TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Are we on for tomorrow morning?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. What's on your mind?

CLIENT: I really don't know. I was reading my twitter page before you came out, so yeah. That's on my mind because that was what I was reading most recently, but you know.

THERAPIST: Well what else? I mean, when I ask like I actually really mean whatever's on your mind.

CLIENT: (laugh)

THERAPIST: I know it sounds like there's some implied caveat there. You know as long as it seems relevant to psychotherapy or as long as it seems appropriate in some way. Or as long as it seems important I mean. But that's really not, those really aren't there. [00:01:08]

CLIENT: Right, but I'm not sure it's useful to just report to you what people in my twitter feed are saying. Like I wasn't really engaging with anything, I was just you know, reading because I was bored.

THERAPIST: Well, I – like it is useful if that if that's what's on your mind I mean let's see. Even if it's other people's words verbatim because you were bored and weren't particularly thinking of stuff on your own like, there's actually really quite a lot just in all that. [00:02:00]

You know, I mean (long pause) like, for example, maybe probably actually, there's some way if you'd rather be just using other people's words and opt from therapy sometimes in your own. [00:02:32]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or, you know sort of anticipating coming in here and talking about stuff and your life and whatever.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Like that do you feel any thoughts or, thinking about that, or what's going on, or what you want to talk about. But feeling quite but feeling bored instead.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And looking at what other people have said.

CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:02:59]

THERAPIST: You know again, it's sort of ridiculous.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: You know, I mean like who knows, maybe I'm –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Barking up the wrong tree with those sort of tentative thoughts. But my point is is there a hard to see, like the context of me, like the one's on association. [00:03:25]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Then it's often the further association that elaborate that. So you know, maybe you'll -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Whatever you think of next will be like big and dramatic and it will turn out that that being bored was really just sort of reversing things and flipping them around. That is a lot that's going on. A lot that you want to be talking about. [00:03:49]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And you're having to flatten it all out when you're out there.

CLIENT: (laugh)

THERAPIST: Because it would have been overwhelming, you know, I don't know. [00:03:55]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I actually have found a theme for the day that –

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: When people come in and say yeah, I don't really have much to talk about or really much to say, often it's like, it seems sort of surprising to me how often things that are obviously a big deal and running very closely, thereafter. [00:04:14]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Which is not exactly what you came in and said. I'm just saying that -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: For all of us.

CLIENT: Um-hum. Yeah. So -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: As you were talking -

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: About how you know, he'll just you know, make connections between topics and I I went from you know, oh my friend, he did something stupid about the book he's writing. Which reminded me last week I wrote a story featuring the historical guy [00:04:50]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: From the Crusades, who my friend was named after.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Which I sent to another friend of mine, Jeanette for a proofread and -

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I'm terribly anxious over that e-mail interaction with Jeanette. So what happened is I wrote this story. I couldn't sleep. I just could not get to sleep at all. So you know, I wrote a story instead. [00:05:13]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And posted it into my blog at like four in the morning. And finally passed out. And by the time I woke up, I had like fifty comments -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: From friends of mine saying, you know, wow, this is amazing. You should submit it to this magazine. [00:05:25]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like they're wanting to see this published. Including a friend of mine who actually is an editor of a magazine -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Who said I need to publish, but said that. But not to my magazine, because I publish poetry not short stories, but. [00:05:35]

THERAPIST: Okay. He had some cred.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which was great. But they were all white people.

THERAPIST: Um-huh.

CLIENT: And the story was set in the middle east.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And so I sent it to Jeanette saying you know -

THERAPIST: Not white?

CLIENT: Yeah, he is from the Middle East.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Saying can you just give this the once over and tell me if I've like, given offense or crossed any boundaries. Like I don't think I did, but south Asia is not the middle east and I'm not as familiar with this mythology as I should be. And you know, I really don't want to [00:06:10]

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Publish something that's going to offend a bunch of people. And so Jeanette replied with like, three times the number of words in her reply as I had written in the original story. Because as it turns out, I happened to touch on the topic of her PhD thesis that's she's writing right now. [00:06:32]

THERAPIST: Oh my!

