TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: Hey. (pause) Blue Cross has started sending us checks that are like, big clumps of claims together -
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Which is fine just (pause) I don’t know why they do what they do. That’s all. (pause) Yeah, I don’t know. (pause) I have next week off!
THERAPIST: Oh!
CLIENT: That’ll be nice. I think Keller’s (sp?) on winter break [00:01:01]
THERAPIST: Who is she?
CLIENT: One of my friends. So, they’re all sort of taking some time off and going downtown (ph)!
THERAPIST: Oh!
CLIENT: Yeah! (pause) It will be good.
THERAPIST: Good. (pause)
CLIENT: I don’t really know what to talk about. (pause) I really [did much] (ph) in the last 24 hours. You know, 20 hours. I watched a lot of TV.
THERAPIST: Yeah?
CLIENT: Yeah, I’ve been watching a lot of TV. (pause) [00:02:00]
[I was] (ph) pretty sad for a while last night but like, I don’t know. I wasn’t totally clear why, it sort of got better over the course of the evening. I just watched some TV and sort of took care of myself and I was fine. (pause) I really don’t know. (pause)
[00:03:00]
[00:04:00]
CLIENT: Yeah, so what I’m doing is sort of sitting here and my mind is totally blank and then I’ll think of one thing and then I’ll be like, “No, I don’t really want to say that” and then I can’t think of anything else, that’s all I can think about. So. Here it is. (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: Yesterday we got to couples counseling before [Dr. Janis] (ph) got there and we were sort of waiting out in the hall slightly uncomfortably and James eventually was like, “Oh, I guess you do this every day.” And I was like, “Yep!” That was it. That was all I could think of. (laughs)
THERAPIST: Huh. (pause) [00:05:00]
CLIENT: Also, James said Dr. Zurich (sp?) seems to have gotten engaged and I said, “Have you asked her about it? Does she have an engagement ring?” And he said, “No, not yet.” And I said “Are you going to?” And he said “Yeah, I think I’m going to say it (ph) “ And he’s like, “I think that’s fair game.” I was like, “Okay.” (inaudible whisper at 00:05:30)
THERAPIST: Uh-uh (pause)
CLIENT: I don’t know. That’s what I thought of. (sighs) (pause)
[00:06:00]
THERAPIST: I think what it makes you think of is (pause) sort of like role and boundaries about (ph). (pause) Like, as the therapist I go (ph) from being someone who shows up to let you in to being a therapist or I’m like, having a life outside in which they might get engaged. [Do you know what I mean?] (ph) (inaudible at 00:06:50) can you cross that a little bit and tell you something about it or is that too weird or something?
CLIENT: James doesn’t seem to get anxious about those things. I get really anxious. [00:07:03]
THERAPIST: You do, yeah.
CLIENT: I get really anxious. (pause) I was thinking about this in terms of like, the people who work at Calvary. so I went out for drinks with Camilla, who’s a priest there. She’s been there for like six months. She’s probably like mid-thirties. And some of the paid singers. And it was definitely like everybody was sort of letting their hair down. (pause) And I guess that I hadn’t seen any of the priests at Calvary sort of relax their pastoral presence around parishioners before. And I’m not really sure how I feel about that. And that like I sort of find it a relief to have somebody clearly not worry about what I am thinking. And I’m a priest’s kid, you know? It’s still weird for me to think of myself as a parishioner.
THERAPIST: You sort of feel on the inside?
CLIENT: I do and I’m not and so it’s sort of hard to negotiate that. (pause)
[00:09:00]
CLIENT: I was talking about some of the decision they’ve been making in the project they call “The Year of the Bible” to read the whole Bible and like, this sort of hasn’t worked out as well as I would have hoped. I think partly because the people haven’t really, it’s like a big sustained project, and people haven’t really wanted to put aside the time for it. And I think honesty because the rector (ph) and the sort of veteran (ph) priest, the people who are giving the lectures aren’t really doing a lot of biblical scholarship. Basically, they’ll read one good commentary and draw from there. Which is fine, it’s not like they’re saying things that are wrong, they’re just not really it’s fairly fluffy. And to me, I feel like that (pause) the opportunity here is to introduce a whole lot of people to things that we actually know and aren’t actually that controversial but nobody knows about. But if the problem you see in the Episcopal church is biblical illiteracy, you can’t just read it. I don’t know. And so I was sort of treading cautiously but alluding to some of that with her and she was like, “This isn’t very pastoral of me but within this conversation, I’m going to say, yes, I don’t like the way they’re doing this.” And on one had I feel sort of good. On the other I’m like, “You probably shouldn’t have done that. Probably not a good choice.” [00:12:00]
THERAPIST: Uh-uh
CLIENT: I don’t know. (pause) I think I was talking about it within the context of the so a group at Calvary asked me to give a lecture on the third and I’ve just sort recently come up with what I want to talk about and didn’t want to step on anybody else’s toes and I didn’t know where the toes were but people are touchy about authority and get very protective of it and I don’t always know where they are going to be protective so I’m trying to just cover all my bases. (pause) Yeah. [00:13:00]
But I mean, I find it very frustrating because I’m like, I’m not the only biblical scholar at the church. They have a very well educated congregation. They could do a lot better. (laughs)
THERAPIST: Uh-uh (pause)
[00:14:00]
[00:15:00]
THERAPIST: [It’s funny.] (ph) (inaudible at 00:15:30) it is making me wonder about whether there are things that you (pause) would want to have thought of, want to say or ask about me that you’re worried about bringing up or feeling like stepping on my toes or it would be inappropriate or (pause) [00:16:00]
CLIENT: (laughs) Sorry, I’m laughing because I was thinking “So much for the mislead there.” (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs) (pause) Do you mean like -
CLIENT: Kind of like, “Let’s talk about (inaudible at 00:16:21) and just like, “Yeah, okay, no.” (laughs)
THERAPIST: (chuckles) (pause)
CLIENT: I don’t know, I’m back and forth. Sometimes I’m really curious about your life and sometimes I’m not. (pause) [00:17:00]
THERAPIST: [Let’s back up a little bit.] (ph) I wouldn’t say what you were saying about the church was simply a mislead. It also made it clear that (pause) about what seemed to be on your mind and elaborating what you said before.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No, it was just sort of trying to be funny.
