TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I was wondering.

CLIENT: All right. (pause) I don't have anything to talk about today. (chuckles) (pause) [00:00:39]

I've been sleeping in a lot, because I get too anxious to get out of bed.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Um... I think it's getting better. But... yeah. Kind of a drawback sometimes, with places to be.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (chuckles) (pause) Did I tell you that I'm supposed to teach these two high school girls study skills?

THERAPIST: Yes. (chuckles)

CLIENT: (chuckles) Did I tell you I have no idea how that job happened? How I got that job? (chuckles) Yeah, I'm supposed to meet with them this afternoon. It's unclear to me what we're going to do. But I'll figure it out. [00:01:30]

THERAPIST: I used to do that, like in graduate school and stuff.

CLIENT: Tutor kids in high school?

THERAPIST: Kids with like ADD, and I worked with kids with ADD and learning disabilities, and some of my time at first in private practice as well. You want advice?

CLIENT: Yes. (chuckles) I really do. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I don't think these girls have ADD.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I think they are (pause) they're not dumb, they're not like the brightest kids I've ever met, but they're pretty smart. They are, I think they want good grades but they don't really see the connection between getting good grades and working for them, and they just have a lot else going on in their lives that's way more fun. Which, you know...

THERAPIST: Stunningly.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. I like them a lot.

THERAPIST: Well, that's good.

CLIENT: Yeah, they're very like, very (pause) very well-mannered, which in some ways is good and in some ways, like, makes it a little bit harder to get at what's actually going on. [00:02:45]

THERAPIST: Uh, so... their problems are, they're just, they're kind of, not supervised they don't see the connection between like they want to do well, but they don't exactly see the connection between sort of studying today and the good grades tomorrow kind of thing?

CLIENT: I think so, yeah. (pause) And you know, they're disorganized, but that's easy to fix.

THERAPIST: And how old are they?

CLIENT: One's fifteen and one's seventeen. So like the seventeen-year-old is going to be applying to colleges next year, so she kind of wants to be there, because she, you know, really wants to bring her grades up. And the fifteen-year-old doesn't want to be there. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But, like, I would never know if her dad didn't tell me that. Like, she's very... she's very polite about it.

THERAPIST: Right. And you see them together? Are they sisters?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. They seem to get along very well. [00:03:39]

THERAPIST: Um... (pause) I don't know. I'd present this, I would have each of them sort of set goals for how they want to do, like let the goals come from them about what they want their performance to be, and then sort of back into how much time it's going to take to get there, if they were like, "Okay, you want to get, you know, four B's and an A. All right, and in which subjects? Okay, so how much time is this actually going to really take?" You know, like, how are you going to have to do on the stuff coming up, if you want to do that well, how much studying do you think you're going to... You know, like, back them, like, have them set their goals, and then kind of back them into the amount of time they need to study working on their stuff, and then like, schedule it.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:04:44]

THERAPIST: And they won't follow the schedules.

CLIENT: Of course not.

THERAPIST: But it's more like, at least that way you have some kind of (pause) you know vaguely, kind of jagged like, you have some sort of goal post to sort of relate what they're doing to. In other words, like, then when they come back and ask, and they say, "Yeah, you know, I said I was going to study like three hours a week, and I studied like an hour." "Oh, okay. Well, like, what happened?" You know, and you can kind of get into what's getting into the way, "Well, I don't really care, because this other thing was more fun..." You know, like you kind of can...

CLIENT: Yeah. Thanks. I've talked with them...

THERAPIST: There are really lots of other ways to go, but...

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know, maybe so. Because I talked with them about, like, what their current goals are and what they want. (pause) But I haven't really made, kind of an explicit connection much between what they want and what I'm asking them to do. [00:05:49]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I wouldn't ask them to do anything.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I would just, like, relate it to what, like, "Well, if you want this, let's figure out what you actually need to do to get it."

CLIENT: Right. Thanks.

THERAPIST: Because you sort of want to keep the motivation in their court.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because they're fifteen and seventeen, you know. Good luck with that. (chuckles)

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

You sort of, like, support them in tracing the connection between (pause) you know, what they have for homework tonight and how they ultimately want to do.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And then, kind of, (pause) but in a very sort of, not an abstract way. Be very, like, "Okay, well, let's actually look at it. So, how do you want to do and what do you have coming up, and..." You know what I mean?

CLIENT: Absolutely. [00:06:51]

THERAPIST: Very sort of bottom up.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: One of the challenges is that I don't think they get any homework? Like, at all?

THERAPIST: Where are they in school?

