TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Good morning.
CLIENT: Good morning.
THERAPIST: It is still morning (inaudible 00:10).
CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible 00:12)
THERAPIST: Okay, all right. I just turned the heat down. [Sorry it's so hot] (ph).
CLIENT: That's okay, thanks. Thanks for talking to me on Friday.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: Yeah, I think not going to Delaware was the right thing to do. (Pause) Yeah, I feel a lot more, like, relaxed and rested at the end of the weekend.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 00:43)
CLIENT: (Laughter) I don't even know how to describe what we (laughter) (inaudible 00:52). Yeah. (Pause) That was scary though. (Pause) But it just, like, got really far out of my control really fast, and I wasn't really expecting it. I sort of just, you know, I've been thinking about it all weekend. (inaudible 01:36) I published this post about the ECT (ph) that I'm working on, which I think was really good. [You know] (ph), my friends have been really nice about it, which makes me feel kind of awkward and weird, but whatever. (Laughter) I feel that way whenever everybody says I wrote something well (ph). But yeah. I feel like I articulated what I wanted to say (inaudible 02:28). That was good. And for me, like, (pause) working through problems in writing is something and (ph), like, using writing as a way to talk about them is (pause) sort of feels like a big piece of myself that I'm getting back.
THERAPIST: Good. That's a big deal.
CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) You know, it was the sort of unintended effect but, like, now, like, people talk to me about it (inaudible 03:29) I'm over that. (Laughter) Which I'm not, actually. That's not really what I say, but yeah. It's sort of like I (ph) take two steps back to what I was thinking about a week ago when I wrote it and, like, had (ph) the conversation (ph) from there. You know, and it's nice to feel like I can write again. Like, write well. (Pause) Yeah. I'm good.
THERAPIST: Good.
CLIENT: I'm worried about Jason. (Pause) I'll probably call him today, see how he's doing. See what I can do. Yeah. I feel like I don't know Jason very well. (Pause) We seem to just work (ph) really differently. He and Amanda are really close, and Amanda and I are really close. Jason and I aren't (ph) really close. Yeah (inaudible 05:15) polite to each other, which is weird. (Pause) Jason and Gary and I Gary is Angela's (sp?) son. Angela was my dad's girlfriend for, like, [ten years] (ph). Gary was, I think, a year older than Jason, maybe two years older. Maybe, like, a year-and-a-half. So we ended up playing together a lot, like, after Amanda went off to boarding school [before I did] (ph).
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: (inaudible 06:04) when we were younger. It was, like, a little weird because, yeah, I was a lot older than they were at that age, but -
THERAPIST: You're six years older than Jason?
CLIENT: I'm five years older than Jason. But sort of, like, well (ph), there was nobody else to play with. There was, like, really nobody else for me to play with. Gary and Jason were, like, best friends, which is good, you know, in the kind of (inaudible 06:37) sort of way. (inaudible 06:37) (Pause) It was interesting slash, I'm sure, tough for them because, like, Angela's style of child rearing was very different than my dad's. So I think I mean, I suspect one of the you could just really see how their relationship was, like my dad's and Angela's was, like, very close in some ways but they didn't really want to, like, meld (ph) their two lives. Or, like, Angela didn't want to meld (ph) her life with my dad's. It was very clearly, like, "You raise your kids my way, and I'll raise my kids my way." Which was, I think, (inaudible 07:30) Gary was pretty spoiled. And it's hard for me to tell whether he was, like, actually spoiled or just, like, (inaudible 07:38) my dad. (Laughter) I always felt like he was actually -
THERAPIST: The thought crossed my mind (inaudible 07:45).
CLIENT: (Laughter) Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I just don't know. I don't know. The last time I talked to Gary was, like, five years ago. He's a pretty great guy.
THERAPIST: Yeah?
CLIENT: Yeah, he grew up well.
THERAPIST: Oh, [that's cool] (ph).
CLIENT: He, like, decided not to go to college right after high school because he wanted to he was in a band. And so I think he's, yeah, doing (ph) a lot of music, and then did a bunch of community college classes and, like, got an associate's degree. In Texas Lakes (ph), there's a where the public university is, if you, like, get a community college degree, you'll get automatic admission to one of the public universities, so he's going to UNC, which is good.
THERAPIST: Oh, that's good.
CLIENT: It's good for Texas because, like, (inaudible 09:04) actually really good public universities. I think he'll do good.
(Silence)
CLIENT: I worry about Jason. (Pause) [You know] (ph), it's really hard for me to let him do things his way and not feel like, "No, living on a boat is a really terrible idea (laughter) for what you want to do after college." (Laughter) Yeah.
