TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
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CLIENT: [inaudible 0:00:03] it feel like this is [inaudible 0:00:03] though.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I think a lot of buildup and…oh well.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It was pretty scary getting home from work last night. I don’t know if it was bad where you were, but like…I don’t know. I just have the worse car possible for the snow. Which I realize…because like I drove to pick Keller up from school in their like super Outback and then I drove back home, and I was like, “This is an entirely different experience.”
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But. Yeah. It took me like twice as long. That’s okay. I got pretty good at driving in the snow. It’s not bad. But yeah. [Pause] Yeah. And I think like Keller’s school was delayed two hours and Kim doesn’t need to go into work until like 11 or 12. And so I can sort of take my time in shoveling out and getting on my way. [Pause] I was really hoping they’d close the state capitol though. (Laughs) But that is okay. [Pause]
THERAPIST: I think you’ve done that like four or five times so far in this hour. Like express…
CLIENT: You mean within the last five minutes? (Laughs)
THERAPIST: Expressed sort of frustration about something and then you immediately followed that by saying it’s okay.
CLIENT: Hmmm. [Pause] Hmmm. [Pause] So one of the things that James and I talked about with Dr. Jannis…I sort of surprised it. Like how much it hit me or like…yeah. How tough it was for me to talk about. I felt like we haven’t really like gotten excited about the prospect of moving in our conversations.
Like we haven’t really been treating the next step as like this could be a really fun adventure for us. And I think for me it’s just like I don’t feel like I have it in me to deal with major disappointment. So I’m just sort of trying not to be hopeful about things. Ahmm. [Pause]
Or just not actually protected me in the way that I always hoped that it would protect me, but that’s how it goes. That’s what I do. [Pause] Yeah. The idea of just saying that I was frustrated or disappointed in something and just leaving it at that seems sort of horrifying to me. Yeah. [Pause] I don’t know.
I guess I have to feel like it seems fairly ridiculous to me to be disappointed that I have to go to work on a day that I would have had to go to work anyway, that like I work three days a week the same three days every week. I don’t know. [Pause]
THERAPIST: In a way, they’re your like trying to stave off disappointment in yourself as well as somebody who only works three days a week, but doesn’t even want to do that.
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess so.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Yeah. I do feel like my job is considerably like more relaxed than it ever in the case for me.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: So yeah. And I also still like…it’s so…it’s really hard for me not to be in the academic world anymore. It’s really hard and I’m really disappointed with myself. The answers sort of like grieving that. like … [pause] Yeah.
And I feel like…I feel like that comes out in like weird ways, in ways that I don’t really…that don’t make me feel good about myself. Like…it’s like, we have like Bible study discussions at church and I just talk way too much.
Like I just talk too much and I sort of like catch myself during, after and get really frustrated with myself. I can’t stop or I don’t…yeah. I feel like I need to get a better handle on that and I’m not. [Pause] Yeah. It’s really [inaudible 0:09:40]. [Pause] Yeah. So that’s what I was playing out in my work now.
Also like I sort of figured out how to do my job and so now I’m like, “Okay. Time for the next thing.” (Laughs) Ahmm, which is also something that makes me frustrated with myself. You know, it’s like I’ll be both very focused on the problem at hand and like very focused on the kids and where they are and what we’re doing.
And then at the same time, just like really bored. (Laughs). Ahmm, and like I guess that’s not surprising, but it’s…I don’t really have like a fixed word. [Pause] And I know that like theoretically going back on this scholarship, is always a possibility, but like I think about it and all I can really see is like how bad it would be for me. Like how sort of toxic it gets and ahmm…yeah. [Pause]
But I don’t know what I want to do. Yeah. [inaudible 0:13:14] doing what I can do right now. It’s just like think about it and explore different career options and wait until we know where we’re going to be. Ahmm. [Pause] And this is frustrating to realize that this thing that was enough for me for a while, isn’t working out for me anymore.
THERAPIST: Are you referring to working with the kids?
CLIENT: Yeah. [Pause] [inaudible 0:15:34] like…so really, really enjoying what you’re doing, until you figure out how to do it well and then getting bored with it. It’s like, it’s very much how my mom operates and so that’s also like…I don’t know. Makes me anxious. [Pause]
THERAPIST: Yeah. I was thinking I can’t yet tell if, you know, that you like the kids, I imagine, so close to them in some ways. And I think you’re good about what you’re doing with them, but as a kind of intellectual stimulation or interest in learning new things that just isn’t there.
