TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: I’m really glad to have the day off today.
THERAPIST: Good.
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: It’s like... (PAUSE) I would say it’s also the job’s also getting easier. I’m not exhausted anymore on average. (PAUSE) I... (PAUSE) So we made a cake yesterday and I sort of talked it up before I realized there was only one egg in the fridge. So I was like, “Okay everybody. We’re going to the store.” (LAUGHTER) Like (inaudible at 00:00:51) and like holding hands. I was like, “No, you have to hold hands for real. This is a parking lot. It’s dangerous.” [00:01:01]
CLIENT: Like just the way they do. And there were a bunch of older people in there. Like it was just like... There was old people kind of milling around. And there was one man who must have been like eighty or so kind of took one of my hands in one of his and he was like, “How do you do it?” (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)
CLIENT: And my thought was like, “Oh, this is... They’re being good.” (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)
CLIENT: “This is fine.” So that was nice.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. And they didn’t break all the eggs. So that was... It felt like it was a good day. (PAUSE) Yeah. So it’s been good. It’s really, really good.
(PAUSE) [00:02:00]
CLIENT: You know, later they inexplicably started like kicking and punching each other really hard. I was like, “What are you doing?” They’re like, “We’re playing karate.” I was like, “No.” (LAUGHTER) “That’s not an okay game.” (PAUSE) Yeah. (inaudible at 00:02:31) So like... Yeah. Like if you guys want to do this, I can show you how to do it. But there’s no punching. You can’t do that. I’m not exactly sure how their parents will feel about that offer. But whatever. You know, like they don’t have any toy guns at all sort of thing. The parents like don’t make a big deal of it. But also (inaudible) [00:02:59]
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:03:01) Tae Kwon Do.
CLIENT: Oh yeah. It’s like the only sport that I was at all good at and enjoyed. So I did it when I was like in fifth grade to eighth grade. I got my black belt. And then I did Shogun Karate (ph) for a while. (WHISPERING) It’s something I want, whenever there’s money and time, I want to take it back up again. (PAUSE) Yeah. Yeah. It was a good thing. (PAUSE) Yeah. My dojo was pretty small and not that many kids my own age which was good because I knew all the kids my own age in like a three mile radius and wasn’t friends with any of them. So... (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:04:03]
CLIENT: I... (PAUSE) Yeah. It was kind of an odd place but it was a good place for me to be.
THERAPIST: Cool.
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: That was also, I mean... (PAUSE) I don’t know. Not something I expected would come up. But I was sort of... I was surprised how strongly I felt about it. [00:05:07]
CLIENT: Playing karate is not... Like you don’t do that. “You just don’t do that guys.” It was like for me like... So I stopped doing shotokan (ph) after about six months. My roommate... One of my roommates did it. And it was a nice enough group of people and... (SIGH) But I stopped doing it because the environment was really not geared toward taking care of one another’s safety. And I had a problem with that. You know, like people would get mad at each other and try to hurt each other. And like that’s the opposite of point, kind of... Like, “I’m not going to be in this...” And also the way they did kicks was like knee injuries waiting to happen. It was fucked up. Like it was not a good system. But partly not a good system at all. But more than that, it wasn’t a place I felt safe. [00:06:09]
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: The doctor called and had a recommendation. So...
THERAPIST: Good.
CLIENT: Either James or Dr. Smith’s (ph) going to get in contact with her.
THERAPIST: Do you know who it is?
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: I think... (PAUSE) So like... (SIGH) You know, I’m mostly doing pretty well these days. And sometimes I’m not doing well at night or I like cry or whatever. [00:07:05]
CLIENT: And (SIGH) (PAUSE) James kind of says or has said repeatedly, “It’s okay for you to be sad. You don’t have to hide that from me.” And I sort of feel like, “No, no. That’s not the case at all.” (LAUGHTER) “I know you want that to be the case. You really want that to be the case. But like that’s... (PAUSE) That is not what I have learned.” (PAUSE) I am scared about that. [00:08:05]
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: But it’s also like... (PAUSE) It’s not like I’m shutting down on purpose. I just... (SIGH) (PAUSE) You know, home has also become a place where I need to keep a handle on myself.
