard conversation.” And he really needed to talk about it. And I (pause) obviously, if he needed to talk about it, I need to talk about it. (pause) So, you know, half of my mind was right there, and half of my mind was like, “Do you really have to talk about this now?” (chuckling) Really? [00:09:08]

THERAPIST: What was up?

CLIENT: Um...

THERAPIST: Did you (inaudible)?

CLIENT: Uh, not really. Um, mostly, just, like he wants to have a lot more sex than I do. And (pause) it wasn’t (pause) like he was, he wasn’t asking for anything so much as saying, how do we take care of both of us since this is the case? (pause) It was fine, (pause) just (pause) you know, it’s really hard for me not to feel guilty. And by hard, I mean I do not find it possible. (chuckling) (pause) Yeah. But I also just, like, you know, even when I’m doing well, I don’t want to have sex every day. And when I’m not doing well... uh. It’s just really hard. (pause) [00:10:31]

You know, in a sense, like, I would much rather be having sex every day than not. It’s just like, I just can’t do it. Like I want to want to have sex every day, it’s like, we have good sex, like, it’s really fun, I like it. I just, I don’t have anything emotionally all of the time. Like, it’s hard. (pause) Like, you know, sometimes it’s hard even for him to, like, touch me. Like, I, just like, can’t stand it because I’m trying really hard to (pause) stay together, or something. Not like stay together (pause) not cry because that’s not what the effort is. Or I don’t know. (pause) Yeah. [00:11:45]

THERAPIST: Do you want to be tired?

CLIENT: Not really. I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s just what I’m thinking about.

(chuckles) I came back from work today, and James wasn’t in the apartment. And his wedding ring was lying in the middle of the floor. And so I was like, “Has he been abducted?” (chuckling) So I called him, and he was like, “Yeah, I was playing with it, and it dropped off, and then I was too lazy to go get it. And then (inaudible)”

THERAPIST: Better story for your wife.

CLIENT: Oh, I didn’t even think about that at all.

THERAPIST: Okay, well...

CLIENT: This morning he was like, “If you lose that, I am not going to be sympathetic.” [00:12:48]

No, I (pause) That, like, doesn’t occur to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m real tired.

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause) [00:13:34]

CLIENT: I have plans to go out but somebody can work tonight, after she closes. So we’ll see if it happens or not. You know, I really want to, I haven’t been to a bar in probably three months. No, not three. But at least two months.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I really like bars. I just don’t like people right now. If I could be alone in a bar, that would be good. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or a bar where everybody’s leaving. That would be nice. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: I see. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. She’s one of the ones who (sighs) she’s really nice, but (chuckling) has kind of taken me under her wing. Which is really sweet, but also involves a lot of giving me advice on my life. And (pause) I just haven’t got a lot of time for that. But not, apparently, enough less time that I make it clear to people that’s not what I want. Because everybody wants to give me advice on my life. Tell me their story, or I don’t know. Mostly giving advice on fixing my life. Which I haven’t told them anything about. [00:15:21]

THERAPIST: That doesn’t stop them?

CLIENT: Nope. I haven’t told anybody at work that I’m depressed.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So I think there’s like a... I worry that creates more of a vacuum than anything else, and that they all know that I was in the hospital, but I haven’t told anybody what for. I like, mentioned to somebody once that I take Adderall, and then like, a totally different person mentioned that to me again, and I was like, “What?”

THERAPIST: That they take Adderall?

CLIENT: No, that I did. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And she was like, “I heard that.” And I was like, “Okay...” (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And it was not a (pause) you know, I (pause) it didn’t make me uncomfortable. It was just odd.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I expect you were a little more struck by (pause) saying it over here and hearing it over there than -

CLIENT: Yeah, than by people knowing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, um, (pause) thus I have to remember that that confirms that not telling people about the depression is probably the right choice at work. (chuckling). [00:16:38]

THERAPIST: Right. (pause)

CLIENT: Unfortunately, now that I know we’re going home for Christmas, now I have to buy...

THERAPIST: Is this to your family, or to James’?