(Silence)
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, you would think out of three kids, like, one of us would be at all practical, but nope. (Laughter) Not at all. The guys are, like, with (inaudible 10:52). Like, somebody usually, like, takes the role of the pragmatic one, right?
THERAPIST: (inaudible 10:58)
CLIENT: Maybe. I would expect that anyway. I don't know.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 11:02)
(Silence)
CLIENT: [I sort of] (ph) (pause) feel like I don't know how, so I get anxious about, like, putting myself back in communities that I used to be part of. Like, how do I go back to a family vacation reunion, whatever, and be part of it? How do I be part of my church? (Pause) I finally e-mailed Kirsten, my roommate for the first couple of years I lived here. So I haven't talked to her in, like, at least six months. Basically, I sort of forgot she existed. We're sort of frenemies anyway. Like, it's -
THERAPIST: Oh, really?
CLIENT: It's [kind of] (ph) a fraught (ph) relationship, in some ways. Maybe more on my end than on hers. But if it's on my end, I'm sure it's on hers. In some ways, like, she's too much like me. She's like a version of the things in myself that I don't really want to be anymore or, like, that what she [seems to be] (ph). But, like, thinking about somebody as a version of yourself that you don't want to be anymore kind of dismisses (inaudible 13:30). (Laughter) It was always a struggle to, like, (pause) actually talk to her.
She tends to be (pause) pretty needy, pretty sensitive. Not very good at confrontation. Not very good at saying what she needs. Again, like, a version of myself, like I don't know how well I'm actually like, this is the way I feel about her more than what she actually is. (Pause) So, like, sometimes she would just (pause) really drive me insane, and sometimes she would be, like, a great, great friend. (Pause) It's sort of the same where, like, when I was the only person asking for things or, like, saying what I wanted, I think both of us sort of felt like I was being really pushy or, like, I was the spoiled one or something. But I also was like, "No, it's not good (laughter) to not ask for what you want." (Laughter) Like, I don't I've been there. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So I don't know. Anyway, I've kind of been, like, thinking about her. Like, "Oh, that person still exists." I feel sort of bad about not contacting her (inaudible 15:22), then decided I wasn't going to feel bad about that. But so we (ph) the place we lived mailed me a check for, like, 15 dollars. It was, like, the one percent interest on our security deposit. So it was, like, 15 dollars that was, like, equally split between the two of us. So I finally e-mailed her and said, you know, "I'm sorry that I haven't been in touch. It's really not you. I just dropped of the earth, you know, was depressed. Let's go get a drink whenever you're done (inaudible 16:06)." And so she hasn't e-mailed back, [and so that's] (ph) more or less the story, or end of the story. It's been, like, a week-and-a-half since (ph). And I really have no idea how to interpret that. Like, yeah. I don't know whether she's angry at me. I don't know whether she just didn't get the e-mail. I don't know whether she's been, you know, [first grading] (ph) (inaudible 16:41) TAing (ph) for, and then going on vacation. I don't know. As with James, I feel like (pause) like, start to feel guilty about not having been a good friend the last however long. And then, I just say, "You know, I did the best I could," which wasn't very good.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 17:32)
CLIENT: Yeah.
(Silence)
CLIENT: It's much easier to let myself off the hook for (ph) past things and present things. You know, I can sort of see how (inaudible 18:44) this winter but, like, not going to Jason's not-graduation doesn't feel like doing the best I could.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: I feel like we should have made it work. (Pause) But, I mean, you were right. (inaudible 19:13) a good fix for that. It wasn't a good thing to do because, like, James really did not want to go. I didn't really realize how much he didn't want to go until (ph), like, the end of that conversation. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: The end of ?
CLIENT: Of his and my conversation, like, right before I called you.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Yeah.
(Silence)
CLIENT: (inaudible 20:08) we're supposed to go visit some friends in Delaware, the week after next in, like, basically, the next town over. In Dover (ph), so [I don't know] (ph). I feel bad about that now (ph). We can go visit friends, but not family. Presumably, the car will be fixed, which makes things easier. (Laughter) Having a car.
THERAPIST: I know (ph).
(Silence)
CLIENT: (inaudible 21:13), like, (laughter) I wonder how Chad is going to find a thread (ph) here. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: Now you're making this difficult for me too. (Laughter) That's bad. (Laughter)
CLIENT: I have this unconscious game in my head with what's Chad going to say next. You know, [like you do] (ph).
THERAPIST: Well, like what?
CLIENT: Well, it's fun, because I can never tell. (Laughter) Like, I don't win, ever. (Laughter) (Pause) [I think it's fun] (ph).
THERAPIST: (inaudible 22:40)
CLIENT: Yeah, I pretend it's fun.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 22:56) disturbing.
