TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Hello. So I got a letter yesterday asking me to consider being a Eucharistic visitor at my church? So that's somebody who goes around to people who can't make it to church and takes the Eucharist to them, talks to them and things...

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Which I'm excited to do.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: It's nice to be asked.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [I'm glad] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) (Chuckling) I don't know if it happens to you, but, when I dream in the early morning before I wake up, it's often more vivid, and I remember it more? [0:00:57]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And it's harder for me to distinguish between dreaming and not dreaming? So I dreamed it was Thursday. (Chuckling) And then at one point I was in the shower and was like, shit. It's actually Wednesday, isn't it?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: Oh (laughing). So... (Pause) That was lots of fun. (Pause) I also dreamed weirdly that I was at Sephora looking for makeup, because I don't go to Sephora ever. I get my makeup from the drugstore.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause) [0:02:03]

CLIENT: I've pretty much stopped wearing makeup in the last week. Mostly... I've had acne for the last six months. And it's just been a very frustrating thing for me.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: I'm really self-conscious about it and all of that. And I think the makeup is making it worse, so...

THERAPIST: I see. (Pause) Are there other things in the dreams that you have associations to? (Pause) [0:02:59]

CLIENT: I don't think so, that I remember, not today.

THERAPIST: Like, Sephora as opposed to the drugstore, is that (crosstalk)?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, the only time I went... I've been to Sephora, it wasn't actually Sephora. It was sort of something like that. I went with Candace a couple of times when we were in Charlotte, getting makeup for my wedding actually. I know it exists. I have, yeah, associations with it. But this was like... I was looking through the sale rack and trying to find something that matched my skin tone and kept finding things that almost did but not quite? It was one of those frustration dreams where...

THERAPIST: Oh. Uh-huh. [0:03:57]

CLIENT: Where you don't actually ever find what you're looking for. But, unlike in real life, where you eventually give up, you keep thinking that it's got to be right there. (Pause) [0:05:00] Yeah, I have those a lot, looking for something or trying to do something or trying to find something (inaudible at 0:05:09) I haven't quite woken up.

THERAPIST: I see. (Pause)

CLIENT: It's weird talking to you about my physical appearance. And I can't tell whether that's because you're a man or whether that's because you're another person. So...

THERAPIST: Hmm. (Pause) [0:06:00]

CLIENT: When I was... I've tried to get away from the kind of bonding that involves tearing yourself down, tearing your appearance down? And so that's sort of just... and also, I mean, I don't have... I don't really have... I don't have close female friends here in Providence? So that sort of devolved into, I just don't talk about the way I look with almost anybody? I sort of talk at James sometimes. [0:06:57] But he doesn't really have much to say. And I'm not actually looking for him to say very much. I'm just sort of talking. But... (Pause)

Yeah, I'm going through a period of really just not liking much about the way I look. And, I mean, I've got acne and don't like my hair. And I don't like most of my clothes, and etc, etc. So I just don't talk about it. (Pause) [0:08:00] Kind of like (pause) that feeling of when you look in the mirror and getting ready to start the day, oh, this is probably about the best I can do. Oh well. It's not so bad. That's just... it's both... it feels pretty normal to me in terms of, most of my life that was a really good day (laughing). And so it feels like normal and also not so bad. [0:08:57] (Pause) [0:10:00] And I feel like... (Pause) (Chuckling) I sort of feel like, well, it doesn't call me the active anguish that it did when I was a teenager. So I'm just not going to worry too much about it (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause) [0:11:00]

CLIENT: I miss having women friends. Or I have women friends, but I miss having women friends in the same city.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: Living with Kirsten was... it was tough for my self-image because she is... the way she looks is sort of the way I always wanted to look and never possibly could?

