TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: ...turn of events.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) It's okay. (inaudible at 00:00:05)

THERAPIST: Oh okay. Okay.

CLIENT: So... (SIGH) (PAUSE) So James (ph) and I talked yesterday about a lot of things.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I talked about like being anxious not knowing where we're going to be and things like that. So, as it turns out, James's advisor is out of money.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like he's... All of his grad students next year are going to have to teach because he only has enough money to pay one of them. So James needs to finish by the end of the summer because he, because Kevin (ph) probably won't be able to pay him in the fall. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Right. (inaudible at 00:00:55)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. He'll... Yeah. They like have enough money to (inaudible) [00:01:01] So he really needs to finish by then and be started somewhere else by the fall.

THERAPIST: Right. I have in practice at least people will often (inaudible at 00:01:17)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Of course, you could finish and then start looking right after and then...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that won't be an option.

CLIENT: Yeah. So... (SIGH) (PAUSE) So I talked a lot about like where we needed to be and how much do I need to be in Denver. And I don't know how to answer that question at all. Yeah. [00:01:57]

(PAUSE)

You know, it was kind of a, it was a rough conversation because, you know, I hadn't really talked to James about it because I didn't want him to feel like if we did move, it would be, I would be blaming him for that or thinking he's like taking me away from, you know, Denver where my support system is because it's not actually how it is. But he did feel that way it turns out. (LAUGHTER) So I, you know, talked about it. (LAUGHTER) That's not right. We talked some about... (PAUSE) James, at one point, said that it sounded to him like I wanted to be a partner to him but it looked like I wasn't willing to do what it took to do that. [00:03:07]

I said, "Well, no. I want to be a partner to you and I can't be a partner to you if I'm in the hospital. I just can't." And so... (PAUSE) Yeah. So we sort of agreed that like the best way I can support him right now is to take care of myself, like, be well. And I don't know... I don't know. But I don't know how to do that. [00:03:59]

I don't know how to trust that. Like I don't know how to get to a place where I don't feel like everything is going to collapse eminently and there's nothing I can do about it. (SIGH) (PAUSE) It seems like James has at least some idea of what he wants to do which is nice. He sort of has come around to thinking that, yes, he really would like to be in academia and he really would like to be... He would really like to have graduate students and would like to be running a lab like that which was not the case a year ago. [00:05:03]

So, yeah, that's nice. (PAUSE) Like, you know, I think he's... I think he's very well suited to it. (PAUSE) So most of the places, I think... I know most of the places. But he definitely is working very hard with the people in Denver and I think he's trying to stay here. But I don't know what that will look like.

THERAPIST: I just remember what... I know you said he doesn't like Denver very much.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) No. I don't think he does. [00:06:07]

But I think he... I think he doesn't like the Square very much. (LAUGHTER) Which, yeah. (LAUGHTER) I can't really blame him. (LAUGHTER) He said that when his parents were visiting, they wouldn't, they didn't want to go on the campus. Like they didn't want to go on Brown campus.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: They are funny. So one of the... One of the things that's kind of best option for him right now is kind of this guy who's a (inaudible at 00:06:47) (LAUGHTER) Oh well. And then there's somebody at Dartmouth and somebody at UCB (ph) and maybe somebody in Delaware. [00:07:03]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And there's like several people in Denver.

THERAPIST: Where else? Like several other in Denver...

CLIENT: Like Brown and Harvard basically. So if he wants to have the option, then like having graduate students, like teaching at a research university, he basically needs to work with like one of six or seven people. THERAPIST: Right. Yeah. I know what you're saying. Like, if that's what he wants to do, then it really comes down to (inaudible at 00:07:41)

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, the good news is that he's in a position where he's very competitive for his job.

THERAPIST: Oh good.

CLIENT: Yeah. His advisors like... (PAUSE) He's not a member of the academy. I don't think he has a Nobel Prize. But he's not far below that level. Like it's more chance that he doesn't have a Nobel Prize than anything else. And so yeah.

THERAPIST: Has he published much?

CLIENT: He's published some. I don't know exactly how much. He's trying to get a bunch of papers out now.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Has a collaborator who...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...is slow. So that's driving him nuts. Yeah. His research and his like time with Kevin hasn't gone the way he had hoped. So I think it's been really frustrating for him.

THERAPIST: What does he do? Biomechanics?

CLIENT: Inorganic, synthetic...

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: He works with precursors. I don't know what those are. Yeah. I don't know what that is. THERAPIST: Is it really materials or...

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like... He's sort of on the line between inorganic and materials. He's kind of bouncing back between.

THERAPIST: Gotcha. [00:09:15]

CLIENT: But Kevin has told him that he's one of the best grad students he's ever had. So...

THERAPIST: That's good.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. I feel like (inaudible at 00:09:31) I'm going to be anxious about... (SIGH) I'm going to be anxious and think that I could slip down into the worst that things have ever been at any second. Like I'm going to feel that way anyway. And so the imminent move or imminent change for James is kind of a convenient thing for me to put that on. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I see. [00:10:05]

CLIENT: Like I would be worried anyway but here's something I can worry about. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I think I get it. Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) So we've... I've talked a couple of times about whether Skyping would work if I ended up moving.