CLIENT: And -

THERAPIST: That's one of the fifteen great blunders or something, isn't it?

CLIENT: Yeah. Don't start a land war in Asia. Don't ask the PhD to comment about their thesis.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: Yeah. So anyway, so like this story, it's, it's ugh, a fantasy story. There's a jinn, there are fairies and sprites, it's set in the crusades. [00:06:53]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I'm sure you can infer a lot of the plot just from that. But anyway, so Jeanette writes back with this long thing that you know, completely tears it apart.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Not because I got the middle eastern mythology wrong, but because I got the British mythology wrong.

THERAPIST: (laughing)

CLIENT: (big sigh)

THERAPIST: I don't mean to be laughing and getting it wrong, it's just ironic.

CLIENT: Right. So she writes this long response. And at a couple of points in her e-mail, she asks me questions. Like you know, why would your protagonist know this? You know, what time period does this action take place in? Etcetera. [00:07:30]

Oh, and she also critiqued my use of at some point the protagonist calls the Templar knights who fought the crusades Christian. And she's like but protestants didn't think Catholics were Christian. And they thought Catholics were pagan nonsense. So how is this working? [00:07:49]

So I wrote back and on a couple of her concerns I said you know, it's really valid and I'll take this into account and rewrite this paragraph. On others you know, where she asked questions, I answered the question. And said you know, so you asked X, the answer to X is this. Is that clear in the story? What can I do to make that clearer? Does it just not work? [00:08:06]

And then on the bit about you know, you shouldn't be calling the Templar knights Christians. I was like well, the protestant reformation happened 400 years after the crusades, so all western Christians were Catholics. The terms were synonymous, so. [00:08:22]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And of course the protagonist would have had experience with Eastern Orthodox Christians because the protagonist was from the middle east. And the Syrian and Coptic were the most religious of have continuous presence in the region -

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: For the last two thousand years. So that's where that comes from. I heard some other things, oh then I ended with you know, thank you so much for the critique. And she never replied for like three days. I got really nervous. And so I asked Dave to look it over and he was like, this sounds a little bit defensive on your part. And I was like oh. [00:08:58]

So I replied to Jeanette again saying you know, -

THERAPIST: You mean a bunch of it, or just the part about the when he said this sounds defensive, was he referring to like, specific in what you had written, or was he saying the tone of the whole response?

CLIENT: He was referring to the whole thing.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So I replied back and I said you know, you know rereading these e-mails, I realized I was kind of defensive. And I apologized. You know you gave me a really thoughtful, detailed response. And I didn't intend to be ungracious in replying. [00:09:24]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Please forgive me. And she hasn't responded to that either. And she hasn't talked to me on twitter in the last five days. Which is odd. We usually chat on twitter all the time.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So I fear that I have completed destroyed our relationship by being defensive on e-mail about a story that I wrote. (pause) And like I'm not sure where the lines are for asking for critique from friends of mine who are also professional writers and publishers. Because it's, it's (pause) when I send a story to a friend to read, I'm not expecting like professional editing services. Or like a line edit or [00:10:21]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know serious help with fixing it. I'm expecting you know, three or four sentences of you know, this one thing needs majorly fixed. Or you know, this is mostly solid but you need to workshop it more, and whatever. But sometimes friends of mine do send me really detailed crit and then I don't know what to do with it. Because I don't know what (pause) the lines get blurred because these are people who were my friends before I started writing, so. [00:10:49]

And I don't know what the, what the standards for behavior in this community are. If that makes sense. Like I don't know what the rules that I'm supposed to be following are. (very long pause) [00:11:49]

(continued very long pause) [00:12:49] (continued very long pause) [00:13:49] (continued long pause) [00:14:21]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think my impression is that you like, ideally would want me to sort of tell you, or lay out some clear guidelines that you could take a hold of. And I think that's partly because -

CLIENT: It would surprise me if you did that, but it would be very welcomed as well.

THERAPIST: Oh, I know, I know.

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: I know you don't expect it right at this point. But I think it also reflects (pause) how anxious those sorts of interactions make you. Like (long pause) like (long pause) you know a kind of informal brief for like social interaction. [00:15:50]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Over you know, -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Involving an elaborate critique on something you wrote.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And asked her about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sort of free forms as a -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know it's not like interaction at work, where -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Everyone says here's what you're going to do.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And you know that kind of clear protocols and -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: For a lot of context, but.

