TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: I’m sorry, I realized that on Tuesday, I see two people named Tanya on Tuesdays and I think I sent you a text, iPad text message for both of you.
CLIENT: Did you not send the one to the other person?
THERAPIST: Correct.
CLIENT: Oh, I’m sorry. (laughs) Yeah, I didn’t reply to the other one.
THERAPIST: That’s alright.
CLIENT: I wondered about that.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But, okay.
THERAPIST: It didn’t make any sense. I imagine that’s what you assumed it was.
CLIENT: Yeah, well I assumed that the first one was to me -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: and that the second one was to everybody else that day, and I was on the list of everybody.
THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Right.
CLIENT: But, I was like, “These are the people I’m seeing right away.” Anyway, yeah, I feel bad for the other Tanya.
THERAPIST: [It’s okay.] (ph)
CLIENT: Okay. So when you get sick, my impulse is very strongly to be like, “Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?” And then I’m like, “I probably shouldn’t do that.” And so I just shut it down. Anyway, so are you feeling better? [00:01:18]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Okay. Good.
THERAPIST: I imagine you might have felt that strongly on Wednesday -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: when I was still sick. (laughs) But, anyway, [I went home] (ph) in the middle of the day.
CLIENT: (laughs) Oh, I’m so sorry. (laughs)
THERAPIST: That’s okay.
CLIENT: Well, I was sort of clear on Monday that that’s where things were going also. So I don’t think that week -
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) James is completely miserable when he’s sick. It’s very sad. Or I mean like, I don’t know, he gets incapacitated more than I do. Like it’s rare for me to get sick enough that I can’t just be like, “Well, got to go to work anyway.” Like, “Onward we go.” [00:02:19]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And James will just be in bed sick.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know, it’s like part of him really wants me to take care of him, but it would be better for me not to take care of him but for me to do the wrong thing. And I’ll see he’s sick so he’s kind of whiney and kind of doesn’t really know what he wants. Yeah. (pause) So I’m really tired.
THERAPIST: And it’s like also, a little comment here, being that your impulse was to sort of want to take care of me and check in about how I’m doing -
CLIENT: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
THERAPIST: But then it felt like you shouldn’t do that and that’s bad.
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it feels like that’s not That’s not what my role is here. [00:03:28]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)
THERAPIST: And the fact that you’re even mentioning is not all that comfortable.
CLIENT: No, not really. Yeah. I can see my shoulders go up. I can feel my shoulders go up. Yeah, I just (pause)
THERAPIST: I guess what strikes me is the sense of precariousness. And that seems, not for the same reasons, but similar with me and with James, as far as you describe. Like, I’ve got to do it right. And this sort of a strong impulse and push to want to help and be there and take care of.
CLIENT: Mm hm.
THERAPIST: But it’s dangerous.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And it could lead to me falling apart or something. [00:04:38]
CLIENT: Yeah. And it feels very much like stepping outside of, I mean both with you and with James, the way our relationship normally goes. So what I’m really supposed to be doing and so, yeah, I feel like I’m not going to get it right. (pause) Yeah. (pause) (sigh) But when I’m talking about it it’s like (pause)
You know, I get that I come to therapy to talk about myself but then when, then it turns to even asking how you are doing into talking about myself and that feels not right. (pause) [00:06:11]
THERAPIST: Well, I think there’s also the impression of a kind of limitation in me there. Which is that I wouldn’t be able to see it both ways. What I mean is as, you know, something like kind and caring and reflective of things about you.
CLIENT: Yeah. Hm. Sorry. (pause) No, it’s just if I stop and think about I’m like, “Well, yeah, of course you would be able to see it both ways.” And it’s like, I don’t know, not having faith in you or something.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:07:15)
CLIENT: (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: (laughs) Well. (laughs) (pause) Okay, I’ve got to ask. Was that kid your son? (pause)
THERAPIST: [I don’t know what to say to that.] (laughs)
CLIENT: (laughs) [00:08:10]
(long pause)
THERAPIST: Well, what were your thoughts?
CLIENT: Well, right there, immediately panicking that I shouldn’t have asked.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: You know, so I’m trying to calm myself down.
THERAPIST: I see. Like maybe you’re about to get in trouble.