CLIENT: I feel like I've gotten used to it. Does that make sense? Like, (pause) you know, it's less scary than it would be with something else. You know, you're just (pause) you're just in the category of people that I don't predict very well. (Pause) Which, actually, yeah, [when I come to think of it] (ph), there's other people in that category or people that I'm scared of. (Pause) Yeah, mostly (pause), you know, mostly I don't feel too bothered by it. But if I weren't bothered by it, why would I constantly be trying to predict what you were going to say?
THERAPIST: Right. And I think, also, (pause), in a way, like, treading kind of lightly, I don't think you, like, consciously make a decision to do that.
CLIENT: To tread lightly?
THERAPIST: Yeah. I kind of think you do that in sort of -
CLIENT: Can you give an example?
THERAPIST: (inaudible 24:37) Getting to something that's bothering you, and sort of sometimes jokingly alluding to how it's bothering you, and then kind of backing off into something else. Like, kind of putting your toe in, in a way, but, like, as if tipping your toe in the water or, like, sort of treading carefully around the way something upset you. And, you know, it seems wary.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I mean -
CLIENT: To play devil's advocate, you could also say that, like, I trust you to pick up on that. Like, I know you're not going to ignore it, but not (inaudible 25:26).
THERAPIST: (inaudible 25:37) you feel like you don't have to (inaudible 25:41) because (inaudible 25:46).
CLIENT: Yeah.
(Silence)
THERAPIST: (inaudible 26:22)
(Silence)
CLIENT: It's also, like, (pause) I was actually going to (inaudible 26:48) math in my head, and -
THERAPIST: Sure, whatever you like.
CLIENT: (Laughter) I don't like change. (Pause) I don't know. I think I'm not sure how this plays into, like, my relationship with you, but I feel like there's a real comfort for me in trying to figure out how you do what you do. Like, trying to figure out your craft. So I think, you know, what's Chad going to say next?
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: It's also partly, like, (pause), you know, you kind of have this "about to say something" look, and I don't know whether its' going to be hurtful or comforting or frightening or whatever. And so, trying to, like, figure out how you're working.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: It's (ph) like a reassuring thing for me. Yeah, or like, I don't know, maybe like a distraction of, like, here's this problem that I can work on (inaudible 28:12).
THERAPIST: [What it feels like] (ph).
CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughter) (Pause) Candace says she felt, you know she replied to my blog post, and she talked about (pause) actually, (inaudible 29:07). But she talked about, like, being she just heard something that was going on with me, and it was, you know, scary. And it just seemed she was really upset by it. And her class, the class that she was teaching, had noticed that she was upset, and she sort of tried to, like, make a lesson out of it, and then she just told them she was just really overwhelmed by how unfair things were. And she couldn't make a lesson out of that.
THERAPIST: What does she teach?
CLIENT: She teaches theology.
THERAPIST: Okay. Undergraduate (ph) students?
CLIENT: No, to high school students.
THERAPIST: Oh, okay.
CLIENT: Yeah. She's, I think, in a she's going to apply for a PhD program in the fall. But one of the big concerns for her is the remoteness of a lot of academic theology. So, like, the actual faithful. And so, I think figuring out how to (pause) figuring out how to have theology be something that everybody does, that's, like, for everybody, as a project for her first her (inaudible 30:32).
But so, (pause) I had a point. I'm trying to it was kind of (inaudible 30:50). So I think (pause), yeah, just that things aren't fair, and they suck, and just have to come to terms with it. But how do you do that? You know, in a lot of ways, that's sort of why I was writing. I was writing about the ECT (ph), and I (pause) it wasn't so much that I was trying to make sense of it as trying to explain the ways in which it didn't make sense. (inaudible 31:36) having done that, I'm a lot more okay with it not making sense.
(Silence)
CLIENT: I wanted that to be connected to talking about Jason earlier, but I don't remember how. I guess I don't know if this is actually what I want to say, but I feel like that's what I'm doing here. So...
THERAPIST: Sorry, which that?
CLIENT: Oh, the trying to being okay with things not being fair or (ph) making sense.
THERAPIST: I see.
(Silence)
CLIENT: Which I feel like is sort of at least parallel to (pause) trying to be okay with the fact that, like, I can't predict what you're going to say next. Yeah. (Pause) And (ph) feeling like, at some point, it stops being so scary, ideally (ph).
(Silence)
THERAPIST: (inaudible 34:05) two aspects of unfairness and unpredictability that (pause) make them dangerous (inaudible 34:26). One is (pause), you know, just how that makes me dangerous. [You can get hurt] (ph) when you don't expect it or (inaudible 34:40) being blindsided, I guess. And the other is (pause) you then have reactions to it. Like, you feel things in response to that. It's also, (inaudible 35:10) very scary.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 35:18) being hurt and feel hurt or disappointed or angry.