CLIENT: Right. [00:16:21]

THERAPIST: And I think also the issue of hurting you critique -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Probably contribute to that anxiety.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I guess my point is that -

CLIENT: I also really was not expecting to get critiqued on my use of mythology. I was expecting all the critiques to be on the Arab mythology that I used. [00:16:45]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So, there is that. (long pause)

THERAPIST: I gather you're saying it stung a little bit.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: That she critiqued stuff you felt more confident about.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: And I imagine it also felt a little aggressive on her part.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Or may I don't know, maybe kind of ugly.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh, but a bit aggressive.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Okay. (long pause) [00:17:59]

And (pause) and I guess in that way (very long pause) I don't know I guess I imagined that because of her ability to be aggressive and your being kind of surprised, I guess I'm kind of taken aback. [00:18:55]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Both by how elaborate her critique was and why she was critiquing the one who wrote it. [00:19:02]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: It made you anxious which I think makes you kind of loose the stuff that you have a feel for how you're supposed to respond.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And then you're kind of understandably like reaching for me and reaching for some you know, kind of like rules to guide -

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: What you can do.

CLIENT: Um-hum. (very long pause) [00:20:00]

THERAPIST: What comes to mind?

CLIENT: Oh, I'm just thinking that this is a pattern of a lot of my friendships, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I worry about being too pushy or overstepping boundaries and not realizing I'm doing that. (long pause) And this is especially an issue with Ashley. [00:20:39]

So last Saturday he texted me to say he had to cancel the date we had planned for Sunday because the cat was in the cat hospital

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And because reasons. And then Sunday night we were chatting on IM and he said you know, the cat had been released from the hospital and it was well enough to be taken off oxygen and was stable. [00:20:59]

And so Monday morning I sent him an e-mail saying you know, glad the cat is doing better. Can we reschedule one for any of these dates. Well apparently the cat took a turn for the worse Monday. And by the time he got my e-mail, they didn't think the cat was going to live through the night. And so he was like, I cannot think about this now, the cat's not going to make it through the night. Goodbye. [00:21:20]

Except then (laugh) the cat rallied and there's just this whole roller coaster last week. Fucking cat.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And he got better and then the cat was stable again Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday. And so Friday the cat had been stable for a week, or not a week, but four days. Four days, a work week. And so I e-mailed Ashley again and said you know, I'd like to see you and it sounds like the cat is stable, when are you free? [00:21:48]

And so he replied and he said well here's you know, a dozen dates that I'm free. And I replied and said well, the only one where you know, I'm free for the entire evening and have no caveats is August 15th. I'd like to plan on that. Here are some other dates that might or might not work depending on whether you're willing to work around my scheduling nonsense. [00:22:13]

And so you know, I told him you know, on this date, you know I'm not going to be able to leave work until 7:30, which is kind of late for a work night.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And said you know, I'd be happy to see you afterwards.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: On this night I'm free all evening. I can work from home so that we don't lose an hour to -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: My horrible commute. But there's a webinar that I have to be logged into from 8:30 to 9:30, and you know, up to you if you want to work around this or not. And he hasn't replied to that e-mail at all. But he does share his calendar with me and I can see on his calendar that you know, some of the dates where I said you know, I could see you if you're willing to work around my ridiculousness, he has made plans with other people. So clearly he's very planned you know, just hasn't replied to it. [00:23:00]

And then of course the cat died on -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Tuesday night. So I don't know when it would be appropriate to e-mail him back and say so, can we plan on the 15th? Like, can we like put that in our calendars? Because I'd like to. [00:23:23]

And also I had been resistant to scheduling anything at all next week because this friend of mine from Australia is going to be in she's in the U.S. now for a month.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And she said she was going to be here sometime next week, but she doesn't know when. And she would like to see me, but she hasn't bought her bus tickets yet. So she doesn't know when she's going to be here. So I've been reserving every night next week for her in case she shows up. And now she's saying she doesn't know if she's going to come or not, and if she does, it might be the week after next week instead of next week. [00:23:59]