CLIENT: Mm. (pause) Yeah. You know, It feels like something that might be intrusive. I don’t know. So I’ve been talking I feel like when I It is interesting to me that when I talk to you about working with these kids, you seem to really know what I’m talking about. [00:09:29]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So. [Tired of his food.] (ph)
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: “Why don’t grownups ever do things that are fun?” (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs) (inaudible at 00:09:47)
CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) So I spent probably way to long trying to convince him that sitting at dinner and talking to people was actually really fun. And he was like, “No.” (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: He was like, “That’s terrible.” (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: “I hate that.” (laughs) Because it’s one of the major protracted vowels (ph), like “When you sit at the dinner table you can talk to your sister, but playing physical games with your sister is not what we do at the dinner table. Like you sit and you talk and you eat, and then you can go like beat each other up.” Well not beat each other up, they don’t actually They are actually really good in terms of they don’t have much aggression problem.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: It’s really nice not to have to deal with. But all of their games involve touching each other in some way, or they’re just rough and tumble. And basically none that are entirely appropriate for the dinner table. (laughs) So I was like, “Yeah, you know like I came to this party the Fourth of July and all the girls were sitting and holding plates and talking to each other. And he was like, “Yeah.” [00:11:15]
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: (laughs)
THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:11:20)
CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) I’m like, “That’s what they do for fun.”
THERAPIST: Uh huh. Was there like laser tag or something?
CLIENT: (laughs) Well the kids have the pool out.
THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Yeah.
CLIENT: So, you know, that was fun for them.
THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: She also right after lunch when They’re actually really good about cleaning up at the end of the day, with some pushing, but they do it all themselves. But after lunch it’s just like there is not a clear space of floor anywhere downstairs.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know, it’s just like chaos, complete chaos. I feel like part of being a kid should be able to be to make as much as you want and then clean it up. But he was like, “I learned so many new words.” And I was like, “Oh, like what?” “Chaos.” (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: I’ll bet you did. (laughs) [00:12:36]
THERAPIST: [That sounds right.] (ph) Yeah, I think you’re wanting to be a little bit more rough and tumble with me and wondering what you’re sort of table manners should be. Like telling me that your impulse was to take care of me or asking me if that was my kid.
CLIENT: Yeah. You know, and whereas Keith (ph) does it until you tell him not to and then he does it some more until you tell him not again. I don’t do that. (pause) Yeah.
THERAPIST: Right. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That wasn’t my son, but I do see, I used to see more kids [as I do these days.] (ph)
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: That’s why I have toys around. But I used to work more with children. [00:13:41]
CLIENT: Okay. I imagine you’re really good with kids.
THERAPIST: Oh, thank you. (pause)
CLIENT: I remember I really liked my therapist when I was a kid.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And I saw the same woman for years. Like I don’t have the impression that she was terribly effective.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) She did have a lot of toys so, you know, [there was that.] (ph)
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause) [00:14:44]
CLIENT: The magazine, or the magazines in the waiting room -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: they had a bunch of children’s magazines too and I got so frustrated because they just never had enough. Like I was there and just read all their like Highlights for Children. I’d just read one a day.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And they would come out like once a week or once a month.
THERAPIST: They couldn’t keep up. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah. So you know nursery rhymes? I hated that poem, “Mary, Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow.” Like I would just cry when I heard it when I was a kid. Now that I say that I feel that it’s maybe a little bit out of proportion.
So Keith (ph) and Selena (ph) had a set of Mother Goose flashcards or something. And so I was going through some of the poems with them and that one came up. And Keith (ph) told their Mom about that night. He was like, “There’s a poem like Tanya.” And she’s like, “Oh.” And she asked me about it. She was like, “Were you quite contrary as a child?” [00:16:13]
And I was like, (whispers) “What do I say here?” (laughs) So I was like, “Well, actually I was really depressed for a while when I was like five or six so, yes, I was very grumpy.” And she was like, “Oh, what happened?” I said, “Well, I “ Well, she asked like, “Did you get treatment for it.” And I said, “Well, I saw a therapist but nobody ever really acknowledge it.”
That’s a really roundabout way of saying, “I “ I’ve been wondering what was going on? Like, as always, because I go through phases of this, but do people know that it was this bad for me? (strained voice) Like, I definitely remember trying very hard not to let my therapist know that things were bad. Like I didn’t want to tell her about it. But, (pause) (sigh) I don’t know. [00:17:26]
(long pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah, I wonder if seeing what things are like for these three kids is sort of striking in certain ways or raises questions that would be sort of, yeah, they’re not afraid to, you know, be a little bad and sort of put themselves, or put themselves out there in the way that both of their parents are really pretty attentive to them.