CLIENT: Yeah, and then I have to deal with how to react.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (inaudible 35:30) perfectly (ph). (Laughter)
THERAPIST: (inaudible 35:33) (Laughter) But now that you mention it, (inaudible 35:39) exactly right. (Laughter) (inaudible 35:46) (Pause) (inaudible 36:03) you can't have control of or predict what's going to happen to you or what you're going to do (inaudible 36:11) necessarily perfect (ph) control of your actions (inaudible 36:14).
CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) You know, that's a little harder, in some ways.
(Silence)
CLIENT: I was talking with James the other night about what I said to you a while back, which is I'm (ph) very good at pretending to be spontaneous. So, you know, we were, like, having a conversation. He was like, "Was that spontaneous?" And I was like, "No." (Laughter) Yeah.
(Silence)
CLIENT: It sort of feels like the things I say and do never go away. So if I say something wrong or do something wrong, like, that's always go be there. I don't have a good mechanism to (inaudible 38:00).
(Silence)
THERAPIST: I guess one of the reasons (inaudible 39:12).
CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) Most of the time, I don't really notice that I'm being so carefully. Like, that's the thing. I don't (pause) I can't tell how careful I'm being, until I stop, and then I only notice that when it blows up in my face. And so there's not really (ph) much incentive not to be so careful. (Laughter)
(Silence)
THERAPIST: [Well, I mean] (ph), there's indirectly, like when you sort of talk about the (pause) (inaudible 40:12) another term. About, like, [tragic comic] (ph), like, effort to sort of figure out what I'm going to say.
CLIENT: Tragic comic (ph)?
THERAPIST: Yeah (inaudible 40:26).
CLIENT: Yeah, I guess so. (Laughter) (Pause) Sorry, what was that? (inaudible 40:39)
THERAPIST: The whole point, yeah, that I god (ph), I'm scared by the word (ph). I think that's also a way you're being very careful. It's not sort of controlling what you say, but I think it's sort of the same ballgame, in (ph) being careful of what I say.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: There's a similar kind of vigilance.
CLIENT: I don't even know how it would stop (ph). You know, I (pause) I do work like, I don't know how obvious it is, but, like, I work pretty hard to say what I'm thinking, what I'm thinking in here.
THERAPIST: That is also -
CLIENT: And -
THERAPIST: Absolutely (ph).
CLIENT: That I'm not very good at it (laughter) at all. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: [I don't know about that] (ph).
CLIENT: I'm working on it. (Laughter) I'm getting there. Sorry, you can talk. (Laughter)
THERAPIST: No, no, no. No, it's okay. This is a lot of your struggle here.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: (inaudible 42:02) too, wanting to put out there what you happen to be thinking or feeling, and having to kind of struggle against wanting (ph) to be really careful (inaudible 42:15).
CLIENT: But I sort of wonder, like, if this is this hard for me here, where, like, it's sort of the point or, like, that's one of the big tools, where it's, like, very clearly set out that this is okay and this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, what I'm explicitly supposed to be doing. Like, how am I how do I do that with anybody else? (Laughter)
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Should I do that with anybody else? (Laughter) I'm sort of thinking no right now.
THERAPIST: Well, that's your call. (Laughter) Except (ph), you know, you don't really give yourself enough credit. It seems to me that, for example, with James, sometimes you're much more so (ph) that way than you used to be. For example.
CLIENT: Thanks. I didn't notice. Thanks (ph).
THERAPIST: Or yeah, I think that's true. (inaudible 43:29) mediated by your being a lot clear of how you're reacting to things in conversation with him, I think. He said this (inaudible 43:36) and I said this. And it was, you know.
CLIENT: Yeah. That feels less like I just feel bad and there's this big cloud on me. And more like I can tell what's doing what.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible 43:58) (Pause)
(Silence)
CLIENT: If (ph) I think about writing as a parallel, I feel like one of the things that I'm scared about is that, like, if I don't think very hard before I say something, I won't be able to take it back and replace it with what I actually mean. Which is not true. Like, I can say, "No, what I actually meant was this." But, you know, I think that. But at the same time, (pause) I feel like if I spend too much time analyzing it before I say it, then I won't say what I mean anyway. Yeah. And the analogy to writing, which I didn't actually say, was that most of the time, the things that are really good are from the first draft. And then there's, like, the pieces holding it all together are the pieces that I end up revising over and over and over again because they don't sound right, until they sound exactly right. (inaudible 45:24)
THERAPIST: [A lot is alike] (ph) when it comes to the first draft.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.
THERAPIST: Well, we can stop (inaudible 45:36).
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