And like I just –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But (pause) given that he's still you know, grieving over the cat, that means it's not really short notice for you know, are you still free on Monday. I'm not sure it would be appropriate to e-mail him and say so are you still free on Monday? I don't know what to do. Especially not if I have to explain that you know, well I was reserving Monday for someone else. But now that you know, she's bailed on me [00:24:31]

That sounds really terrible in my head. Like I would certainly perceive that as you were my second choice. Like you were my second string here and that would feel really shitty for me. But on the other hand I really want to see him. And I don't want to wait another three weeks to see him. So I don't know. I'm waffling over what to do. [00:24:58]

And it's another case of you know, I don't know what the perimeters for acceptable social behavior are. (very long pause) [00:25:58]

(continued very long pause) [00:26:58] (continued long pause) [00:27:13]

THERAPIST: Well I guess I'm not even sure what to say.

CLIENT: (chuckle) (big sigh) (very long pause) I feel a little embarrassed but it seems like all I've been able to talk about in these sessions for the last month has been relationship angst. (sigh) (pause) [00:28:11]

I saw a comment a couple of weeks ago that said -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Interesting people talk about ideas. Boring people talk about other people. Intolerable people talk about how much they drank last night.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. It puts me squarely in the boring category. (very long pause) [00:29:11]

(continued long pause) [00:29:35]

THERAPIST: I mean (pause) Okay so, I think (pause) you seem to be like very worried about (pause) or like very much anticipating that if you really kind of put yourself out there in front of people, they will not respond well and will be critical of you. You will seem needy and inappropriate. [00:30:39]

CLIENT: That's actually because that's been the bulk of my experience is with neediness. (pause) I mean this – this anxiety of mine didn't spring forth from a vacuum. You know, it's based on history. (pause) [00:31:03]

THERAPIST: Oh. (pause) I guess you started to worry there that I was telling you you were being unreasonable? Maybe?

CLIENT: Maybe. Maybe.

THERAPIST: Which would involve me finding you inappropriate or?

CLIENT: Yes, well.

THERAPIST: The things I have in mind are like the hesitant that we talked about right at the beginning -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: For a little bit to sort of say what's on your mind. The sense that I get when you I mean again what you're talking about in your relationships too, but for a minute I'm going to just talk about how I see it in here.

CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:31:59]

THERAPIST: Until I guess sometimes it's like you kind of put stuff out there sort of in chunks.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And then you kind of hang back and wait to see what I'm going to do with it.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: The chunks seem like coherent, circumscribed, clear,

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Often like pointed as comments or questions.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And yeah, I guess it's as if there's a kind of wariness and watchfulness of me

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: To see what I'm going to do -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: With it. And how I am going to see what you said as reflecting on you.

CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:32:52]

THERAPIST: And (long pause) and it seems that I guess it's also clear that this really isn't easy for you. It's very hard I think sometimes. Particularly saying some of the kinds of things you are saying, like oh, I need your help. I don't understand this. I feel confused about what to do. Those are none of things are things you like to say. But -

CLIENT: No it isn't.

THERAPIST: Especially to somebody else. You know and I get that, but you know you really -

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I know what you mean.

THERAPIST: And you feel pretty exposed and worried.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:33:58]

THERAPIST: And I think that's also, there's probably more specificity. I'm sure there's more good to you then I'm getting, but that seems pretty clear in the incidents you're describing as well.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: That sense of exposure both with Ashley.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And with Jeanette, Jeanette?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And sort of need and kind of worry about the appropriateness of how you're handling situations like that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And (pause) I guess interestingly your sort of, maybe quick initial response to me was, well look, this is what's always happened and all. This is what has often happened to me. [00:35:03]

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Which is where it comes from.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Which (pause) I guess sounded to me like a kind of quick assertion that this was reasonable, even rational for you to be feeling, as if A, I was saying it wasn't.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And B, at least one, if not both of us, would think that if it wasn't that would be bad.

CLIENT: Right. (pause)

THERAPIST: I guess it probably felt like a little more exposure then really was tolerable, if that makes sense.