And I would think it’s pretty hard to imagine how anyone of the three of them could feel the way that you did for so long and not get noticed pretty quickly. [00:18:58]
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It’s impossible.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And so then I think about, what must my care have been like?
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: What kind of parents were my parents?
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
(long pause) [00:19:57]
CLIENT: You know, it’s like they’re really good about cleaning up, but that’s because I remind them when it’s time to clean up and do it with them and, you know, help them with it. And say, “Okay, now really.” And say like, “Okay, well, do you want to clean up before dinner or after dinner.”
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: And sometimes they say after dinner and that’s a really bad idea (laughs) because Selena (ph) pretty much wants to go to sleep after dinner and she’s like just not, sometimes She’s three and sometimes she’s just too tired to clean up. And that’s okay.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know, and (pause) I don’t remember my Dad ever doing any of that with me. Ever. I just remember I was having constant fights because I didn’t clean up. And it’s so obvious to me now what they’re capable of and what they’re not capable of. [00:21:20]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You know, and they’re much younger than I was at that point, but I think the principle holds.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: (pause) You know, they know So like Selena (ph) has to be reminded every time to wash her hands after she goes to the bathroom. Like to the point where I have to stand there with her while she washes her hands because life is too short. You know? (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: (laughs) And she’s like, “Keith’s having fun in the other room. I want to go to bed.” And I’m like barring the door and I’m like “Nope.”
THERAPIST: (laughs) Right.
CLIENT: (laughs)
THERAPIST: At least you don’t have to worry about where she’s going to aim.
CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. I’m thankful. (laughs) But I’ve got, I probably have like fifteen or twenty fillings in my teeth because I knew I was supposed to brush my teeth, but nobody checked to see if I did it.
THERAPIST: Yeah. I think that’s not unusual, but it is (inaudible at 00:22:44).
CLIENT: Mm. I think I’ve heard that. I don’t know if you said or somebody else did.
THERAPIST: [I’ve heard it.] (ph) (pause)
CLIENT: (crying) Yeah, so it’s like I didn’t understand what was wrong with me that I couldn’t do these things. And now I’m sort of being hit with, “No, there wasn’t really anything wrong with me. It’s just that’s just kids.” So. (sniffles) But I also I don’t understand You know, in some ways I am a pretty exceptional caretaker, like I really am. But that’s not, you know this stuff I’m talking about isn’t really outside the range of normal to make sure that a child washes her hands. [00:23:57]
THERAPIST: Uh huh. Right.
CLIENT: Or get kids into the habit of picking up at the end of the day.
THERAPIST: Right. Those are not the things that make you exceptional that you sort of are doing those things.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean I think So last week and the week before, I sort of, there were like three days in which Selena (ph) was just super whiney and super tough. And eventually I realized, “Oh, it’s because she’s not getting any attention.” You know, I don’t think most people would notice that.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Or would sit down and say, “What is different here.”
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But I can’t (pause) It’s like I’ve been angry at my parents for this for so long but I still I can’t construct a picture of them with small children like failing them in the way that they failed me. I can’t make it, I can’t see it. [00:25:29]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Because it’s just not that hard. (pause) You know, I’m only with these kids thirty hours a week. And, dear God, like I know them so well. You know?
(long pause) (sigh) (long pause) [00:27:20]
CLIENT: And some things I can see. Like, you know, I can give my Dad a pass on having spaghetti for dinner four nights a week.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Like that I can really see where that came from -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: In terms of he’s a single parent and has unpredictable hours and it’s really fucking hard to cook when there are kids around. (laughs) (pause) I don’t know. But it’s like if nobody saw how bad it was for me for so long, how could that have happened? And if they did see it, why, it’s not just that nothing really got done about it, it’s like nothing got said about it. [00:28:42]
Like nobody said, “We know that this is happening for you.” It was like I went to therapy for years but, you know, I went to therapy because my parents got divorced. And you would think eventually that would come to an end. So presumably I was in therapy because the therapist thought I still needed to be there. If so, why didn’t anybody say anything to me about it? (pause)
I thought I was still there because of the divorce, like years later.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
(long pause) [00:29:50]
CLIENT: Yeah, I remember the therapist as being very kind and I remember it being very kind but I didn’t need her or rely on her or trust her. She was just like somebody else who was in my life who meant well but didn’t really have much of an idea.
THERAPIST: Yeah. And what was also (inaudible at 00:30:37), or unable (inaudible).
CLIENT: Yeah. Hm.
