TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: A little hot in here?
CLIENT: A little bit. I'm also wearing a sweatshirt.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 00:12)
CLIENT: Hey.
THERAPIST: Hey.
CLIENT: So I was pretty anxious about therapy, which is unfortunate because, you know, this isn't something I want to be anxious about. Then I got in here and it's like, I don't know, it just is a safe place at this point, so it's like being here and I kind of calmed down. It was like, "Okay, it's going to be fine." (Pause) But, yeah, I was anxious.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 01:01)
CLIENT: You know, about everything. (inaudible 01:10) (Laughter) About at least a year ago, probably, maybe two years, I told James's advisor's wife that I would read and mark up and edit a novel that I think her sister had written. Either she or her sister had written, because she sent me a copy of it, and then I forget to do it. And I forgot about it entirely until a few days ago. Then I remembered, and been feeling horrible about it ever since.
THERAPIST: When did she send it?
CLIENT: A long time ago. (Laughter) Like, at least a year ago.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 01:58)
CLIENT: So, I don't know. I mean, I've got time to do it now. And I sort of am in a position where there's less to do during the day, and there's less that I can do in terms of, like, looking for tutoring jobs and looking for teaching jobs, than there is time in the day. So it would be good to do, but I don't know if it would be useful to her at this point. I'm a little embarrassed to get in contact with her (inaudible 02:38). It's a romance novel. This all started because I was at, like, a party at Kevin's house and I was talking with his wife about really liking romance novels. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: You see where that got you? (Laughter)
CLIENT: Yep. Yeah, I do actually. I can read about two in a row, and then I want to shoot myself. (Laughter) They're really fun, up until that point. I've been reading Proust (sp?) for the last few days. It's a lot better than I expected it to be, actually. Or rather, a lot more fun. You know, I always fall for this, like, people talk about great writers and you expect them to be really boring. It's like, no, people like (laughter) these people for a reason. But yeah, it's really funny.
THERAPIST: I can't help it. I remember, like, I had a bit of experience with that when I was in middle school and we were reading a play. This is, like, the first time (inaudible 03:57). And at the beginning of the play, there's, like, sexual innuendos, [if you remember] (ph), at the beginning of the (inaudible 04:13) and one of the kids in the class, one of the boys, started laughing. And (inaudible 04:17). The teacher said, "What's so funny?" and he wouldn't say. And, you know, (laughter) he knew that he got it, but he didn't know the author meant it, you know. (Laughter) So the teacher kind of figured that out and was like, "No, he meant it," you know. Females do that. (inaudible 04:37) and they're doing it on stage. And, like, there was sort of this moment like, "Oh." (Laughter)
CLIENT: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. They're sort of fun.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: No, I think I had kind of the same experience with that exact same scene.
THERAPIST: Oh, really?
CLIENT: Yeah. It was like, "Oh." (inaudible 05:17)
(Silence)
CLIENT: Yeah, I love that.
(Silence)
CLIENT: I just remember, we read a play in fourth grade. I think we read, like, an abridged version. And then we watched the (pause) So it's really, really good but, like, there's kind of lot of nudity. (Laughter) I just remember the teacher, like, trying to kind of, like, fast forward through the nude scenes. But, like, the actress, like, her mad scene, she's nude in it. And so, it was like, we kind of have to watch that. And, like, you don't see very much. I think she was just like, "Oh, whatever. It's fine." (Laughter)
(Silence)
CLIENT: James told me yesterday he thinks I should be a writer. Just sort of like, "Okay. [In this field] (ph) that it's even harder to get [paid in] (ph)." (laughter) I wanted to be a writer for a long time. I think I decided in college that I was just a better reader than a writer and just kind of stopped.
THERAPIST: This is writing fiction or...
CLIENT: Yeah. I read a lot of plays in college. (inaudible 08:14) I think I just impressed James because I've been able to guess the storyline in every Friends episode. (Laughter) It was like, "Well, this is the only person that I can be, structurally." (Laughter)
(Silence)
CLIENT: Yu know, it's one of those things that part of me really wants, and I feel like I back off because it's too scary or too hard.
(Silence)
CLIENT: There is a book, by John Irving, I think.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: There is a character in it who I read this book, like, 15 years ago. Not 15 years ago, but a long time ago.
THERAPIST: I never read it.