And that’s a lot of it or whether it’s something more I think like what you’re sort of pointing toward about your mom, where once you’re kind of settled into something and in a kind of stable situation with it, and maybe with people in it, something happens.
CLIENT: Yeah. I think it’s probably some of both. Yeah. I mean I do really find myself like starving for an intellectual problem. But I also think that it’s almost just like thriving on chaos. (Laughs) And that scares me and I don’t know what to do about it.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. I mentioned that’s the scary part.
CLIENT: I feel, you know, pretty ashamed of that. Yeah. Not like it just gets so destructive. [Pause]
THERAPIST: It also reminds me of…because what I remember about how you were with academic work, where you would kind of wait till the end of the semester and do a lot of it, and then, you know, work incredibly hard, stay up and do whatever else just to kind of crunch and get everything done.
CLIENT: Um hum. Yeah. Yeah. It’s that sort of built-in cycle [inaudible 0:19:31] I really like in some ways. And it’s also really bad for me. [Pause] Yeah.
THERAPIST: I wonder if some of it is about again trying to [inaudible 0:21:37] or avoid if a pretty intense degree of disappointment, I think most immediately in yourself.
CLIENT: How do you mean?
THERAPIST: Like with the kids that if you’re settled into it and you can do it and it’s going well or smoothly, I know that you start to feel maybe disappointed in yourself with this is what you’re doing or…I’m not sure. I mean like the fact that you could do it. Means you can’t be all that great to begin with. I don’t know.
CLIENT: I can’t tell how much of, like to what extent I really need to be solving problems and to what extent I really need to think of myself as somebody who solves problems,, I think. I don’t know. [Pause]
THERAPIST: Well, there must be plenty of problems though.
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean there are and that’s interesting. (Laughs) But like…
THERAPIST: I get there not novel at this point.
CLIENT: (Laughs) Yeah. [Pause] Yeah. [Pause]
THERAPIST: Maybe it’s more like it reassures you and keeps you focused on something else other than how bad you’re feeling about yourself.
CLIENT: [inaudible 0:25:41]?
THERAPIST: Like solving problems. Doing novel things. I don’t mean that’s all the things for you obviously, but…
CLIENT: No, but it definitely like both distracts me from me feeling badly about myself and helps me feel a little better about myself.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I was just really good at it. I keep thinking that like I will miss it less and I just don’t…yeah. Sometimes I feel like I miss it more because I’m not confronted with how horrible it was. (Laughs) [Pause]
THERAPIST: What was it that was so horrible?
CLIENT: Just like…I was just so anxious about being good enough and it felt like the environment I was in was designed to make me more anxious about being good enough. And none of the expectations were clear and there weren’t any tools for doing what was actually expected or for finding out what was expected from me or doing it.
But the consequences of not doing it were very high and it did sort of like feed into the sort of like feast and famine and pattern of like working very, very hard and then not working at all, and not feeling good about myself either way.
You know, and like at the end of the day, I was working really, really hard and not really getting paid very much for it. And the expectation is that I would continue to work very hard and maybe stop being able to get paid at all for it. And yeah. [Pause] It was just really exciting. [Pause] I felt like I…I felt like the things that I’m good at and that I looked good at were being used.
Yeah. Some of the things that I was good at were not being used, but like, you know, it probably seems like a problem that I think of it as this very sad thing that my skill for learning languages and putting together an argument and writing things, is not being used. And I didn’t think that it was a terrible thing that like my skills for like empathizing and being with people and helping people solve problems and being around small children or children in general were not being used. (Laughs)
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: It seems a little crazy to that I value one more than the other, but like I do sort of think that one thing counts and the other doesn’t.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But I don’t want…I don’t want that to rule my decisions either because I think that’s crazy. [Pause]
THERAPIST: Yeah. There’s something about being talented and being or maybe even knowing valuable or valued like for things that are…really that are pretty specific to you. I mean, nobody else has them, that you do and a lot of people don’t. And that’s having something to do with what’s also good about it.
CLIENT: Yeah. [Pause]
THERAPIST: And I can see how that really is left out of your current job. Like [inaudible 0:32:41] may have some sense of that about you and like in a remote way, but it’s not what they need you for.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Or what matters to them and not you.