CLIENT: Ah... in... I don't know.

THERAPIST: Is it a public school?

CLIENT: I think so.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And you know, I was saying, "Well, you know, you want to do well on these tests, like, you really need to start studying before the night before," and they're like, "Well, we don't know about the tests until the night before." I'm skeptical about that. (chuckles) I'm like, "Well, I'm going to ask your teachers." Because I'm pretty sure they're required to have some kind of schedule. I don't know, but...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's tough when you're not getting straight information from the kids.

CLIENT: But I can... their dad has said that... he's going to give me the password to, like, go and look on there, because they have everything online.

THERAPIST: Oh, they post the syllabi online? [00:07:58]

CLIENT: They post... yeah, they post the syllabus, and, like, all the homework and everything.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) I'm like, "That's possible!"

THERAPIST: That's very helpful, because there can be so many gaps.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Between what the teacher says and then either...

CLIENT: Yeah. I was such a bad student. Like, I was a really good student in some ways, but I was (pause) a terrible student. (chuckles) So, you know. I understand where they're coming from. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (pause) I'm sympathetic?

THERAPIST: Well, maybe. I mean, they may be, like... the behavior may be similar, but it sounds like they may... they may just not know, you know? They may just be more into having fun? In other words, like... (pause) I know because you've told me that you're sort of... your study habits weren't very good, especially at that age. [00:09:03]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: But I would guess you were pretty motivated.

CLIENT: Yeah, they seem to me to be sort of just resigned to not doing very well.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Like, they want to do well, but they kind of figure that they can't. And (pause) yeah. I was not really like that. (pause) Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) [00:10:37]

CLIENT: Yeah. I still don't prepare for class (chuckles) more than the day of the class.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause)

CLIENT: No, I'm usually doing the day before. Which I still much prefer.

THERAPIST: You mean, as compared to the day of?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah, I really like this, like... But I haven't, I haven't quite found my way with these girls.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Pulled it on me not twice now. (pause)

THERAPIST: Motivation, at least in my experience, motivation is a tough one in general. But I... that's once a week. [00:12:01]

In that, like, at least my experience, going like, once a week, you can't actually be doing the work with the kids, because you just don't have enough time, you can sort of like...

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, twice a week.

THERAPIST: Oh, twice a week? Oh, okay. Well, maybe.

CLIENT: Yeah, twice a week, for an hour and a half. So... yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you can do the work with them.

CLIENT: I've been to work on their math. Because they're in the same math class. (chuckles) Oh, God.

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: Blessedly, they're doing something that I actually know. (chuckles) But... it's a humbling experience, let's just put it that way.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (chuckles) (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I think they're going to thin out on counting. (pause) [00:12:59]

But yeah, it's like a (pause) it's like, there's time to do some of the work with them, but not time to do, like, very much of it?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, yeah. Still kind of working on how to use the time best.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because I don't want to just be talking at them with it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That's not conducive.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But I tend to talk to them too much. I kind of, like, get nervous and then talk a lot anyway.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause) [00:13:57]

I would guess there's probably a lot of work tutoring for study skills, there seems to be.

CLIENT: There's a lot of work what?

THERAPIST: Tutoring for study skills?

CLIENT: Yeah. Um, yeah.

THERAPIST: I've tried it with ed, and it's not quite clear who's supposed to be doing that, you know, as opposed to, like content. You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. Um, yeah. Study skills and SAT prep.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause)

CLIENT: So. (pause)

Anyhow, I feel like it's, if that's something I can figure out how to tackle well, like, that'll be really good for me when I'm teaching. Like, that's just good to know.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:15:06]

THERAPIST: I always thought too, that some of it is sort of teaching skills and just helping kids kind of think about that stuff. And a lot of it is if they like you, I think. You know? CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: You know, great idea, but if they don't like you for whatever reason, it just doesn't matter that much.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And if they do, then you can get away with a lot.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In other words, you can actively do things and they'll be open to it. (chuckles)

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. I don't think they dislike me.

THERAPIST: Well, that's good.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I think. (pause) I have students at St. Margaret's I really liked. I'm a fan. Not anymore, I think. (pause) But yeah, I worked a lot harder for the teachers I liked. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Go figure. (pause) [00:16:36]

I have no idea what I'm doing. (chuckles) Sometimes I do things more nervous than others.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause) [00:18:06]

CLIENT: I really want that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause)

How much do you charge an hour?

CLIENT: Um, like, $30 an hour. Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's not very much. Yeah, next time you should charge more.