CLIENT: Okay. (Laughter) Well, that's good. You know, that's John Irving. Mostly, it's just really weird. (Laughter) But good. The lead character, who's one of there's, like, this family, and one of the siblings, she's a dwarf. Like, she's very short. And she wants to be a writer. And so, she'll just, like, sit in her room all day and type. And they say, "What are you doing?" And she says, "I'm trying to grow." (Laughter) I think she kills herself at the end of the book. And she's, like, written a couple of novels and neither of them have been successful or really any good. And what the narrator says is that he thinks in the end maybe she was just a really great reader, and not a writer.
That's one of those things that's kind of gotten stuck into my head, but I know they're not the same thing.
(Silence)
CLIENT: [So I wish James hadn't said that to me] (ph). Something else to worry myself about. On the other hand, you know, something different to worry about. (Pause) I forgot to call my brother back. He called a couple of days ago.
(Silence)
CLIENT: I can't just say, "Oh, well, that's too bad. I'll do that, at this time." (Pause) I just have to beat myself up about it.
(Silence)
CLIENT: I think the problem with things mostly coming easily for me [is things that] (ph) it's really, really hard for me to actually work at things or to think that just because something's not easy doesn't mean it's not something I should do.
THERAPIST: That's odd.
CLIENT: I don't know whether I had enough negatives or too many in there, but...
THERAPIST: (inaudible 14:40) (Laughter) You should be doing something that's hard.
CLIENT: Well, it's more like if something is hard, I think, "Well, I guess I'm just not meant to be doing this."
THERAPIST: Oh, okay. (inaudible 14:52)
CLIENT: Yeah. (Long pause) You know, I'm a decent singer and a decent actor. And I never really had much training in either. More in acting than singing. But then, like, eventually you get to the point where, like, you have to have training if you're going to be professional at it. And I kind of say, "Well, I guess I'm just not that good of an actor." I just stop doing it. That, and [the department] (ph). I mean, the reason why I didn't have much training was because the acting department was terrible. Like, there wasn't any training to be had at Texas A&M. But, you know, so I just stopped.
You know, I've always thought I was just not good at math and science, and working with these girls on algebra, I'm like, "Oh, no. you're pretty good at it. You're just not that good at it." (Laughter) Like, I would just have to actually work, and that would be hard.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: You know, I'd much rather take another class. (Laughter) I would have. (Long pause) I'm not sure why I'm thinking about these things right now.
(Silence)
THERAPIST: Well, from what I've seen here, I would imagine it can be hard for you to do things that are hard work because when you're struggling, it gets very scary.
CLIENT: Maybe.
THERAPIST: You have sort of moments where you're feeling as though (ph) you're not good at it or come up against something you just can't do or can't do right away, it's like touching a hot stove.
CLIENT: Yeah. You know, [a language is every exception] (ph), and that's mostly because I've done it enough that I've learned that it comes eventually.
THERAPIST: I see. Like (inaudible 18:41).
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. You know, when I'm [with a new language] (ph), I know that I'm going to get it. And I know that it's going to go away again in a year, but I also know that I can relearn it. Like, I know that it'll come back, and that I just have to (inaudible 19:01). (Pause) When I look at a page and I don't know how to read it, it's less (ph) like I am a failure as a human being.
(Silence)
CLIENT: I burned myself on accident yesterday.
THERAPIST: An accident?
CLIENT: Yeah (ph). (Sighs) That's disappointing. I was disappointed in myself.
THERAPIST: Well, what's going on?
CLIENT: I don't remember what exactly I was upset about at that moment, but (pause) I think it's a safe bet to say that I was anxious about something. I've been (pause) worried about money. Worried about I'm (ph) not taking care of James. And worried that I'm not going to find a job. I'm worried about tutoring. (Pause) (inaudible 21:45) (Pause) I'm just feeling like I can't work with myself. Like I don't want to be in my body, that I can't stand being the person that I am. (Pause) And in some ways, knowing (pause) in some ways kind of knowing how that works and, like, why I feel that way, it's very helpful. And in some ways, it's really not, because I feel like, well, if I (pause) if I know that (pause) feeling terrible about myself and, you know, wanting to hurt myself and wanting to kill myself is partly something that I do because it's easier than actually dealing with things, then I shouldn't fall for that. Then I should just be able to actually deal with things. And it doesn't really work like that. It still (pause) I can't I've not been able to keep myself from (pause) feeling bad just because I can (ph).
