Client "Ma", Session August 05, 2013: Client discusses some childhood memories and how she feels the need to act a certain way so people don't think she's close to suicide again. trial
TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
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CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:00:07)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: The (inaudible at 00:00:11) Yeah. It actually was standing up and then it toppled and spilled the water all over the place. (inaudible)
CLIENT: Alright. I love sunflowers.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: We used to grow them. I worked at an organic vegetable farm for a couple of summers in college, like the year after I got out of high school and then right when I went to college (inaudible at 00:00:49) That was a crazy job. [00:00:57]
(PAUSE)
Like I learned a whole lot and, you know, it's one of those serious work and you work real hard and I got paid well and so it was really nice. But... (PAUSE) I don't know. It was just... (PAUSE) Mostly it was like seeing more than anywhere else, more clearly than anywhere else like the kind of enormous disparity between the like wealthy and poor in the town I grew up in, the area I grew up in. So like the (PAUSE) woman, like the woman who owns the farm or the nursery or company did like gardening and also landscaping. [00:01:59]
And then there was like a flower shop attached to it. And (inaudible) the kind of second in command where both from like West Coast (ph) wealthy families and the clientele was all (inaudible) obviously like very, very, very wealthy families. And like I don't think they made any money but they didn't have to because it was subsidized by like the Walmart Corporation whose farm was there. And she just, you know, liked the idea of having an organic vegetable garden in her neighborhood so like she made it happen.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And then like... (PAUSE) But the people who worked there were kind of a combination of like friends of Carla's (ph) kids, Carla being the second in command, so like people who went to this like fancy private school with me and then like very, very poor families from the area and like a lot of like Mexican immigrants. [00:03:07]
Like that was the make-up. And, you know, us. It was really fun. (PAUSE) Yeah. They taught me how to cook vegetables which was never going to happen otherwise. So... (PAUSE) So when I go to the farmer's market, grown peaches or strawberries are like $6 a quart. I remember what you have to do to get a quart of strawberries and I say, "Okay. That's fine." (LAUGHTER) [00:04:05]
(PAUSE)
They're like super labor intensive. There's other things where you just kind of stick them in the ground and then they grow. But like strawberries like, they're really susceptible to bugs and if you don't spray them every second or third strawberry is bad and then just like picking them and sorting them and washing them is... (PAUSE) It's a bitch.
(PAUSE) [00:05:00]
Someone posted on Facebook a picture of just an area in like the neighborhood where I grew up in and I haven't been back there in years and I haven't thought about it that much. So beautiful, like so beautiful. You know, it's just this kind of like vista of rolling hills and mountains and, you know, it looks like... (PAUSE) It looks a lot like areas of Ireland that people vacation in of just like kind of rolling meadows. [00:06:01]
(PAUSE)
(inaudible at 00:06:21) It's fun. They have a puppy. I asked them, you know, "So, you decided to get a puppy." They were like, "Well, we went to the pet store for a rabbit." (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)
CLIENT: (inaudible) She's very cute. (PAUSE) It's really great when other people have dogs. (LAUGHTER) Or puppies specifically. [00:07:05]
(PAUSE)
I guess I thought of it because they live like (inaudible) Route 2 West like forty miles, fifty miles...
THERAPIST: Do you know the name of the town? (inaudible at 00:07:51)
CLIENT: I don't remember. Right next to... Is it Mount (ph)?
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:07:59]
CLIENT: Like they can...
THERAPIST: Past (inaudible)
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. They can like see the mountain from their backyard.
THERAPIST: Yeah. That's a lot further out.
CLIENT: Yeah. It was nice. I have this... It's surprising to me how quickly the city (inaudible) because I just feel like I never do.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But, yeah. (PAUSE) They're very, very proud of their house. They're like... The husband works for a company and the wife works with, works at like an assisted care facility with Alzheimer's patients and, you know, they're just like a real nice little couple and just really excited to like have bought a house and like showed us all that they're doing with the back yard and they're like trying to make the grass grow which is really not at all... (LAUGHTER) [00:09:03]
And like putting in shrubs and, you know, like the first year that you start a garden, all the shrubs are this big. (LAUGHTER) And it's really nice. You know, we ended up kind of talking about families a lot and... So their house... I've been there a couple times I guess and they're always... It feels like nobody lives there because there's just like nothing on the walls and like nothing anywhere. There's furniture and stuff. But whenever we've been there it's just like every counter is bare. There's just nothing there. And at some point in the conversation, it came out that like Henry's (ph) mother is a hoarder and he's like, "That's why we don't put things on the walls." (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: Oh wow. [00:09:55]
CLIENT: Yeah. (LAUGHTER) So... Yeah. (PAUSE) And then talking about some other friends of ours who are from the same program and who also live in the Denver area...