THERAPIST: Right

CLIENT: And you said that you weren't sure and like licensure might come into it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (PAUSE) I used to do that and then I found out that it's actually, in some instances in another state, it is considered working in that other state usually.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:11:01]

THERAPIST: And licensure for psychologists is by state.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So, you know, if there is a reasonable way to manage that, I'm happy to work over Skype. I think in most cases there probably isn't.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But it sounds like that it would be at least a pretty small number of states to check out. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like Texas, Montana, and Delaware, I think.

THERAPIST: And Delaware. Okay.

CLIENT: Can I ask you to check that out?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Sure.

CLIENT: If not, I can...

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'll check it out.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure. (PAUSE) [00:12:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) I don't know what licensure for psychologists is like but if it's anything like teaching licensure, it's complicated.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: It's complicated.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Let's see. So there's Texas, Montana, Delaware.

CLIENT: Is there anything I can do to look that up?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, you could look it up as easy as me (inaudible at 00:12:51)

CLIENT: Okay. Okay. (PAUSE) [00:13:00]

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:13:05)

CLIENT: Thank you. Okay. I'll look at that too.

THERAPIST: But if you don't find anything, then I'll look it up.

CLIENT: Sure. (PAUSE) You know, in a lot of ways, I'm sort of glad that things have to be moving faster now because it means I don't have to sort of wait around for all of this. [00:13:59] (PAUSE)

You know, James has said that if we need to stay here, we can stay here. But I don't know what that means right now. I don't know. I don't know... (SIGH) So there's that. But then on the other side, I don't... Neither of us is willing to be held hostage to my emotions is the way that James put it the other day. I'm right there with him. But I don't know what the difference between making decisions based on what we will need and being held hostage to my emotions looks like. [00:15:07] I don't know how to distinguish between them. I imagine fear has a lot to do with it. But I don't... (PAUSE) You know, I... (SIGH) (PAUSE) It's like I'm so afraid even when I don't notice it that I don't know how to get outside of it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: You know, sometimes I think I'm outside of it but I don't... Sometimes (inaudible at 00:15:55) [00:15:57] I think most of my decisions are coming from fear. (PAUSE) [00:17:00]

THERAPIST: You don't know if you're up for moving and I guess a large part of that is leaving me.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. You know, there are other things that tie me to Denver. But... (PAUSE) They aren't things that I don't know that I can replace or live without. You know, like I really like my church but there's Episcopal churches pretty much everywhere. Some of them aren't great and some of them are. Like I'll find some place to be. [00:18:01] I really like my job. I... (PAUSE) I feel like I will be able to find another job doing this elsewhere. That will be fine. You know, I don't... (PAUSE) And, you know, like, there are lots of good therapists. But there are lots and lots of bad therapists also. And it's also like good and bad isn't really a fair descriptor. There are lots of people I feel like (inaudible at 00:18:55) or would work very well with.

THERAPIST: Both of those things are true.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Okay fair enough. [00:19:03] But like it's... You know, if I find somebody really good on the first try, I wouldn't be able to just start off where I left off. That's not how it works.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And... (PAUSE) So I just picture myself like having the first several months in a new city without support (CRYING) and trying to start over. And I don't... I feel like now is not the time where I feel ready to start over. Like there have been times in my life where I felt ready for a new thing. You know? Moving to the Midwest, sort of. Definitely moving to Denver, I felt ready for the next thing. I don't... I don't want that now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:20:15] (PAUSE)

CLIENT: And I... (PAUSE) I don't want to lose this and... It's like I don't want to lose it so much that it's really hard to talk about it. Yeah. I'm sort of shy about it. (PAUSE) [00:21:00]

THERAPIST: Well, I think that you (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:21:45) talk about particularly bad things that you're feeling in a way that is pretty unusual for you. [00:22:03]

CLIENT: Can you repeat the first part? I just didn't hear it.

THERAPIST: Sure. I think you (inaudible) around me...

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:22:15) especially bad things that you feel (inaudible) you were talking to. But... (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. It's sort of hard for me to... Like, it's hard for me to be clear in my mind of exactly like what I rely on you for. So like when I try to tell James about it, I just don't do a very good job. But... Yeah. (PAUSE) [00:23:00]

So I was talking with James about this yesterday and he sort of said, "Well, I mean, do you... Does this mean that you're never going to be able to move out of Denver?" I said, "No. I don't think so." (SIGH) (PAUSE) Like I see this relationship like drawing to a close eventually. You know, in the same way that like it's okay for Dr. H (ph) to be in private practice now because like I don't sort of need her in the same way that I did six months ago. But that's not what I am right now.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:23:59] (PAUSE)

CLIENT: You know, typically that's not how it works or no one would ever accept new patients. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Yes.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) (CRYING) I'm just really, really scared. (PAUSE) [00:25:00] (PAUSE) [00:26:00]