CLIENT: To both.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So like, where are we going to spend Christmas, (inaudible) for each person, you know. How are we going to get there? (pause) [00:17:39]

I don’t think Jason is going to come visit me this weekend. Which was another like, really glad to see him, but, you have to figure out where he’s going to stay, and have him here... (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Everything is just hard. (pause) [00:18:27]

THERAPIST: I’m kind of annoyed to find that you wouldn’t mind some time to yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) And it (pause) it’s hard when James is coming home, in that we’re both pretty, you know, good about giving each other space. But I kind of want all of my time to myself. I just (pause) just don’t want to talk most of the time, you know?

Yeah, so like, without making home, and I called him to be like, “Are you okay?” and he said, “Oh, I’m coming, on my way back.” But I said, “Okay, well, I’m not finished talking.” And he said, “Oh, do you want me to stay away? I can go see Chad.” And in retrospect, I should have said yes. But I said, “No, that’s fine, but I probably don’t want to talk.” And you know, I told him I had time off, and that ended up, you know, we just talked for the last, that forty-minute slot. I just like, don’t want to talk to my husband. (pause) Yeah, I just don’t want to talk to anybody. [00:20:10]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause)

Yeah, I sometimes find that it’s (pause) a struggle in a sense here.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I just, like, don’t have a theme.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think you have a theme.

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Um.

CLIENT: What is it? Hating people? (chuckling)

THERAPIST: “No, I can talk to people. Yeah, even when you started off, it was like, ‘Just look what talking to you has done to me this week.’“

CLIENT: No, I didn’t mean it like that at all. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: You know what you said.

CLIENT: (chuckling) That distracts from the point.

THERAPIST: Ever since I heard it, you were (pause) it seems to me like a lot of things. At one level, saying (pause) you know, I appreciate Chad that in some ways this is probably helpful. [00:21:28]

CLIENT: Oh, not probably. Definitely.

THERAPIST: Definitely. However, it was very hard. And (pause) you know, and in that sense (pause) you know it’s in part something you don’t want. You know, even if it’s something you do. And you know, stay in the context of like (pause) today’s a pretty good day, and I’m going to see this woman tonight. And I do but I don’t, and look what happens when I told somebody something at work. And you know. I guess I’m hearing...

CLIENT: Sounds like I’m crabby.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause) [00:22:40]

CLIENT: The point of this is, you know, I’m suicidal, you know. You really have to...

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Every conversation has to, like, work through that. But I won’t acknowledge it for (pause) It’s like I open my mouth and what I wanted to say every single time is, “I feel like shit.” And what I actually say is, whatever we’re talking about. I mean, not every time, but a lot of the time. (cries)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

And now that I guess that it’s always a lot about the other person, I need to concentrate with you the fact that you don’t get to say actually what you want to say. [00:23:39]

CLIENT: Yeah. Other people don’t feel like that. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

Yeah, I don’t know, and I’m not surely able to say that you should say it necessarily, but (pause) it just makes our relation sort of, you should say anything.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It’s like, it’s hard to say the relevance of any subject.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I don’t like that. (pause) I don’t want it. (pause) [00:24:30]

You know, the thing that was good about work today was the feeling that I was connected to people in some way. (pause) But it’s not so much that I can’t connect with people as (pause) it’s no, maybe it is. Maybe it’s just a strain to connect with people. (pause) It’s like, trying to like, lift something heavy really far out, like hold it very far out. (pause) [00:25:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I imagine you’re having that kind of experience all the time, and that there’s something about it that’s like, familiar from your old life, really. (pause)

CLIENT: Hm. (pause) I don’t know. It feels recent.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But (pause) you know, I remember feeling very, very eliminated from everyone as a child. It was worse then, because I couldn’t tell anyone anything. Nobody knew I was depressed, as far as I knew. And even after they did, I didn’t talk to anybody about it. It was like, other people did not see it as well as my parents. (pause) But you know, then I (inaudible). Yeah, I kind of went away. [00:26:55]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. That was different.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not good.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, high school life. I had friends that I could talk about it with. Of course, they were friends who were also themselves depressed, so that was a little bit of a downer as well, but I think it was actually pretty good for all of us. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.