CLIENT: Yeah. I figure I'll charge more once I feel like I'm better. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Charge more first. (chuckles)

CLIENT: Okay. (chuckles) Okay.

THERAPIST: Parents will also treat you differently if you charge more.

CLIENT: Interesting. (pause) Hm. Okay. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, you should probably charge twice that much. [00:19:09]

CLIENT: Wow.

THERAPIST: At least.

CLIENT: Wow. Yeah. I don't know if I can deal with that. But I hear you.

THERAPIST: I know, it's hard, yeah.

CLIENT: Absolutely, it just turns me off, though.

THERAPIST: It's very hard. (pause)

I remember I was working with this kid in tenth grade, like, the first kid I charged probably what I should be, and I remember sending a bill by e-mail, and anticipating that as soon as I pushed "send," I was going to get this furious e-mail back, like, "This isn't what we agreed on, how could you possibly be charging..." You know, which of course was what we agreed on and we had talked about, and she didn't bat an eye. Which I just... couldn't believe. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I was like this.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. Yeah. (pause) Okay. (pause) [00:20:50]

Yeah, it's an interesting world. Just, um... (pause) I don't know. I don't know. I feel like both with tutoring and with applications and, you know, spending all my time acting like I really know what I'm doing, and it feels like there's no way anyone is going to believe me. (chuckles) There's no way. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) [00:21:43]

CLIENT: I'm positive that the head of after school at all of these schools, you know, the person who's going to read my application if I'm lucky, knows for a fact that I don't know what I'm doing, but... (chuckles) (pause) Yeah, I mean, I'm sick of applying for jobs, but it's just not something I'm very good at. I mean, I'm very good in print. Like my writing. I can sell myself pretty well. But (pause) I always feel like there's no way they're going to believe me. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause) [00:23:06]

CLIENT: I remember, I had just started teaching at St. Margaret's, this was the year after I got out of college? I think I might have been 21 still. Maybe I was 22, I don't know. But a parent came up and introduced himself to me, and said, "I'm here to do the plan. So you just got out of college." I'm like, "Yep." (chuckles) Not much else to say.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Um, yeah. (pause) And then, like, a couple weeks in, the head of my department watched a class period, and at the end of the period she said, "You're doing really well, you're really on the right track. But you know, you can tell them to do things, right?" (chuckles) She's like, "You're asking them to do things. They're not going to do that."

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So... (pause) [00:25:13]

But I learned.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (pause) [00:26:54]

Are you a little unprepared here because you don't know what to talk about?

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yes. (chuckles) Yes. Yeah, I'm just feeling really nervous. I can't tell whether it's either I don't know what to talk about here or whether that's just because, you know, I kind of [inaudible] a later one.

THERAPIST: What are some, like, your... things are current for you, and thoughts about things, but that they don't sound sort of prepared enough, or you feel like they're not important enough to say?

CLIENT: Yeah, I feel like (pause) yeah, it's like, I'm thinking about things, but it's kind of a combination of things I've already said, but I just think again, and (pause) things that don't seem to be coherent enough to say out loud. (pause) [00:28:09]

I'm not thinking about "Friends." Do you see "Friends"? It's a great show. (chuckles) It's a show that I watched with James, and the ECT made me forget all of it, so, I've got to watch it again! (chuckles) Yeah. But it's one of those that like, sticks in your head. (pause)

THERAPIST: And I gather that's not important enough to talk about? Or...

CLIENT: Yes. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Could it be?

CLIENT: (chuckles) Um... [00:29:09]

THERAPIST: You really don't know where it's going to go.

CLIENT: No, you're right. I just...

THERAPIST: I imagine it feels to you like you probably give me certain standards of like, it's got to be something new, it's got to be something fairly coherent, it's got to be something that...

CLIENT: Is not TV?

THERAPIST: It doesn't matter, it isn't TV.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I'm... yes.

THERAPIST: And (pause) my impression is this has something to do with (pause) a feeling about the standards of what you can say, although I guess I keep telling you that you know I don't have those. [00:30:03]

CLIENT: Well, I know that. I just...

THERAPIST: But it feels kind of otherwise.

CLIENT: Yes. Yes. It's like I know it, but I don't want to test it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause)

I really got fed up with you.

CLIENT: You're angry? I know. A lot of it is just like, when you're thinking it's not sentences that you're thinking? I have a hard time getting sentences out of that sometimes. (pause) [00:31:07]

I really want to do well by these girls.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. Both. I don't want to be a failure. But also, like, I like them.