THERAPIST: Oh. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I'm about six inches too tall, for starters, and about 50 pounds too heavy. [0:12:03] And yeah, she's just beautiful in a very different way than me. And she just hates herself, and it's really heartbreaking. (Pause) But this is hard for me (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) [0:12:57] But (pause) I was helping Amanda... or Amanda called me last week to... she was going to a family wedding, trying to decide what to wear. And so she sent me pictures of two dresses. And so it was a case where both of them were good dresses, both of them looked really good on her. Because of the way she felt about herself that day, neither of them were going to work.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I sort of said, I think this one looks great for these reasons, but I also understand that's not really what we're talking about. [0:13:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I (inaudible at 0:14:07) that. (Pause) My friend Harriet Carter (sp?), she's coming into Providence for a conference next week, so I'm hoping we can get to... I really lost touch with her in the last year. [0:15:01] I mean, it's been a very hard year for her also, so we'll see how it goes.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: I don't want seeing me to be something that causes her stress. But, as I say that, I realize that's not really my job (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I can say, and I have said, I don't want seeing me to cause you stress. So...

THERAPIST: To her.

CLIENT: Yeah, to her. [0:15:58] Conferences are busy and rough sometimes...

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So (inaudible at 0:16:03). But... (Pause) I don't... I can't really know what she's like now. But the way she was when we were friends, she's also not very good at taking her own needs into account.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. I see. (Pause)

CLIENT: We were very similar in that way. [0:16:55] And then we kind of, yeah, went different places and in different ways. And I started to learn that that was a little messed up (chuckling). Yeah. (Pause) I miss her.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) Yeah, one of the things that nice about having more female friends around is the way that it kind of reassures you that they're likely to be struggling with some of the same things... [0:18:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In a way that makes you feel less bad about the things you struggle with.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) It makes me feel like (pause) hating the way I look and hating the clothes that I have and all of that is not... it helps me not trivialize it?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. I see. (Pause)

CLIENT: But... (Pause) [0:19:00] But at the same time it's also... it isn't just me. And so... (Pause) I feel like it helps me both not trivialize it and not attach undue importance to it.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause) It sounds like it's different talking to me, a man, about it.

CLIENT: Hmm?

THERAPIST: I said it sounds like it is also different. You wondered initially...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is it difficult because it's another person or it's a guy? And from what you said since then...

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:19:57] Yeah, it's just like... (Pause) Sort of like not being able to assume a shared cultural context...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: In that it's not that I don't feel like you will understand or do understand. It's just that I imagine at least that it won't be something that is also a deep part of you.

THERAPIST: I see. (Pause) [0:21:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think both James and Franco worry about their bodies also.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I know they do. It's just a little bit different.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And in some ways they have to explain it to me, I don't understand the way that they worry. I don't... (Pause) I'm not instantly familiar with it...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Which I feel is a little bit... it's oversimplifying, because obviously not every woman experiences the same and all of that.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But... (Pause) It's sort of sick, but that is one of the things that I have found to be remarkably similar among almost all the women I've ever met. [0:22:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The ways that Kirsten worries about her body and about her clothes are so much the same as the ways that I worry about my body and about my clothes. And we look so different. And we were raised so differently.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: Of course that's something you can only find out as an adult because when you're a child and a teenager you hate each other, because you think, oh, well, she has the body that I want. So she must not have any problems at all (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And then eventually you realize, no, everybody gets screwed (chuckling). [0:22:56] Nobody wins. (Pause) That was one of the hard things about being raised by Papa (ph), was just that there was no way that he could understand that being clothed wasn't enough.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Right, having a shirt on your back wasn't enough.

CLIENT: Yeah. In retrospect, I think he was just proud that we all made it out the door in clothes every day?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I can sort of say, yes, that is something you should be proud of.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yes, that must have been really hard. [0:23:58] But... (Pause) And I was really tall for my age, pretty much always. And, until I hit puberty, I was very thin. But... so, I mean, looking at old pictures, I just wore massively too large clothes. I just wore adult hand-me-downs...

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: For years and years and years.

THERAPIST: I see, that sort of fit you in terms of height but not at all in terms of your shape?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm not even sure that they did fit me in terms of height.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I think they were just way too big.