CLIENT: So (pause) you know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Worse than I thought. I remember like, you had a train of thought that you were cool with, there was a study saying something about misery loves company? Studies show that misery doesn’t exactly love company. Misery loves miserable company. And in other words, you know... (chuckling)

CLIENT: (chuckling) When you’re miserable, you want to be around other miserable people? Yes. (chuckling) That’s really a problem. I have enough sad people in my life. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: I was thinking of high school specifically, you know, where...

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You were saying it’s helpful to have people around you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Just so you know, Jenna (inaudible) was really depressed as well. But I never really knew that until like, we were adults. And we never talked about it. I just felt like I was the only person. (pause) [00:28:38]

She was, like, (pause) I don’t know. She was like, just horrible for inexplicable reasons. Other than my mom. (pause) Yeah. But even she (pause) you know, she would never act like she was sad around us. But then she would talk about how depressed she had been in ways that were, in retrospect, not very appropriate. You know, act like she was going to kill herself. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh. Like?

CLIENT: Until I was Actually, (pause) basically until I was an adult, and I decided I didn’t care, I was terrified that she was going to kill herself. (pause) (chuckling) You know, and I still care, so... that’s still there. (pause) Yeah, I definitely felt it was my job to care. But (pause) she wouldn’t, you know, it was when she got so she was doing better, then she would talk about how she had been really sad, and then she would share. And when she was actually sad, it was (pause) it was just strange. You know, she would just not be as present, or something. (pause) [00:30:44]

So, yeah, I knew it happened to people. But I didn’t know anybody else. (pause) I was so scared that somebody would find out, for years. But I don’t know why. Like, why I get afraid to tell people anything. Or was it just me? I don’t know. I feel like children are secretive about random things, but...

THERAPIST: That’s fine.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s like the most important thing. Way more important than being well, or getting well or feeling better, was making sure nobody knew I wasn’t well. It feels like I felt like they were going to hurt me, or they were going to use that as ammunition to hurt me.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: So I ignored that, or let (inaudible) look alike. (pause)

Well, you know, I got bullied a lot, so... and that’s how bullies work. They find the thing that hurts, and make it hurt more. (pause) [00:32:36]

Yeah, but it sucks that I wasn’t good at sports. That made me sad. So then, they would make me feel worse about it. (pause) Or like, I didn’t have clothes that fit. Or that needed cleaning.

THERAPIST: I sense in terms of kids at school, (pause) that doesn’t (pause) it seems to me it cleared up with your parents or your therapist.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Then I guess I imagine you were pretty sure that they would hurt you as well, if not intentionally, then sort of cruelly, like the other kids. [00:34:12]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But (pause) by (pause) seeing all the ways people do now, you can’t know who’ll care about you, and who’ll hurt you and sometimes make you feel bad without trying to in a way.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Maybe there’s something there, though, because you’re really terrified of it.

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I remember really distinctly telling my therapist that I had been playing basketball and nobody passed to me the entire day, and that made me really upset, and then I felt really horrible, and I was just really sad all the time. And I was in seventh grade, and I haven’t seen that same woman since I was seven. So like, five years. (pause) Um, I can’t remember what we talked about, or anything. (chuckling) You know, she had some games, and so I wanted to play the games all the time, and so we played games sometimes. But I don’t remember. (pause) [00:35:40]

I remember her telling me once in like, eighth grade, that if you look up at the ceiling, it’s easier not to cry. So I was like, “Pro tip!” (laughing)

That was a good expression.

THERAPIST: From all of us, I’m sorry.

CLIENT: That’s okay, I liked her a lot. She just (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There’s like, a disconnect or something. I don’t know. I don’t know. (pause)

She gave me an IQ test once? I think like, my dad had asked her, or it was something for applying to boarding school, but they wouldn’t tell me what I got. (chuckling) I was like, really upset about that. Like, “I would not have taken this if I had known that.” (chuckling) That’s bullshit. But yeah, I don’t remember. (pause) [00:36:53]

You know, I remember constantly wanting to cry, or crying. (pause)

THERAPIST: I’m just thinking about the intensity of the year that you sort of... could you convey about it that makes you imagine actually, there was something catastrophic you were worried about. You know?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Other than the things we’ve brought up, like, are bad, but (pause) you’re really wound up about it, it seems to me.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I honestly have no idea to what extent my parents and the therapist knew that I was depressed up until I... I just don’t know. [00:38:21]

You know, they put me on Paxil when I was in the sixth grade, so... Yeah, I was like...