THERAPIST: You want to help them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. There's no reason why they shouldn't be doing well in school. You know, their parents are super supportive, as far as I can tell. I mean, I can't tell much, obviously, but like... (pause) You know. Their dad, we meet at, like, their dad's company. He has like, a little, like jet company or something. And so we meet in the conference room. And he'll like, come in and bring like, a little cup full of animal crackers, and be like, "Here you go." And then... (chuckles) He's just very sweet.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:32:11]

CLIENT: Um... (pause) yeah. Yeah. They're usually smiling, and... (pause) yeah, they should be able to do it. Just take care of that. (pause)

It's sort of amazing to me that I can't think of something to say and I talk so much all the time. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It's true.

CLIENT: You're nodding like it's amazing to you as well. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, just to know, I guess I'm nodding because (pause) yeah, it sort of speaks to the power of whatever's making you anxious here, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Rather than, like, me sort of in like a way just not being able to think of anything to say.

CLIENT: Hm. (pause) Yeah, I mean, usually... I feel more anxious today than I usually do. Usually when I just kind of drop out of the conversation, it doesn't feel like I'm anxious. It doesn't mean that much. (pause) [00:34:32]

Yeah, you say I don't know where it's going to go, and I sort of don't believe you. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Um... (pause) Yeah, but... (pause) Yeah. Yeah. It feels like I know where trivialities are going to go. It's just not that far.

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause) [00:35:33]

CLIENT: (chuckles) What? I'm constructing what you're going to say next in my head. (chuckles) Which is, "How do you know it's trivial?" (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (chuckles) (pause)

CLIENT: I'm trying.

THERAPIST: I know. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I work pretty hard. (pause) But... I work hard. [00:36:50]

THERAPIST: I think you might feel in situations where you're being sort of paid attention to or feel taken care of, that (pause) you almost can't do enough to sort of feel like you deserve that.

CLIENT: Yes. It's always a little baffling. (pause)

THERAPIST: But then the hard work may be, one way you could try to...

CLIENT: Deserve that?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, what else can I do? (pause) I don't just deserve that, period. Now. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're probably like that with your tutoring too. Like, they put their trust in you, they're treating you well, they're paying you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I want to do right by them. [00:38:10]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause) It's hard to do either of those things.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, that was (pause) honestly the thing that I, one of the things that I liked the most about teaching, is that (pause), you know, the first month of so is kind of up and down, you know, getting kind of into it. But by Thanksgiving, you know, I could tell that I deserved that. (pause) Yeah, that was really nice. [00:39:05]

I mean, it was I sort of felt like I was getting away with a lot, because that would be that just everyone, all of the administration, I can't remember exactly what it was, but they were just really, really overworked about something. And so that time after like, two weeks, when somebody sat in on my class was the only time that somebody sat in on my classes. (chuckles) Which was really not supposed to happen at all. Yeah, they were supposed to spend a lot more time making sure that I wasn't fucking up. But (pause) you know, I... (pause) I think it was sort of a case of, they could tell that whatever I was doing, it was working. So, they just said, "Well, we don't have to worry too much about Tanya." (chuckles) (pause) [00:40:12]

Yeah, this is the school that I've applied for an Aramaic teaching job. You know, it's that's what I really want. And there are a lot of things about that school that really bother me. Some of it is just stuff that goes on with independent schools, period. Like (pause) they're always going to be all snobs, like that's how it works. And I'm always going to feel like an outsider in some ways. [00:41:13]

And you know, with St. Margaret there's no, like, all girls, San Antonio thing that you've got. There are a lot of traditions that the feminist in me gets a little upset about. (chuckles) And the feminist in me is pretty large, so... (chuckles) But at the same I guess my point is, they really took care of me. As a student, but more so even as a teacher than when I was a student there. That's not something that comes along that much. I'd like to be there again. (pause) [00:42:14]

Yeah, part of me wishes that I hadn't left when I did. But I think, yeah, but then I'd be across the country from James, and I didn't want that. Yeah. Yeah, even in retrospect I don't think I'd want that. Being (pause) the time I spent from Ohio to Denver. That just sucked. It sucked so much. (pause)

I don't know if it would have been... weird looks. God, I've been in some weird places! (chuckles) It's so Catholic there! It's so Catholic! [00:43:27]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know what I mean. Like, I'm Episcopalian, I can sort of fake it. You know, I know what people are talking about when they mention, like, sacramentality. But it's another world.

THERAPIST: Yeah. We should stop.

CLIENT: Yeah. Thank you.

THERAPIST: All right.

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