TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I'm also not feeling great so if I have to go out...

THERAPIST: Yeah. What's wrong?

CLIENT: Oh, I ate something wrong. I'm not going into work today actually. But yeah...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I hope you feel better.

CLIENT: Yeah. Thanks. (PAUSE) I'm thinking about joining a choir. I can't tell if that's a really good idea or a really terrible idea.

THERAPIST: Oh?

CLIENT: Good in the sense that I really love choral music and I really love singing. Bad in the sense that like (PAUSE) pretty much every choir I've ever joined, I've left in disgust, often after years. But... [00:01:01]

Like, I've had... (PAUSE) There are basically like five choir directors and four and a half of them had a real tendency to lose their temper and scream at us unpredictably. I think it's just a thing. Like as far as I can tell, like everybody that I know who sang is like, "Yeah. That's what musicians do sometimes." I'm like, "I don't really want to be in that situation." (PAUSE) My fear was in high school one of the... One of the choir directors got so angry at us that he like... [00:02:03]

He lost his temper and raised his voice and all that and then he like... He took his music folder and he threw it on the ground and he jumped up and down on it. (PAUSE) Which, as you can imagine, it's a whole lot to impress high school boys. (PAUSE) But I love it. So I (PAUSE) have been sort of asking various members of the Calvary Choir about the directors and they tell me they lose their temper about every four to six months which is good enough for me. (PAUSE) You know, like every other week, it's like, that's... (PAUSE) At some point after college, I sang in a choir. [00:03:09]

Like I had sung with the same people in high school. But it was just like a totally different thing. Like they were very, very good with like kids, you know, very good with the youth choir, very patient, very kind, you know, pretty okay with us not being very good, that sort of thing. And it was just totally different in the adult choir. And I... (PAUSE) Eventually, it was... (SIGH) You know, after six months just said, you know, "I think I need to be treated like a professional now and that's not... You're not being professional. That's it." [00:03:57]

You know, and he apologized and sort of said, "You owe it to me to give me another chance." And I sort of said, "No. I don't." And that was that. He was an incredible composer and like the choir was really good. You know, good, good singers. But like... (PAUSE) I know I'd be more or less willing to put up with bullshit like that if I were a paid singer. Most like... (PAUSE) Most... A lot of Episcopal churches, maybe most, most that have the budget for it will have like a couple, three paid singers in each, for each part. You know, and you get paid like, I don't know, like fifty, seventy five bucks a week. It's usually like music students who are musicians. You show up and you're in the choir and it like carries the rest of the choir. [00:05:09]

I'm not that good. But... Yeah. (PAUSE) But I like to sing. (PAUSE) The choir director (ph) was a ridiculous person. I sang in it for two years, in both the regular choir and the small group which was like the... [00:06:09]

It was like a smaller group of like, you know, very good people. And I had to take a semester off because of my schedule. And Mr. Ferguson (ph) like refused to talk to me, like stopped acknowledging my existence in the hallway, like wouldn't even look at me. So shockingly enough, I didn't go back to the choir after the semester I had to take off. The best part though is that when I was teaching there, he kept doing it. Like...

THERAPIST: He kept ignoring you?

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) So, you know, I... It was like the year before he was retiring anyway. So I told the dean and she was like, "Hmm... That's pretty unacceptable." And I was like, "Yeah, I know." [00:07:01]

And that was kind of it. Like, "Well, he's an asshole," and left it at that. (PAUSE) Which, you know, was probably not the best way that they should have handled that situation. But... That's sort of how things tended to get handled there. Like when (PAUSE) people who had a history of behaving poorly got worse as they go closer to retirement, there was kind of an attitude of, "Well, we'll just send them on their way eventually." Which is how I got the job in the first place. It was okay. The teacher before me had to be like, had to be fired like right before, at the beginning of the summer. So they didn't have time to do a real search process. [00:08:03]

She was the one who told us that her best friends were dead authors and she wore black on the Fourth of July because she didn't think America should have left British citizenship. She was pretty great actually. I mean... (LAUGHTER) Like she only got more nuts from there. But it's just, you know (PAUSE) sort of a harmless insanity.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Is that what they fired her for?

CLIENT: No, no. That's like... That was normal.

THERAPIST: Oh okay. Yeah.

CLIENT: No. I think they ended up firing her because she like... (SIGH) She stopped... She stopped doing any paperwork at all, like any grading, anything. She had her son who was... I think he was like 22, 23 but didn't have a college degree come in and teach her classes because she, you know, was behind on grading so she had this idea that she would grade the papers and he would teach.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:09:15]

CLIENT: And she lost it and screamed at a couple of students. (inaudible at 00:09:27) And like... (PAUSE) There was someone who had to retire early. It was sort of like so clear to me that that was a very real scenario and also like I was the person coming in and I didn't want to like poke about it. But, you know, it's a school. There's a lot of gossip.