CLIENT: Yeah. [Pause] At one point when I was talking with my dad about like thinking about becoming a priest. And I don’t remember exactly what he said, but he made it pretty clear that like being smart and being good at writing was not really what he valued in me and was not what…basically is like, “Well if you’re a good priest, that’s not what will make you a good priest.”
THERAPIST: [inaudible 0:34:18]?
CLIENT: That it’s not like for him it’s about like being able to be with people and…
THERAPIST: Yeah. I get that part. What I’m confused about is I thought you said he’d make her what he valued about you?
CLIENT: Yeah. That, that…sorry. That what he values is also being able to be with people.
THERAPIST: I see. That your dad values the things that would make you a good priest?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And not these other things about you.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I mean, both of those things seem important, but I see how they overlap. But I wasn’t clear.
CLIENT: Which I think he was sort of meaning to say something nice, but it really didn’t feel good. (Laughs) [Pause] I mean that’s one of the…that’s sort of the draw of it for me it’s that like, you know, I think that like religious leadership that can think is really important. (Laughs) And maybe a little bit lacking much of the time. (Laughs)
Like the church had like something like basically a campaign slogan that I think is actually pretty horrible, but the thought was good. Which was like, “A church where you don’t have to check your mind at the door.” Which is both like yes, that expresses one of the things that many people find, including myself, find really valuable in the church, but it’s also like…
THERAPIST: [inaudible 0:36:22].
CLIENT: (Laughs) Fucking elitist, I think. (Laughs) Really? Like is that actually what we want to…like is that what we want at the front, like at the entrance of churches when people are coming in, like to try to draw them in?
THERAPIST: Right. If there were some way to say that like positively about the Episcopal church without implicitly like dissing…
CLIENT: Everyone else?
THERAPIST: …just about everyone else. Yeah.
CLIENT: I think most churches deserve it. Sorry. (Laughs). No I don’t know [inaudible 0:36:56] think that. I certainly hear from a lot of people who left the church because they felt like they weren’t allowed to be thinking.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Ahmm, but like…so like I think I do think that’s important in church leadership. But like…and I also think that being able to be with people is crucially important and I think I can do both of those things and that’s exciting for me. [Pause]
THERAPIST: I also think…wondering or thinking about how it is they play here for you and my sense is that like sometimes it’s sort of nice and reassuring both for yourself and in terms of how it sort of comes across to me to be able to like think carefully, analytically.
And well everything you’re talking about, and other times incredibly frustrating both in terms of what you feel like you can’t do and also I think imagining that it looks bad to me when…because of anxiety or whatever else, you can’t think clearly or feel like you’re thinking while here.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I think both for sort of feeling effective and probably you want to be able to do that. And I think you also, maybe I’m wrong, but I think you also want to look good to me that way.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I think sometimes you feel like you do other times, because of the nature of the things that we’re talking about, it’s hard to do that and that gets upsetting and frustrating.
CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like it’s getting easier for me to sort of accept that I’m not going to be able to think clearly about everything all the time. (Laughs) You know, a little bit easier at least. (Laughs) Maybe not easy. (Laughs) What?
THERAPIST: I had the feeling you thought I was smiling as you were saying that because I was like sort of disagreeing or…
CLIENT: Yes. That’s right.
THERAPIST: Or qualifying.
CLIENT: That’s right.
THERAPIST: Which is not at all what I was thinking or smiling about.
CLIENT: (Laughs)
THERAPIST: More that…yeah. Like it just sort of sounds like you too want to be able to be more flexible about that and…I guess my point is I wasn’t disagreeing.
CLIENT: I think it’s also like…it’s sort of weird for me. Like it’s weird for me to talk to you about what I’m good at because like you really don’t have anything else other than my word for that. And like my word and then what you see of me in here.
And so like I can sort of say I’m very good with people or I can…I’m very good at like being with people in hard times and teaching and things I can say, but like I’m very good at writing and all of that. But like I don’t have any idea like how…to what extent you believe me or like what that sounds like to you. And so I think sometimes like I become more anxious. Like it becomes more important for me to be able to think clearly in here.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Because I feel like that is what you hear.
THERAPIST: [inaudible 0:41:39] and not just telling me about it.
CLIENT: Yeah. [Pause]
THERAPIST: Yeah. It seems like that…since that I question or I don’t really believe you, it’s important that I’m not at the moment [inaudible 0:43:19].
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Or that like you could only believe me if you never saw any evidence to the contrary. Like…yeah. [inaudible 0:43:53].
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