(PAUSE) [00:09:00]
CLIENT: That’s definitely like the path of least resistance. It is much easier to (inaudible at 00:09:31) until it becomes not... (LAUGHTER) Yeah. I don’t...
(PAUSE) [00:10:00]
CLIENT: (SIGH) It just feels unsustainable and I don’t know... (PAUSE) I don’t know how much of that feeling is just any time I am doing okay it would be unsustainable and how much of that has to do with the situation.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:10:35)
CLIENT: I’m sorry?
THERAPIST: (inaudible)
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.
(PAUSE) [00:11:00]
CLIENT: And then sometimes it’s very nice to be married to him. Most of the time it is. (LAUGHTER) Yesterday we were invited to... A friend from William & Mary is living in Denver who is like planning this big Fourth of July thing. We were invited to that. I told James about it a little excitedly. Later on, he was like, “Do you want to go to these things?” I was like, “I want to go to the cookout the undergraduates are having.” I thought about it and I realized the only thing we could actually go for was the watching the fireworks part of it. I remembered that I hate that. I hate being around all those people. And that was really awful for me. And I was like, “Oh, thank God.” (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: You know, it’s nice to be married to somebody who shares my core values of staying out of crowds. (LAUGHTER) [00:12:01]
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: Ben Watts (ph) was... This is guy who is having the Fourth of July party. His catch phrase or the catch phrase that Candace (ph) and I had for him for a long time was... Did I tell you this? Was “Ben Watts ruins everything.” (LAUGHTER) Once he like stepped on Candace’s foot when they were playing basketball once and like broke her foot and she had to have like surgery and she had to be in a wheelchair for a while. She had to... Like she can never wear high heels again. It’s become this ongoing her foot is never going to get better thing.
THERAPIST: Wow. [00:13:05]
CLIENT: Which I know... And then like we had a party once and he like threw up like all over my armchair, like all over it. (LAUGHTER) It was terrible. I was elsewhere for most of it. None of it... The thing is he’s like this lovely kind of feckless person that just like courts disaster and I don’t know how. So I’m fond of him. And then like Candace fell desperately in love with him and he was, just didn’t handle it well. That was really where the “Ben Watts ruins everything” comes from. (LAUGHTER) Like she got over it eventually but he didn’t help. He’s just kind of young, you know, in a lot of ways. [00:14:07]
CLIENT: You know, it was this thing where they were best friend and neither of them could get to the point of being like, “We need to not be around each other for a while. Like this isn’t helping Candace.” (PAUSE) Apparently I had coffee with him when Candace visited in the spring.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: But I don’t remember.
(PAUSE) [00:15:00]
CLIENT: I don’t know what to do with James. Like I don’t know how to help him at this point.
(PAUSE) [00:16:00]
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:16:19) kind of what you want to be talking about but yesterday was really worried.
CLIENT: Yeah. Today it feels like... (SIGH) I want to talk about it but I don’t know what to say. I feel like I keep starting to talk about it but I’m drifting off into thinking about other things or nothing.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:16:41)
CLIENT: Mentally.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Got her foot broke and her heart broke and you’re feeling like (inaudible)
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:17:05]
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: And I think it makes you feel fragile or delicate in talking with me about this stuff going on between you and James. (PAUSE) Yesterday when you were pretty...
CLIENT: Yeah.
(PAUSE) [00:18:00]
CLIENT: It’s like even when I come and say I don’t feel like my marriage is in a good place and I’m not happy with it, I’m also very protective of the way that people, including you, see James and I or like see the relationship. [00:19:03]
CLIENT: I guess I have a lot riding on (inaudible at 00:19:11)
(PAUSE) [00:20:00]
THERAPIST: I have a feeling, I’m not even sure why, that...
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: ...it... Yeah.