THERAPIST: These are people from the manor (ph)?
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I think this other couple, Stephen (ph) and Jenna (ph), I think Stephen... (SIGH) I think he's a post-doc at Harvard but I'm not sure. But they are like... The house is like a wreck every time. They have two kids under the age of two so like they're that also. (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) You get a new appreciation for...
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Yes. But like even before they had a kid, there's just like dog fur everywhere, the house is a wreck, like... But also like they're like two hours late for everything. [00:11:11]
Or they used to be half and hour late for everything. Now they're like... Yeah.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:11:15)
CLIENT: So we were talking about it and it clearly bothers Henry and Mason (ph). But Mason was like, "You know, I think that's just how Jenna grew up." And I was like, "Well, it makes sense because like that's how I grew up. So their house doesn't look messy to me at all." Or like I sort of notice it because most people's houses are like that now but like when my apartment gets there, I don't notice it. (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: I had to have like a last minute cleaning spree before James (ph) got home to be like... You know, I don't want him to be afraid to leave me alone which, if he saw what I did to the apartment... (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: He would be. [00:12:01]
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, he already is afraid to leave me alone. But, you know... I feel like the trail of dishes would not help. (PAUSE) Yeah. He is really afraid. I don't... (SIGH) And, you know, considering I spent like two weeks a week ago talking to you about how I want to kill myself, I don't really know what to say to make him not be afraid anymore. I don't... (PAUSE) Yeah.
(PAUSE) [00:13:00]
But like it colors the way we talk to each other and like... (PAUSE) I feel like several times lately, he's snapped at me or responded in a way that I thought was unreasonable to something that I said or like I almost sort of starting talking out loud or maybe like complaining about my life or, you know, but like saying, "Hey," saying I miss doing Bible or things like that and he'll like respond in a way that is completely out of...
THERAPIST: I see. [00:13:57]
CLIENT: ...out of proportion. And it sort of throws me off and then I get mad at him and then we talk about it and it's like, "Oh no. You're just really scared." You know, because everything I say that's not complete contentment could be the next crisis is coming.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And, you know, most of the things I say that are complete contentment could also be the next crisis is coming. He doesn't know. You know, I don't know either so I'm not helping with that. I feel like I'm sort of starting to get to the point where I'm not hunkered down panicking about it...
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: ...and... But that's not like a rational thing. That's just a learning to live with it. [00:15:05]
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: We used to go through vacuum cleaners with like one every six months or so because there's just dog hair everywhere. Like I don't...
THERAPIST: You mean growing up or... [00:16:01]
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I have no idea how that happened. I don't know what most people with dogs do. Presumably most people with dogs don't have their vacuum cleaner break every time they use it. (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But it doesn't seem clear to me. We'd have like... They'd have (inaudible at 00:16:25) dinners at our house once a month and so that was like when things had to be cleaned up because people were coming over. You know, sometimes it was more success than others. (PAUSE) At one point, I remember one of the, one of the members of the vestry... Because it would be potluck. So my dad would have like some entree. It was usually salmon because he knows how to cook salmon really, really well. [00:16:59]
And then other people would bring side dishes. And I remember one got so frustrated with us because we didn't have a microwave that like she just gave us a microwave for Christmas. (LAUGHTER) She was like, "Here. We need to be able to heat things up." And it was like life changing for me. It was like, "What?" You don't have to stand in front of a stove for twenty minutes every time you want to heat something up. I don't understand how you have kids without a microwave. Like they just can't wait a half an hour. I mean, they can but...
THERAPIST: Right. Nobody's happy.
CLIENT: No. (LAUGHTER)
(PAUSE) [00:18:00]
I mean, it was sort of chaos. I learned how to do my own laundry when I was probably like eleven or twelve. Basically the time I started caring about my clothes because that was the only way that I could be sure that like it would make it through the laundry intact. (PAUSE) Yeah. (PAUSE) I... We were coming back... I don't know how this came up. But James was like, "I don't see the purpose of roller skating. Why do people roller skate?" [00:19:01]
I have no idea... Actually because we were driving home from that and he said this out of context. But I remember I used to roller skate in the house all the time, like all the time.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: I totally wasn't allowed to. It wasn't... People weren't okay with it but, you know, I was always by myself a good portion of the time so I would do that because there weren't like sidewalks anywhere.