CLIENT: And I do think I would be really scared anyway. But this is something to be scared about. (PAUSE) Because if I wasn't... (SIGH) You know, if I was not, if we were not worried about losing you, I would be worried that this wouldn't be enough to keep me safe. You know? (PAUSE) [00:27:00]

THERAPIST: Um... (PAUSE) [00:28:00] (inaudible at 00:28:21) impossible. And you're terrified of losing me now at this stage of things. And (PAUSE) I imagine you know more why than you've said so far but maybe you don't understand why. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Why I'm terrified? [00:29:01]

THERAPIST: Of losing me. Why that would be... Why you're so scared of that.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't... I don't think I do. It's like a try to think about it and I try to analyze it. But it's... The fear is so intense that I can't get... Like my mind can't work it out.

THERAPIST: Yep. That happens. I mean, the fear makes it impossible.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's very strange. (LAUGHTER) It doesn't happen that often for me or like with that many things. Like I'm sort of used to being able to... I keep expecting that if I like leave it alone for a couple of minutes and then come back to it, then it'll like have settled down, not that I can handle it but that I can think about it. Nope. Nope.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:30:05]

CLIENT: Like every time I come back to it, I just start panicking again.

THERAPIST: Yep. (PAUSE) [00:31:00]

CLIENT: I think at least part of it is that I don't think that any resilience or well being that I have is (PAUSE) is actually... It feels like it's borrowed or something. It feels like it's not actually mine. And it's... (PAUSE) I feel like I have a very clear picture of (PAUSE) how much I or how going from a moderately resilient person to someone who just couldn't handle anything in the last few years. [00:32:17]

Like that's much more clear to me. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I think there's a lot about your attachment to me that we don't understand yet (PAUSE) at least that I don't. I'm not saying it's unusual that you feel attached. I'm just saying it has different shades and different resonances with different people.

CLIENT: Right. [00:32:59]

THERAPIST: And I don't know... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:33:11) another thing (inaudible) And let me say this. You know, the... (PAUSE) You know, the other kind of nagging pragmatic consideration would be to say that there's sort of (inaudible) what would it be like, stuff like that. But (inaudible at 00:33:57) [00:34:01]

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: Oh, it just... Really, that was one of your less clear sentences.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: My point is like... (PAUSE) I wouldn't scrap it. The main point was I feel like there are things about your attachment to me that I don't understand.

CLIENT: Okay. That is interesting.

THERAPIST: And... Okay, this is the other thing.

CLIENT: It's interesting and surprising to me.

THERAPIST: And that is contributing to the fear you feel of leaving this relationship. [00:35:01]

CLIENT: Okay. (PAUSE) Yeah. I'm sort of afraid to poke too hard my attachment to you. I feel a lot of shame about it. (PAUSE) Yeah. I feel like... I guess in some ways I feel like I'm doing something wrong by being here and I need to... [00:36:03]

If I look at this too hard, I'll have to (inaudible at 00:36:11) (PAUSE) It is funny how surprised I am to hear you say that you don't understand it. Sorry. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: It's okay. [00:37:01]

CLIENT: It's like rationally I know that you don't know everything so I try not to admit to you the extent to which I think you know everything.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Sorry about that. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Well, it's a lot of pressure to know everything. That doesn't seem very fair. Then you have to like be right. And that seems like a lot of pressure.

THERAPIST: It seems like maybe you're tiptoeing a bit around saying you're disappointed that I don't know.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) No. I don't think that's it at all actually.

THERAPIST: Oh okay. More like... [00:37:59]

CLIENT: I'm really not.

THERAPIST: Okay. See, there's another thing I didn't know.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Yeah. It's more like you feel like (inaudible at 00:38:15) You have high expectations.

CLIENT: Yeah. Also it's a little... Like I am embarrassed about it. Like I feel like a little kid. Like, "Well, Chad (ph) will know this."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I feel like a little kid.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So... (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I think... (PAUSE) [00:39:00]

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, it's certainly something about why you find me reassuring.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: Well, it's nice to talk to somebody (inaudible at 00:39:21)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: ...in a way about everything right. That's pretty reassuring, really. I know you know I don't know everything. Of course I do not. And also it's interesting that you worry that, you know, the effect of me of seeing me that way. But, still, in addition to those things, it's kind of nice to feel like...

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (PAUSE) [00:40:00]

Well, and I also... I don't feel like I have to like cover for you when you're wrong. Like, you know, I feel okay telling you when you're wrong. That's also nice. (PAUSE) [00:41:00]

I think some of it is like (PAUSE) I don't feel like I have to protect myself when I'm scared here which is like most of the time. (PAUSE) [00:42:00]

Although, I don't know. I mean... (PAUSE) I'm very reluctant to talk to you about my attachment to you. [00:43:01] (PAUSE)

That's something I feel like... (PAUSE) Yeah. That's something I feel like (inaudible at 00:43:27)

THERAPIST: We should go.

CLIENT: Yeah.

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