THERAPIST: Way too big? [0:24:51]

CLIENT: And yeah, I just cringe when I look at those pictures (chuckling), partly because I'm just like, oh, that's... I think mostly because I just... I look at the pictures, and I think about how unhappy I was. I don't like really looking at pictures of myself as a kid. (Pause) Most of... because most pictures that you have everybody is smiling in some way or another. And I just... (Pause) Yeah, I just remember being so miserable. Facebook is the worst for that, because you can't take down other people's pictures of you (laughing).

THERAPIST: I see, yeah. [0:25:56] (Pause)

CLIENT: And you can't say... it just... it feels... it would feel churlish to say to my parents and... oh, by the way, all these pictures that you have happy memories of are incredibly painful reminders to me of a really miserable time in my life. [0:27:04] Yeah, I can't say that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause)

CLIENT: So for our toast at my wedding-there was a dinner-my dad read a story that I'd written in fifth grade. [I don't know if I've] (ph) told you that. And it was very clearly ripped off from a book that I was reading or that I'd read many times. And everybody thought this was the sweetest thing, first that he'd saved this from when I was in fifth grade, and then that he read it.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And it was this very lovely thing. And it was very sweet. And it was so painful for me to listen to. I just couldn't stand it. It was agonizing. [0:27:56] I was like, please stop, please stop, please stop. But they... he was trying to do this nice thing. And I never... so everyone was kind of like, no, it's a great story. And the other week we were visiting [Cody and Kerry] (sp?), and this came up. And Cody was like, oh my God, that must have been awful. I was like, yes, it was awful (chuckling). It was like, finally, here's somebody who understands. And I think it's because you never... that writing never stops being what I did. I can't look at it as the story that a fifth grader wrote? It's the story that I wrote? And it's not something that I would be proud of today, and so it's not something I can be proud of? And so it was just... it was nice to have somebody just automatically get that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause) [0:28:58]

CLIENT: It was... I mean, it was funny to hear it again. I thought it was like a novel when I wrote it. And it was very short (laughing). (Pause)

THERAPIST: What was it about?

CLIENT: It was about dragons and a princess who didn't want to be a princess. (Pause) And the prince comes to slay the dragon and marry her. And she's like, screw that. She's like, no, I'm not going to let you mess with the dragon that is my best friend. So then they have a fight, and she wins. And the prince is like, why would I want to marry you anymore? This sucks. And she's like, okay, fine, get off my back. And then he leaves, and everybody's happy. There's this book, Dealing with Dragons, that is pretty much exactly that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [0:31:00] (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, it's hard for me to talk about it. (Pause) [0:32:00] (Teary) It's something that my dad was so proud of, the, I guess, result of my reading all the time. But he did a lot of discouraging my reading all the time, not that I think he would... I think if I'd stopped reading, he would have encouraged me to read more. But it was always... it was just like, you can't read at the dinner table (chuckling). [0:32:57]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You can't read all of the time. You can't read when you're visiting other people.

THERAPIST: Right, I see.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) You can't go to parties and read. I don't know. (Pause) I feel like he was so proud of me being this (ph) kind of gifted with words and reading a lot and being creative and writing, and he thought (ph) that helped me. [0:34:03] The reading probably helped me. But in terms of (inaudible at 0:34:18) none of it feeds me.

THERAPIST: Do you mean his being proud of it, or do you mean you're being good at it?

CLIENT: Both.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Neither of them protected you at all.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) [0:35:00] I guess more my being good at it.

THERAPIST: mm-hmm. (Pause) You're talking a lot today about (pause) the horror of how you see yourself and the ways that-I guess this was the dream partly-you're always looking to cover that up in some fashion and kind of compulsively...