THERAPIST: (inaudible 23:41) the point in my mind that identifying that you want to hurt or kill yourself because other things are so overwhelming you can't bear to think about them. Like, in my mind, the point (inaudible 23:57) that should have somehow magically made you able to think about them or, you know. This doesn't work through the mechanism of, like -
CLIENT: If I understand it, it'll go away? That's good to know, because it sure doesn't. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: You know, there are occasions with much more minor things where, you know, if you're avoiding a difficult conversation with somebody that's, like, you know, a six on the anxiety scale. And you look at it, and you're like, "Okay. Fuck. [That's why] (ph) I'm anxious." And then, you know, sometimes then you can kind of hold your breath and do it, but that's not what we're talking about...
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: I think to meet, like, (inaudible 24:58) characteristic that you would imagine that's how I thought this worked, that, like, once you identified how impossible and how overwhelming all these things are. So much so that you rather be dead than deal with them, then (laughter) by seeing that, you should really be able to buck (ph) up (laughter) and do them.
CLIENT: Yeah, okay. (laughter)
THERAPIST: You know, you're so often up against, in this case, like, (inaudible 25:44) (pause) impossible demands.
CLIENT: They're not impossible for other people.
THERAPIST: That one is.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: You know what I mean?
CLIENT: Yeah. No, I do. Thanks (ph).
THERAPIST: Yeah (ph).
(Silence)
CLIENT: You're not going to answer this, but so if understanding how it works isn't [just saying that] (ph), "Oh, help me get out of this," what is? (Laughter) Is that a "you're right, I'm not going to answer that" face? (Laughter)
THERAPIST: No, no, I'm smiling because (inaudible 26:51). (Laughter) I don't mind. I can answer that. The first part of the answer is, whatever it is, it's something that makes those things easier to do or harder.
CLIENT: Okay.
(Silence)
THERAPIST: Let's see. Well (pause), so this is probably not a bad example. (Long pause) Okay, so (pause) I may get some of this wrong, but it's sort of, like, I'm going to bend (ph) around to try to answer your question a little bit (ph). I imagine part of why you were nervous to come today is because of burning yourself on the stove yesterday and mentioning it might come up. (inaudible 28:49) have you been doing that regularly?
CLIENT: It wasn't the first time. (Pause) Yeah.
THERAPIST: Okay, so let me back off of that, and I will ask you more about that (inaudible 29:09). One of the things, then should we talk about that now?
CLIENT: No, it's okay. I mean, I really don't want to talk about it. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: Okay. All right.
CLIENT: If we're going to need to talk about it.
THERAPIST: No, we have time. (inaudible 29:30) but we will have time. I think one of the things that (inaudible 29:38) the kind of thing you were just saying. Having an idea, like, imaging that I think that by having some insight, like you described, you should be able to act differently. And so you kind of walk around with that (inaudible 30:03) on your head, which it is sort of a typical (inaudible 30:07) that the other person is making an impossible demand of you. And when it's overwhelming, you're trapped. You know, it totally traps you, you know, in that (inaudible 30:19) And that's (inaudible 30:20) how this works, and you can't do it, you're kind of screwed.
I mean, like, either you say it doesn't work and then there's losing me or the possibility of help of this kind. Or you're like, "Well, it's your fault," and then there's something the matter with you. And that just makes you feel worse and more like you'd rather kill yourself anyway. But then, you know, we talk about it and it turns out that's actually not what I expect or how I think about this.
CLIENT: Well, [to be clear] (ph), I pretty much already know. I do know that. I just (inaudible 31:09).
THERAPIST: Sure. And, like, you know, then it turns out, you know, you're not such an impossible situation anymore. At least in terms of this kind, you know, there's not at least this one impossible demand on you. It's sort of, like, chipping away a little at the sort of (pause) impossibility. Impossibility. (inaudible 31:46). Yeah.
CLIENT: Somewhere (ph) like I can't remember what I was you know, in a week or sorry. A week or two ago, I kind of come in and just, like, fall apart and, you know, say everything is horrible, and you kind of very gently say, "You're sort of catastrophizing here. You're sort of making things into this big, global thing, and it's not this big, global thing." Is that what you're talking about?
THERAPIST: That would be another instance, yeah, of (pause) yeah, that one, it's a little complicated, in a way, to me. But yeah, sure, something like that. I mean, I think it's complicated because I think there's a way you're trying to convince both of us that things are that bad.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: And probably for some important reasons, but I think, I guess basically, it works fine as an example in that you felt relief, I think, when I said, you know, it's not like that, more so than you felt threatened by that.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, there are other sort of ways or aspects to how this works, but that's fine, I think. Sure. I mean, there's something a little more schematic (ph) about it, but there are sort of emotional things that keep these sorts of, you know, fantasies in play. So one, I think, is just recognizing those fantasies in the first place and not necessarily the way things are in the world. And then another is dealing with the sort of feeling bitter (ph) being avoided or [voided off] (ph) through their use.