CLIENT: That does make sense. [00:36:01]

THERAPIST: And -

CLIENT: And it's mostly accurate.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (long pause) Which I think reflects a feeling which you would not sort of in another way endorse, -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: But that like, I'm really going to go after you for what you're telling me. Like I'm going to zing you if it's irrational or unreasonable.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: If it reflects sort of a need from me or someone else. If it exposes you in some way. Like I'm going to (pause) I'll get you. [00:37:26]

Again, I think if you like, entirely believe that of me, you wouldn't be here.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But I, I also think that, (pause) kind of now that you do anticipate that. And sort of then feel pretty conflicted about trying to put stuff out there and talk about it and -

CLIENT: I don't -

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know I [00:38:05]

CLIENT: Well it sounds pretty accurate to me.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. And I – it's like, I don't have an impression that that feels especially new to you or like surprising. But I imagine the utility is in sort of (pause) like seeing how it's unfolding and how you're acting -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And what you're expecting, being here kind of without I think, in real kind of being necessarily so aware of it. [00:39:01]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: More like, let's see how these things we kind of already know about you are operating.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: In here and then hopefully as we learn from that, you know also in the kind of situations that you are -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Only helping.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That took a lot of courage.

CLIENT: Yeah. (very long pause) [00:40:00]

So there's a part of me that thinks it would be easier to just declare that I'm not going to contact Ashley until he contacts me first. Because you know over the last couple of exchanges on e-mail and on IM, I've had the last word.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So it's his turn. But (sigh) I know that you know, given his issues with anxiety and depression, he's never going to initiate that conversation which means if I go that route, that would be defective breaking up without saying I'm breaking up. Which is -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Kind of shitty.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But it certainly would be -

THERAPIST: I'm getting a sense that in one of the main cues one has and you use to tell if someone to get someone's interest are like how actively they're reaching out. [00:40:57]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And if you're dealing with someone like him who's generally pretty passive –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It like obscures –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: The meaning of the behavior.

CLIENT: Right. But it certainly would be the path of least resistance for me to -

THERAPIST: I'll buy that, yeah.

CLIENT: Just decide that for myself. And then let it fade and not – it certainly be one that puts me in the least vulnerable position because I'm not reaching out.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But it's really not what I want. I don't want to end things with him and I want to keep seeing him. When we're actually together face to face, it's, he's incredibly attentive and loving and considerate and wonderful. I really enjoy his presence and his company and conversation and (pause) [00:42:01]

But it does kind of force me to be more willing to take more risks than I usually am. (long pause) But it's not as if I didn't know that he's you know, very passive and bad at communicating.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Before you know, the first time I asked him out back in April, I mean and then on several levels this is -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: This is a complaint I have heard about him.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Repeatedly over the last 10 years. [00:42:47]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Why do you think there's also in some of your sort of frustration with this like so I know that you are absolutely frustrated with this (chuckle) or with him. I think there may also be an aspect of some frustration that we captured in what you're saying as well, in that I, at least in my role here with you, am similarly passive and are responsive. Like I'm not all that reassuring really. Like I don't tell you what I think of you, or what I think of what you're saying, or -

CLIENT: That's true.

THERAPIST: Other things about my feelings and reactions to you in response to what you say. And I think that also puts you in the position here of taking bigger risks -

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: Then you're accustomed to or -

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: To hold back.

CLIENT: That's true, and it is a little bit frustrating and I would certainly -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (chuckle) I wouldn't say no to more reassurance from you, that I'm not you know, being a bad human being and completely screwing up everything in my life. But on the other hand, it's probably good for me, which is probably why you don't provide that reassurance. [00:44:10]

And it's kind of a very clear counterpoint to the way Chrissy dealt with me -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Which was to like, she would frequently like interrupt me and stop what I was saying to say no, you're description of your experiences are wrong. You are actually being a good person. You are and she would just tell me what I was feeling in a way that was very invalidating and upsetting. So (long pause) [00:45:03]

THERAPIST: Well I am glad I'm not being unhelpful in that way.

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: And I just usually don't. Let's meet tomorrow.

CLIENT: Yep. [00:45:24]

END TRANSCRIPT