THERAPIST: I see. This was like... You were how old?
CLIENT: Like eight to eleven sort of age. You know, I (inaudible at 00:19:43) always. (LAUGHTER) Yeah.
(PAUSE) [00:20:00]
There was one time that... So the reason that Papa was really good at cooking fish was because he's lived in Canada for a couple of years. So like that was what he ate for a couple of years as far as I could tell. So he before one vestry dinner was like, "You know, I heard... I did this once before where you can cook fish in a dishwasher. Like you don't put the soap... You like run it through once without the soap but the fish steam cooks in it." And so we did it and it works really well and it was really delicious except there was like this jet of water that came up from the bottom. (LAUGHTER) And so there was this like hole.
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) [00:21:09]
CLIENT: So he served it and he just put a lemon in the middle. (LAUGHTER) And like, yeah... (PAUSE) We also inevitably had, when Amanda (ph) and I were home alone, had run out of dishwashing detergent and decided to put like dishwashing liquid in instead of see whether that would work. I don't know if you've ever done this but...
THERAPIST: Oh you mean the stuff that you wash dishes with (inaudible)
CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know if you've ever done that. But it's hilarious. (LAUGHTER) There's like four inches of bubbles on the kitchen floor like everywhere. Like it just doesn't stop.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:22:05]
CLIENT: Yeah. I think we got it mostly cleaned up before anybody got home. (PAUSE) But then we knew not to do it.
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: I... (PAUSE) Something about it seems (PAUSE) can be hard for you to sort of know what you're, what sort of perspective you have on things that happened growing up...
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:23:11]
THERAPIST: ...and that maybe, I think you may feel like a bit of a wish for me to let you know (inaudible at 00:23:19) I have (inaudible) or whatever.
CLIENT: No I think that's right.
THERAPIST: But I think you're using this saying that also like (inaudible at 00:23:39) what do I make of that?
CLIENT: Yeah. It feels like... It feels like maybe it was strange but I also don't have... I don't have any other early picture of like anything else. [00:24:03]
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: Yeah there are sort of two things you said that kind of stuck with me. One, you grew up in the house by yourself in the skates with the book.
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Yes. That was like most summer afternoons as far as like... Like that was one of my favorite things to do.
THERAPIST: Uh huh. (PAUSE) I guess what I was thinking of (inaudible at 00:24:51) I wondered if that's what it feels like talking about stuff in the past is kind of (inaudible)
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) [00:25:01]
THERAPIST: Just kind of like, you know, by yourself in the house, kind of, a way to keep yourself occupied and unsure what to think of it. And it also seems to be something that's a bit disturbing in learning that Henry has nothing on the walls or the counters because his mother is a hoarder. I'm not quite sure what it was, probably that she was a hoarder but also that probably pretty disturbing about the way they have nothing.
CLIENT: It's like... It's a... You know, the house is built like for them. They're the first owners. And I sort of think it's horrible. It's just the opposite of where I would want to live. It just... If feels just bleak to me going inside. [00:26:11]
Like there's just nothing and all the furniture, everything's very nice but it feels like a show house. But then like, kind of talking with them about what they're doing and then also hearing about his mom, I had this incident of, oh no, this is exactly what they want. This is the way that they want it. It's not just like they don't have much imagination. This is what they want. It was kind of (inaudible at 00:26:51)
THERAPIST: How so? [00:26:55]
CLIENT: Oh, just that moment of realizing that my values are not absolute values.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: You know, it kind of made me feel like a little bit of a snob which I am a little bit of a snob but I don't always like to think that way. (PAUSE) But then also like, yeah, a little sad that like, you know, maybe Mason does want to put pictures up and Henry doesn't. I don't know. It doesn't seem like it. But... (PAUSE) I guess it's sort of like... It feels like it kind of got driven to that point. [00:28:03]
THERAPIST: Like they were held captive.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (PAUSE) But like (PAUSE) you know, maybe that looks like what they've been looking for. I don't know.
(PAUSE) [00:29:00]
Apparently Henry's parents like have a penchant for like buying them exactly the wrong gifts like all the time. So like... I don't know. They like, they were like, "Do you guys wants some windchimes? Our parents gave us some wind chimes and we can't put them up because it's really windy outside and it would drive me completely insane." (LAUGHTER) So they were discussing the aspects of regifting. [00:30:03]
I'm anti-regifting but that also ends up in me having a whole lot of stuff that I don't want. I don't know. (PAUSE) I don't know.