(PAUSE) [00:10:00]

My grandparents... My grandfather was a choir director and composer and my grandmother played the organ which probably contributed to my feeling like it's (PAUSE) being unreasonable and not choosing to exercise control over your emotions is something that's cultivated in that field. I don't know. (PAUSE) Yeah. I mean, even when I was a kid, the choir director... I sang the children's choir when I was like four to when I was in eighth grade. [00:11:01]

You know, and I learned a lot and for a long time he was a real friend of the family. But like... Yeah. He would just lose it. You know, I didn't think that was weird obviously. (PAUSE) Yeah. I mean, I didn't start thinking it was weird until I wasn't a child anymore. (PAUSE) You know, because like (PAUSE) I think most teachers blow up on their students on occasion, at least most of the teachers I had in like middle school and high school. [00:12:07]

I don't... (PAUSE) I'm really not a fan now and like as an educator, I've been there and it's really not that hard not to yell and even if it is that hard, you can do it and it's really important that you do. But, you know, certainly as a child it was like that is normal. You know, choir directors just lost their temper more. So like... (PAUSE) It was really... Like it was really tough singing at... Crap. What was the name of the church?... After college... [00:13:05]

And, you know, singing with people that I had a really good relationship too with for several years because I sang there after I left my school choir because Mr. Ferguson (ph) wouldn't talk to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I had a really good relationship with them and I sort of was expecting that... I just wasn't, was not expecting to be treated like a child anymore. (PAUSE) You know, I was really sort of starting to develop some good friendships there and stuff. But I had sort of decided that people weren't going to get to treat me like that anymore. [00:14:07]

(PAUSE) Interestingly, all of the other people in the choir, as far as I could tell, really supported my decision to leave. You know, a couple of people who had been there for like five or six years said, "Yeah. It's been getting worse." This used to happen once every couple of months and now it happens like every rehearsal. So, you know, maybe they had some stuff going on but I don't really care.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:15:00]

CLIENT: I guess I also see it as being like extremely perfectionistic in the way that, you know, you have to be in the choir. Like, to some extent, like a choir is successful insofar as every single member of it is as perfectionistic as the choir director. Like, you know, you do it again and again and again and again and it's very rare that after I've finished singing a piece I feel like, "Yeah, we did that right." [00:16:11]

Like, you know, most of the time it's like, "Okay. That was okay." But it's just... You know, it's one of the things I really like about it is that it's like is that it's hard and it's beautiful even when it's not that successful but when it is successful it's just like another dimension. And that... (PAUSE) Yeah. That's something worth working toward. But not worth putting up with the amount of bullshit I'd have to put up with. [00:17:05]

It's just very sad. (PAUSE) I don't know yet. I mean, I don't know if I'd be good enough for the Calvary Choir. And I don't know whether my schedule would fit it (inaudible at 00:17:35) rehearse on Wednesday or Thursday nights (inaudible)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:17:45)

(PAUSE) [00:18:00]

CLIENT: Mr. Ferguson who was the choir director at my high school he was one of those people who like is fairly despicable but has convinced himself and everyone around him that he's eccentric and cute. (PAUSE) And... (SIGH) (PAUSE) Yeah. He just loved me for two years.

(PAUSE) [00:19:00]

You know, in some ways, I was really surprised he would turn on me and in some ways I really wasn't. He was pretty terrible to (inaudible at 00:19:27) mostly because... But he was... He loved me because I was good and, you know, I was a good singer and I had good pitch. And he was terrible to them. They had pretty terrible pitch. So he basically just bullied them into quitting (PAUSE) even though like, you know, it's an educational thing. It's a school choir. Not his...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:20:00]

CLIENT: I was definitely the best singer I have ever been and probably will ever be with him. (PAUSE) Eh.

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: I just said eh. Just... (PAUSE) I don't know. It doesn't seem... It doesn't seem like it.

(PAUSE) [00:21:00]

It's like... It's like they think their job is to serve some ideal of beauty and don't realize that like there are people there. [00:22:01]

(PAUSE) [00:23:00]

You know, and the abstract of beauty is really important to me. So it's (PAUSE) it's easy for me to say, "Yeah. That's alright if we sound better at the end of it." You know?

(PAUSE) [00:24:00]

(PAUSE) [00:25:00]

THERAPIST: I guess it also seems to me that what you're talking about with the choir directors is unusual in that... (PAUSE) I don't know. (PAUSE) I guess a couple of things. First, it kind of involves the moment when the other person really loses their patience. You're worrying about it, anticipating this (inaudible at 00:26:11) is worth it in light of that. [00:26:17]

And also how over the years you've gotten more confident that that's (PAUSE) not okay with you and about them in a way more so about you, not that they might not be right about some mistake that they're losing their shit over but the fact that they're losing their shit (inaudible) problem.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:27:00]

THERAPIST: I guess the piece about what you have been telling yourself about (PAUSE) like what's beautiful about the singing kind of justifying some sort of treatment...