CLIENT: Sorry. I just had a thought. I don’t want to say (inaudible at 00:20:19) being able to say, “I have this feeling and I don’t know where it’s coming from. But we’re going to track it anyway.” (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)
CLIENT: This is something I understand.
THERAPIST: That sort of doesn’t feel right to tell me all... I mean, this is your marriage. This is the two of you. And to sort of include or invite me into what’s going on or closely to how things are between you feels inappropriate or crossing the boundary or something like that. [00:20:57]
CLIENT: Yes. That makes a lot of sense especially when he’s not here, you know, because it’s just me and I feel like I have to like do him justice in some way and I don’t know if I can do that. But also I feel like, you know, pretty sort of like the premise of our getting married is that the two of us are a team always. Like that’s it. Like, you know... (PAUSE) Like...
(PAUSE) [00:22:00]
CLIENT: Our primary loyalty is to each other and we sort of... Yeah. So it feels disloyal to invite you in that way or... (PAUSE) Yeah. Strange and uncomfortable also.
THERAPIST: Like too intimate?
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: Maybe. (PAUSE) But it’s more that like that invites a kind of intimacy only that I lose the corresponding intimacy with James. [00:22:59]
CLIENT: I don’t know where that’s coming from. (PAUSE) I’m not sure how I’m so idealistic about marriage after being married for three years. But I think I am. So...
(PAUSE) [00:24:00]
THERAPIST: I... (PAUSE) I wonder if you’re also worried...
(PAUSE) [00:25:00]
THERAPIST: (inaudible) in some fashion. Like that I would take advantage or do something that would not be helpful to you were you to talk to me about those things that are going on between you and James.
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: I think what I worry about more is that...
(PAUSE) [00:26:00]
CLIENT: ...that you are... (PAUSE) Yeah. That your role is to take care of me and be an advocate for me and that that’s not always going to be the same thing as taking care of like me and James and... (PAUSE) Yeah. I guess I worry that (PAUSE) either you will kind of like unwittingly hurt us or like hurt our relationship in some way or that you won’t think that it’s important as I think it is. [00:27:03]
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: Or that you will (SIGH) be disappointed or angry with me for thinking that that is our primary important task, relationship.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: We’re not having the same priorities.
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: And that I won’t appreciate the primary importance of the relationship to you.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:28:11]
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:28:15)
CLIENT: (inaudible) really upset with myself. Like lying to myself about the relationship or wanting to put my own, put what I want to do of like what’s best for us and kind of pushing that on you.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) I think it’s probably sort of both.
(PAUSE) [00:29:00]
CLIENT: And I keep thinking about Dan (ph) and (PAUSE) I feel like it is maybe not good for me to (PAUSE) be close to people outside my parish. [00:30:03]
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: I’m pissed off at him. I’m really pissed off at him. Not just... You know, not all the time. But it comes up pretty regularly. (PAUSE) (SIGH)
(PAUSE) [00:31:00]
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I worry that... (PAUSE) I guess I feel so much like this loyalty to be talking about these things (inaudible at 00:31:35) (SIGH)
THERAPIST: It’s because of (inaudible)
(PAUSE) [00:32:00]
CLIENT: Even though like I didn’t, I didn’t ever, ever talk about Dan without being upset with James in some way. Like (inaudible at 00:32:21)
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: You know, and like he talked to me some about his marriage and I wasn’t comfortable with it. So I tried to shut it down.
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: Is... (SIGH)
(PAUSE) [00:33:00]
THERAPIST: I don’t really know that much about it. But you did talk to Dan about how you felt (inaudible)
CLIENT: Yeah.
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: I think you want it to be easier with James than it sometimes is.
CLIENT: That was one of the things, that was one of the things that was (inaudible at 00:33:51) something that drew Dan and I together and made us closer. But like he knew what I was talking about when I talked about being depressed.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:33:59]
CLIENT: Like I knew what he was talking about. (inaudible at 0:34:11) Yeah.