(PAUSE) [00:31:00]
I wonder if James like... (PAUSE) You know, for me, I have this underlying expectation (inaudible at 00:31:39) disorder everywhere. Like that will be the dominant force in our lives and poor James is sort of the opposite. I don't think he's used to not having order. I mean, you know, other than like nine years of me, which if he's not used to that by now, he should work on that. (LAUGHTER) [00:32:01]
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:32:45) I wonder if there are times where you feel like a show house.
(PAUSE) [00:33:00]
Like it seems like a metaphor we've been talking about so much lately which is (inaudible) you know, like if you feel as though you're, you've sort of put yourself together a certain way to look right to people or look like you're supposed to look. But absent... In a way, that doesn't altogether feel linked in. Like, you know, there are times when it felt like, you know, there's not much of your personality in that anyway. It's you sort of (PAUSE) like trying to hold it together a certain way or come across a certain way or like be presentable in a certain way. [00:34:19]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: When, in fact, you are cluttered with all this bad stuff that doesn't feel like...
CLIENT: It's all in the closet. (PAUSE) It's getting tough to... (PAUSE) It's getting to where I feel like I have to manage James's fear by acting like I am, you know, collected in some way. [00:35:11]
And that's not... (PAUSE) That's not really kind of like how fundamentally we've ever really interacted or to some extent like I'm also... Like I'm just not very good at keeping a front up with James and so I feel like I don't do it well enough and I don't really want to do it anyway and then we fight and, you know...
(PAUSE) [00:36:00]
I ended up riding on the train back from church last night. There was a couple who had, I think, it turned out that the wife works at MSU and the husband works at Harvard. It was just like working students. You know, so they were asking me what I was doing and asking if I was in grad school. I had to kind of... I just don't have a good like, a good story that I feel like is both telling the truth about me and what's been happening in my life in the last year or two and (SIGH) you know, shuts things down. (LAUGHTER) [00:37:05]
So I've sort of like... You know, this is like I have just introduced myself to you like first asking polite questions about each other kind of conversation. I'm just really bad at that these days. But, yeah, trying to... (PAUSE) Maybe I'm not so bad at it but I certainly dread it and, you know, find it very unpleasant.
(PAUSE) [00:38:00]
Yeah. (PAUSE) I was just like not good at the two sentence summary. I'm not sure there is a two sentence summary that's meaningful at all. Amanda was... Something I talked about a couple of days ago... She's working as a chaplain at the summer camp we used to go to. And so she was calling me for like, you know, Bible advice and, you know, they were talking about the big questions. So she was like, "Who wrote the Bible? They wanted to start talking about that." [00:39:05]
And I was just like, "There's not a short answer to that. There's just not." I mean, the short answer is a lot of people. (LAUGHTER) But like... You just don't... I don't know how to... (SIGH) Because there are people like, when like non-specialists are like, "Oh, this is what I want to know. Tell me," person who does Bible studies... Like I want to help. But they want a short answer that they can understand simply and like there isn't one. There's... I'm not sure there's an answer I understand. And... (PAUSE) Yeah. I guess it's sort of similar here like I'm trying to give people a kind of (PAUSE) manageable portion of my life, like a manageable snapshot of me and I don't... [00:40:21]
(PAUSE)
I don't have one.
(PAUSE) [00:41:00]
(inaudible at 00:41:15) You know, it's not being able to have, not being able to kind of give people that just makes me feel so guilty and ashamed and I'm not sure why but, you know, James is afraid for me and I feel guilty when I fail to, you know, quiet those fears in a way that is adequate even though there's no fucking way that I can. That doesn't actually have that much to do with me at all. [00:41:59]
You know, I know that but I can't... I can't stop feeling bad about it. (PAUSE) Yeah. I am ashamed that I, you know, that I felt grad school because I was ashamed about being in the hospital (inaudible) I don't want to tell people about it because I'm ashamed of it. [00:43:03]
But I also very strongly think that I should not be ashamed of it so I make myself talk about it. I'm not very good at keeping... I just talk about myself. Sometimes I talk. There's that too and... (SIGH) (PAUSE) You know, sometimes I don't really notice it because it's just like sort of coating everything so much.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:43:47)
CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) I feel like I don't talk about it with you that often and I think part of it is that I'm ashamed to talk about it and part of it is that I can't see it because it's all around. [00:44:07]
You know, like living (inaudible)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You don't see it after a while. You just stop seeing it.
THERAPIST: Right. (PAUSE) We should stop.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: See you tomorrow.
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