THERAPIST: Your gym teacher or the occasional babysitter.
CLIENT: Yeah. (sigh)
(long pause)
CLIENT: On the plus side, so James and I, I guess these were several years ago, we were talking about getting married and talking about what we wanted out of our lives and talking about having kids. The thing I’ve always been afraid is that I was going to pass it right along. [00:31:55]
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: I’m less worried about that now.
THERAPIST: Good.
CLIENT: You know, because I know that I’m going to notice.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: At the very least. (pause) Yeah. (pause) You know, and some things do It’s like Keith (ph) is paralyzingly perfectionistic. And it’s really difficult to see. Like I don’t see that coming from his parents. Like his Mom has talked to me about how she’s worried about it and she’s been trying to coach him out of it sort of thing.
THERAPIST: Well aren’t they (inaudible at 00:32:56)
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess so.
THERAPIST: I don’t I appreciate that it’s clearly not because they’re -
CLIENT: They don’t think it’s good.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Okay. I can see that that like (cross talking at 00:33:21)
THERAPIST: I can see how it’s not obvious that they’re doing things that actually promote it. You know?
CLIENT: Mm hm.
THERAPIST: Like they’re saying they don’t think it’s good but they’re, you know, making him rewrite his paragraph for school seventeen times, or something.
CLIENT: Yeah. No, they’re not doing that. But, yeah, they are a lot to live up to. (pause) But I beat him in soccer the other day. I don’t think it’s good for him to win all the time.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Well, after a few soccer games he was like, “I’m better than you at soccer.” (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: It was sort of like, “Oh, really?”
THERAPIST: How old is he again?
CLIENT: He’s five.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: They’re both remarkably athletic.
THERAPIST: Oh, really?
CLIENT: Yeah. No, he’s going to be a badass.
THERAPIST: Really.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: He’s going to be better than me in about three years.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: I mean I suck at soccer but -
THERAPIST: Right. [00:34:25]
CLIENT: So, and it was, you know, it was like a really good game and he was having so much fun. We kind of both were having so much fun, and then I scored the last goal and he was kind of like you could see him just dissolve. And so I gave him a big hug and I said, “I know it’s really hard not to win. And you’re doing a really good job. This was a really good game.” So he bounced back.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And like as we were leaving he was like, “Why do you think you won?” (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: I was like, “Well, you know, it happens sometimes. Sometimes one person wins and sometimes another person wins.” I felt a little bit horrible, to be honest. I was like, “This was really a bad caretaking decision.” (laughs) But I feel like better to get used to the idea now than have to run up against it when he starts playing against his peers. [00:35:35]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: If he’s like, “I think I’m better than you,” to his friend, that’s not going to go well. (laughs)
(long pause)
CLIENT: It is hard to deal with the fact that (sigh) (pause) my childhood is over. (strained voice) Like I am never going to have been taken care of like that. (pause)
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 37:02)
CLIENT: (coughs) Sorry. Swallowed wrong. (coughs) Thanks. (coughs) (pause) I have [no way to talk to my Dad] (ph) about this. Yeah. I’m sort of interested in hearing what he would have to say. I sort of want to say like, “What did you think was going on for me when I was a kid?”
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: But (pause) I don’t I want to say, “I don’t know how to do that without making him feel bad.” I guess sort of like, by definition, there’s not really a way to do that without making him feel bad. [00:38:24]
(long pause)
CLIENT: Yeah. My Mom, it doesn’t surprise me at all, actually. I mean, and not just because I didn’t see her very much. You know, she’s just not really a noticing sort of person. (pause) You know, as I’ve said before, I don’t think she has ever been able to see me other than as a version of herself. So, you know, and sometimes it’s perfectly natural if I’m depressed, so was she. It’s as it should be. [00:39:49]
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)
CLIENT: I talk with her now and she wants to swap depression stories.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And part of me really, yes, it is nice to talk to somebody who has been there. But I also feel like, “Well, you got the daughter you wanted. I guess that’s nice for you.”
(very long pause) [00:43:09]
THERAPIST: Well, we should stop for now. Also, it occurs to me that I don’t think I mentioned, I’m out I’m in next week and I’m in Monday and Tuesday the following week, but I’m out Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So that’s like August seventh, eighth and ninth.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: Alright, we’re also set for seven thirty on Wednesday.
CLIENT: Okay. Thanks. Have a good weekend.
THERAPIST: Thanks. You too, Tanya.
END TRANSCRIPT