THERAPIST: (inaudible) at least to you it feels like James is not being very understanding in some very important ways about your depression (PAUSE) and in keeping with that (inaudible at 00:34:43) hard to talk about (inaudible) talking to me...
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: ...about that and especially about how that is creating difficulties between you and James. And it feels disloyal to you to talk about that.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Because there’s a way in which that feels like you’re getting something from me that you want from him and don’t have and you’re upset about that.
CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. Exactly that. It makes me feel pretty awful.
THERAPIST: Oh. I see.
(PAUSE) [00:36:00]
THERAPIST: And I guess that (inaudible at 00:36:21) horrible about that is to you that feels like putting your own needs above what’s good for the two of you or good for the relationship. Talking to me...
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: ...in part because (inaudible) feels horrible to you because it feels like doing things, doing something that puts what you need above what you think is best for the two of you. [00:36:59]
CLIENT: Yes. I guess I feel like... (PAUSE) I guess like I’m just making it harder and harder for James and I to like be close or be together. (PAUSE) And also it’s like I feel bad about I should be able to talk to James about these things (inaudible at 00:38:07) You know, but I don’t... [00:38:11]
THERAPIST: To be there when you’re depressed?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: Yeah. And like a... It feels like a sick thing to need.
(PAUSE) [00:39:00]
THERAPIST: Well... (PAUSE) I feel like I kind of have half of something to say about that. I’ll say the half that I have and maybe that (inaudible at 00:39:21) (LAUGHTER) Which is like except it doesn’t work that way...
CLIENT: I know.
THERAPIST: ...in that, in general, I think you may not remember a lot of this (inaudible) that (PAUSE) you’re being more able to articulate and talk about these things makes it easier to talk to James about them. [00:40:11]
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: To understand sort of how things that he’s saying affect you and sort of what matters in the conversation and how to explain something to him or describe what you need help with and what he’s doing...
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: ...or to make him feel kind of... Like he can listen and not be as burdened having to take care of you if he knows you’re talking to me about it. Well, my... [00:41:01]
THERAPIST: The only thing about what I’m saying is that I’m not trying to (inaudible at 00:41:09) so therefore what you’re saying is illogical (inaudible)
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) But what I kind of get is like so why... I wonder why you’re thinking of it in the way that you are...
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: ...as opposed to this other way given that, in some ways, anyway it seems like your experience is closer, I think, to the way that I’m talking about. In some ways, clearly, it must not be or you (inaudible at 00:41:41) I can’t reconcile that which is the half I’m kind of troubled with.
(PAUSE) [00:42:00]
CLIENT: I think it’s like (PAUSE) with... (SIGH) (PAUSE) Like the things that I need that I find here are partly like being able to talk about it, understand it, you know, like understanding how it works better, being able to tell James things, like being able to (SIGH) being able to see it more clearly and articulate it more clearly to other people. But like it’s also just like, you know, maybe the more I feel like a bigger deal for me is like the being hurt part.
(PAUSE) [00:43:00]
CLIENT: (CRYING) (WHISPERING)
THERAPIST: I think I follow. (PAUSE) Maybe because of what you’re saying.
CLIENT: I’m sorry?
THERAPIST: Maybe because of what you’re saying.
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: Sorry.
CLIENT: No, no. I was just thinking, “There probably could be a more (inaudible) conversation but I don’t know what...” (inaudible at 00:43:45) (LAUGHTER)
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: That’s the part...
CLIENT: But like the things that I (SIGH) the things that I am being hurt about are awful. You know, I don’t know why I need to talk about them. Like I don’t want you to hear these things. I don’t want anybody to hear these things. I want it to go away. But I also don’t want them to go away. Or like I don’t want to have to deal with them on my own. But when I feel badly about that because that’s just asking somebody else to deal with these really terrible frightening things with me.
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: Well, we need to stop.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: See you on Monday. I will be (inaudible)
CLIENT: Okay. [00:45:07]
END TRANSCRIPT