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: Or without realizing it. [0:35:58] And in this incredibly frustrating way it doesn't work that well or for that long. (Pause)

CLIENT: That makes sense.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah, I haven't stopped wearing makeup because I don't want to wear makeup. I've stopped wearing makeup because it seems to be making my acne worse, and it doesn't actually work very well to cover up (laughing). And it's really hard not to wear makeup. Hard to walk out the door.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I wear mascara, but that's it. (Pause) [0:36:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think that falls sort of pretty...

CLIENT: Neatly (sp) (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Neatly, in that it makes what you're already feeling so awful about worse and doesn't cover it up. And it's sort of terrifying to be without it at the same time. (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, it doesn't (ph). [0:37:57] I think, because this way of being or a way of thinking... because hating self basically is something that most if not all the women that I know share to a greater or lesser extent, I... (Pause) So I said before that being around other women helps me not to trivialize it or take it too seriously. But I think what I want... I think that it helps me not to trivialize or take too seriously the individual choices that I make and the kind of effects of it? [0:39:04] But it makes it harder to tell whether it's something I should actually be worried about or something that I should actually pay attention to. The... not... with the... sorry (inaudible at 0:39:23). It makes it harder to tell whether the kind of horror of being myself (chuckling)... whether that is something that I should pay attention to.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah, I think... (Pause) [0:39:59]

CLIENT: Sometimes I don't know what to do with people who don't hate themselves. I don't know how to talk to them (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or I do. It's just probably a little... I feel like there's a gulf. (Pause)

THERAPIST: [For instance] (ph) that you (pause) sort of believe that people either hate themselves in the ways and with the intensity that you do or they're space aliens.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Hmm. That seems pretty reductive when you put it that way. Not that what you're saying about me, but the kinds of things you're describing.

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk) to other people.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:41:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think in a way clearly you don't feel like that. But I think it feels that way sometimes.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I don't want that for anybody else that I know. And so I... (Pause) Yeah, I try to cover it up. (Pause) [0:41:49]

THERAPIST: And the other sort of angle, which I think is the way things felt... as in junior high, I guess, and high school that you were describing, where the kind of hatred and interest in kind of crushing you or taking away what you have sort of isn't what you're doing to yourself. It's what other people want to do.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: Like what you were saying about this kind of competitiveness, which I guess I understand was a pretty cutthroat competitiveness [that you felt] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, all in the sense that it's like, I'm never really in the competition? [0:42:59]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So it's kind of like, did people want to stomp on me that day or not?

THERAPIST: Yeah. In that case, the kind of crushing hatred wasn't coming from yourself but from them. And then later it seemed like, well, that's what people do to themselves actually.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what I told myself. (Pause)

THERAPIST: And (pause) I think that's... (Pause) [0:44:00] That's what makes it tough, I think, to talk to me about, is that, whether sort of in some fashion it comes from me or it comes from you, you're kind of in the room with the crushing hatred, if you're talking about how you look or how you feel about how you look or other things like that.

CLIENT: How do you mean? I'm sorry, I'm not...

THERAPIST: You say it's difficult to talk about, or it makes you feel self-conscious. And it may be because I'm a person or because I'm a guy. I think... (Pause) [0:45:00] It makes it kind of difficult to talk about it because, from a variety of possible angles, it evokes that self-hatred or hatred.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: And you're really nervous about... (Pause)

CLIENT: Are you going to hate me for this?

THERAPIST: I don't think you think I'm going to... well, there may be kind of (crosstalk)...

CLIENT: Or stomp on me (chuckling)? I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: No, that's okay (chuckling). Well, that you're going to feel incredibly self-hating as you're talking about it, and that will come to the surface. Or I will say, I don't... it's a little complex the way you anticipate I'm going to stomp on you. [0:45:55] I think you anticipate that I might say something that's very hurtful...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Intended therapeutically or in whatever way. But that seems to be more how it works.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You don't generally tend to get angry with me because you feel like I've been deliberately cruel so much as you experience something I say as sort of very hurtful or destructive or devastating. But it was probably true, and so it's your problem or something like that. But it's still (inaudible at 0:46:42).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We should stop. [0:46:57]

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