CLIENT: I see. Thank you.
THERAPIST: Sure. (Pause) So, yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. So I told, you know, myself and other people that I wasn't going to hurt myself anymore. And (pause) I've been doing, like, over time rationalizing. You know, sort of saying, "Well, it doesn't leave a mark. It's not really hurting myself, right?" (Sighs)
THERAPIST: What have you been doing?
CLIENT: Like, pinching myself and digging my nails into my palms. And (pause) I burnt myself accidentally a while back, and it occurred to me that burn scars go away. You know, and I still have a lot of scars on my legs (inaudible 35:48). James's family takes a vacation to the beach every summer. It's unclear what's going to happen there. You know, it's not like I mean, the thyroid (ph) scar (inaudible 36:12) I got stitches, and now you can't even see it. (inaudible 36:16) (Long pause) I am glad to be talking about with you about it now because I haven't been doing it very often, but it's getting more frequent, and it's getting worse (ph).
THERAPIST: You mean how much you're burning yourself (inaudible 37:06)? Like, what are you doing? Are you touching your arm against the stove?
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (inaudible 37:19)
THERAPIST: Against the stove itself or against a hot pot or...
CLIENT: Against, like, a hot pot or, you know, like an electric kettle that gets really hot. Yeah. And, like, the water in our apartment gets really, really hot. You know, like when I wash my hands sometimes, I do that. (Long pause) But it doesn't help very much. But it helps enough for me to (inaudible 38:08).
THERAPIST: [Do you have] (ph) second-degree burns from it? Like, blisters?
CLIENT: I have, like, marks, but no blisters.
THERAPIST: And how often now? Like, everyday?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: [Have you done it today] (ph)?
CLIENT: I did it a couple of times yesterday.
THERAPIST: Helps with the anxiety?
CLIENT: Again (ph), it helped some, but it's not very much. (inaudible 39:10) I feel like I remember it helping more (inaudible 39:25). Which I guess is good. (inaudible 39:34)
THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess one thing that strikes me too is that so much more of this now is about anxiety, rather than more kind of depressive.
CLIENT: Yeah. It's starting to kind of blend together. Like, I get anxious, and then that turns into thinking terrible things about myself, as opposed to being sad, and that turning into thinking terrible things about myself. But, yeah. Yeah.
THERAPIST: Does it seem like this is what worried you about coming in, that this was maybe going to come up today? (inaudible 40:34)
CLIENT: No. I was really just worried about having to talk.
THERAPIST: [Really, were you] (ph)?
CLIENT: You know -
THERAPIST: It's been incredibly hard.
CLIENT: Yeah. Feeling like I'm failing you (ph).
THERAPIST: This won't help out much, but you're not.
CLIENT: Thanks. I know. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: Okay.
(Silence)
THERAPIST: I guess, I mean, the point is that you feel (inaudible 41:36) or that you will.
CLIENT: Yeah.
(Silence)
CLIENT: Watching TV helps. (Pause) It's starting to not be not distracting enough.
THERAPIST: [Are things getting worse] (ph)? [I didn't think that it was] (ph).
CLIENT: It feels like things [are getting worse] (ph), yeah.
THERAPIST: Is that part of does that contribute to the feeling of failing me?
CLIENT: I don't know. I don't know. (inaudible 43:05) something to do. (Laughter) (inaudible 43:20)
THERAPIST: I'm not entirely sure what that means. Are you?
CLIENT: Yeah, it's not like you don't have (inaudible 43:28). (Laughter) I don't know.
THERAPIST: [It's probably] (ph) that it will seem clearer what you should talk about.
CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like it will be easier for me, but (pause) I mean you know, so yesterday, I really wasn't doing very well, but when I was here, I wasn't thinking about that at all, and it was like it was completely gone in some ways. So it's like I didn't have anything to talk about anyway.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (Laughter) So...
(Silence)
THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, apparently, there's something that's much scarier than talking about (pause) how things are going well or how you're feeling. You're referring to being anxious. That's clear, but -
CLIENT: I think that's sort of a, like, short hand in some ways. I say I'm anxious, but that doesn't really say very much.
THERAPIST: Convey.
CLIENT: But [I also know that I should know how to describe it, other than just to say] (ph) I'm anxious.
THERAPIST: We should stop, for now.
(Background noise)
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