CLIENT: In some ways I feel like I might still be putting up with it if I hadn't come to the conclusion that losing one's temper is actually a lot less effective for getting what you want than other management techniques. (LAUGHTER) I don't know. [00:27:59]

Or I might still have left. It would look a lot different. Like there would be much more like "I can't handle this" rather than "They shouldn't be doing it."

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:28:21) when you describe them of (PAUSE) (inaudible) choir directors are like acting in a pretty narcissistic way.

CLIENT: Well, that comes with the territory. I mean... (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) You know...

(PAUSE) [00:29:00]

I don't... I don't... (PAUSE) I know very few musicians and very few actors who are not pretty narcissistic. Well, I don't know. I feel like that's less the case. That's less the case like... No (inaudible at 00:29:37) You know? (PAUSE) But yeah, it's such a brutal field. You have to protect yourself. Like... (PAUSE) Everyone was telling me (inaudible) right from the moment you start doing it. [00:30:03]

You know... (PAUSE) Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:31:00]

THERAPIST: I think you may feel as though I've just sort of doubted you or pushed back in some way on what you were saying.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't know. (PAUSE) I'm not sure why I felt like I needed to defend my narcissism with ambition. But like... I don't know. It doesn't bother me as long as they don't take it out on me. But they usually do.

(PAUSE) [00:32:00]

It's funny. It's like I have that and I sort of see that in myself. But there's also this like, particularly the singing and also with acting, there's always this humility about it that's important to me. Like it's not ever about me actually. It's always about what you're doing. It has to be. (PAUSE) I feel like people who (inaudible at 00:32:59) not doing good work. [00:33:03]

(PAUSE) [00:34:00]

THERAPIST: So (inaudible) choirs and about choir directors that you were like (PAUSE) among other things, sort of trying out in part your relationship to me being critical and frustrated. You know, sad too but critical and frustrated about the way that you've been treated. And it's kind of taking up some space. And it felt like, you know, what I said maybe sounded (inaudible) on the defensive. And, you know, I'm not... [00:35:07]

I'm not saying it necessarily shouldn't have. It wasn't what I meant. But I'm not trying to say that's all you. There was something about what I said. But...

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:35:21) I didn't feel particularly defensive but then like I look at what I said and then, oh yeah, that makes sense. Like I don't...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, let's see. So (PAUSE) the last thing that I said was about your description of the choir directors making them sound narcissistic.

(PAUSE) [00:36:00]

And I guess I could imagine that that made you feel like I was... Skeptical's not quite the right word. But something's there. Like I'm saying, "You're describing all these people as being narcissistic. Hmm..." You know? Like... Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: It felt like there was an implication that, you know, maybe there's something here going on about you if you're describing all these people in that way.

CLIENT: Huh. Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:37:00]

I guess to me it just feels like to describe choir director as narcissistic is self-evident. (LAUGHTER) Like...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Right. I know... I guess I should say I know what you mean by that.

CLIENT: I felt like that's absolutely true but not quite the problem. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But...

THERAPIST: I see. So maybe it's the case where I seemed ignorant in a way. Like...

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess so.

THERAPIST: I see. So it sounds like you're describing all these physicists as being kind of nerdy. You know? Like...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:37:59)

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:38:01]

THERAPIST: And you're like, "Duh." (PAUSE) But then my reaction is probably what made you feel nervous. I mean, I got the impression that maybe I made you feel a bit nervous. I don't know if it's me really not knowing that much about choir directors or something.

CLIENT: I don't know. Maybe it felt like I... (PAUSE) That kind of like... That kind of narcissism which I see is pretty defensive is something that I like really, really see in myself and I have a real problem with it. So maybe it's like hitting too close to a bone or something.

(PAUSE) [00:39:00]

I don't know. (PAUSE) You know, part of the reason I want to join a choir is because I like performing. I like being in front of people. (PAUSE) I mean, not that that's an inherently bad thing. I'm just squeamish about it. [00:39:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'm still wondering if I sounded like a big idiot about choir directors (inaudible at 00:40:01) (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Okay. (LAUGHTER) (inaudible) (PAUSE) Yeah. I'm not sure if it's all musicians. But... (PAUSE) It's most of the singers I know.

(PAUSE) [00:41:00]

Yeah. The more I talk about this the more it feels like a terrible idea.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

(PAUSE) [00:43:00]

CLIENT: There's also such an overlap in terms of people I know and have met between like music people and theater people. (PAUSE) Yeah. (PAUSE) Which is another thing that like I left basically because I was disappointed with... (PAUSE) I was disappointed with people in charge and (inaudible) less than I expected to. It was like all I did in high school, not all I did but like I was going to be an actor and like that was what I was going to do. So... [00:44:15]

You know, for the first couple of years of college too. (PAUSE) I had a very similar feeling that like you were dedicating yourself to something that's beautiful and bigger than yourself and actually deciding it's not worth it.

THERAPIST: It's time to go.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: See you on Monday.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thanks. You too.

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