THERAPIST: They kept you going to therapy for eight years or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Clearly something was up. But I don’t know, my dad just generally is of the opinion that therapy is good for people. But I don’t think he’s terribly discriminating about like, who you go to therapy with or what kind of therapy? So like, I think he used to give Amanda a hard time, because she would get, like, would not get along with therapists, and would be, like, I don’t want to see that person anymore. And (pause) that was not acceptable to him. Just like, really? (pause) But I don’t know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, that was hard to hear, but (pause) usually even with a younger kid, and unquestionably with a kid who’s in seventh or eighth grade, you’ve got to tell them something about what’s going on. (pause)

CLIENT: They might have told me and I just didn’t...

THERAPIST: Yeah, maybe she did.

CLIENT: I mean... what do you mean, like, what about what’s going on? Like what kind of information? [00:39:42]

THERAPIST: Whatever you think about what’s going on, though. I mean, like, in the same way that I try to convey to you what I...

CLIENT: What you see out there?

THERAPIST: Yeah. You would obviously put it differently to a kid, or (pause) but (pause) you don’t just do an examination of the kid and then talk to the parents, you know?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember talking with her a lot.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I don’t remember what we talked about.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, maybe she did and for whatever reason you don’t remember it.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t remember.

THERAPIST: I guess what I’m saying is that (pause) it would seem to me striking if she would not if she, in fact, never conveyed to you -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: like, you know, here’s what I think is going on, here’s why I think you have this, here’s what I think will help, here’s what you’re here to work on. [00:40:48]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, whatever. But...

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I don’t know. (pause) Certainly I’ve forgotten the “here’s what you’re here to work on.” Definitely. I mean, I don’t know, maybe I viewed the list and “here’s what we’ll work on, you not being so sad.” (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause)

CLIENT: I think we talked a lot about my missing my mom, especially for the first couple of years. That was pretty brutal.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) And I kept, I kept thinking that I had some control over it, that if I complained enough that I knew things would change? Nope. (pause) Yeah. [00:42:12]

I don’t know exactly when I realized that that was never going to happen. Not just well, both, that was never going to happen, and that never could have happened. They were different. But, you know, I think “that was never going to happen,” probably high school, and when I went to boarding school. (pause) Yeah.

You know, I wanted to like, get myself legally declared an adult so I could live with her. I was going to do anything. But... (pause)

THERAPIST: What do you mean? So like, legally that would put you in high school or something?

CLIENT: No, like... I was like -

THERAPIST: When you were eight?

CLIENT: Yes! (chuckling)

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: Or, you know, I thought about petitioning the court. But I didn’t know how to do that. [00:43:28]

THERAPIST: Did she want you to live with her?

CLIENT: I think so, but I don’t think she pushed for it. Like, she didn’t sue my dad over custody. She only said she wanted us to live with her, but I don’t even know what that means. You know, she continues to maintain that she wanted us to live with her. But and she says that one of her big regrets is that she didn’t push for custody. But I’m also -

THERAPIST: This must be a heartbreaking issue for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like...

CLIENT: I’ve mostly forgotten about it, and it’s probably been for a good reason. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine it’s an important part of it, but it’s always like, how much did she want you? [00:44:27]

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And it’s gone in the past now, so you can look back and say, well, she can’t put me before work and she can’t, blah blah blah, and of course, but that can’t feel good, I think it doesn’t.

CLIENT: Yeah, and you know, it was really clear to me at first that she really wanted us, and like, Papa was the bad guy, and he was keeping her from having us? And then I kind of, you know, in middle school or high school, was like, I don’t know, how much did she want us?

THERAPIST: We need to stop for now. Have a good day.

CLIENT: Have a nice day.

THERAPIST: Thank you, take care.

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