THERAPIST: Yeah, it was funny, I just (inaudible at 00:17:32). (pause)
CLIENT: Okay, I have a question. Do you have kids? (pause) You’re totally not going to answer that, are you? (laughs) [00:17:59]
THERAPIST: (laughs) I haven’t decided yet. (pause) It’s definitely (ph) fine that you asked, I’m just not sure what to do with it yet.
CLIENT: Okay. (pause)
[00:19:00]
CLIENT: Yeah, I’m uncomfortable around this because it seems inconceivable to me that if there’s a question that you don’t want to answer, that it would be okay for me to ask it. Those two going together is something that I have a hard time processing.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: And also to me it seems that like, much of my being curious about you is sort of, is again, sort of a mislead for me. But like, it’s not sometimes I’m very uncomfortable with you being so much in my life and so that’s sort of how I try to recognize it or that’s how it comes out. But it’s not [00:20:00]
THERAPIST: It’s not actually what your discomfort is about. (pause) It feels like if you knew more about me than (inaudible at 00:20:14) wouldn’t be a problem.
CLIENT: (overlapping talking) [A little bit] (ph) scary.
THERAPIST: [Or frightening.] (ph)
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)
[00:21:00]
THERAPIST: Couldn’t (ph) you have an idea that you’re not supposed to want to know.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)
THERAPIST: And that (pause) you could get in trouble with me for wanting to know I don’t think you imagine that I’d actually go to do that.
CLIENT: No. (pause) I guess the way that I could get in trouble with you would be that (sighs) my being intrusive would make you uncomfortable and upset and would hurt you in some way and that you would lash out at me in some way. [00:22:05]
THERAPIST: I see. (pause)
CLIENT: And so there like the lashing out is a problem but like, just the making you uncomfortable is the problem, I don’t want to do that.
THERAPIST: Mhm, sure.
CLIENT: Having said that, I’m going to follow it up -
THERAPIST: Yeah?
CLIENT: (laughs) So, I don’t remember why we were talking about this last night. I think we were talking about Dr. Jones (sp?) was late yesterday and he was sort of flustered by it. Which I that is something [to get flustered] (ph) about anyway. (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs) (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:22:54)
CLIENT: And so he sort of spiraled from there and James was like, “I guess there’s real possibility that our therapists are in a relationship.” (laughs) (inaudible at 00:23:09) that. I’m like, “I’m pretty sure that’s not the case.”
THERAPIST: (laughs) Wait, [explain this.] (ph)
CLIENT: That you and Dr. Smith were dating.
THERAPIST: Oh! Got it! (laughs)
CLIENT: (laughs) I’m like, “No, I’m pretty sure that’s not it.” (pause)
THERAPIST: That’s funny.
CLIENT: I feel like you probably would not have referred us to Dr. Smith if that was the case. (laughs) Seems pretty basic.
THERAPIST: Uh-uh (pause)
[00:24:00]
THERAPIST: There would be something convenient about it in a way.
CLIENT: (laughs)
THERAPIST: You know?
CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I was thinking about it because James was like, “That really bothered me.” My first thought was that would bother me but then I was like, “No, no, that wouldn’t bother me.” Yeah. (pause)
[00:25:00]
CLIENT: I don’t know. I think it’s also there’s some tension with James in that (sighs) (pause) you know, you’re very much in my life and by extension, in his life to. So like, I think it freaks him out a little bit that I don’t that like, he’ll say like, “What does Josh think about this.” And I have no idea. (laughs) And I’m sort of okay with that but James is less okay with that, I think, but getting there. So it feels like I’m kind of sort of mediate something -
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And I don’t I don’t know. (pause) [00:26:01]
THERAPIST: Well, I think I’m probably not going to answer the question. about the kids. It’s not that I mind you knowing, it’s more that I think for you, maybe I’m wrong, if I don’t answer most questions like that, I bet it would make it easier for you to ask.
CLIENT: How do you mean? (pause) No, you don’t have to explain actually, I can see that. [00:26:57]
THERAPIST: Okay, I mean, that question I don’t mind answering. (pause) I could imagine you sort of (pause) if you thought it was more likely to answer being more worried about asking what was on your mind.
CLIENT: Hm. Okay.
THERAPIST: I may revise that but I don’t know.
CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t think I have an opinion on that either.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: This makes me very uncomfortable.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: (chuckles) (pause)
[00:28:00]
CLIENT: Not anything in the last two seconds, just like -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: This whole conversation.
THERAPIST: Topic. Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)
[00:29:00]
THERAPIST: Maybe it’s also not easy to be in a close relationship that is so wildly out of balance. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah, I sort of I don’t know.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: My thought to that is “Well, maybe it’s just not easy to be in a close relationship.” (laughs)
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Which I don’t know whether that is something that carries meaning or just sounded nice to me. (pause)
[00:30:01]
CLIENT: I don’t know. (pause) You know, in some ways it’s quite easy and I’m hopeless at remembering first dates and spouses name and things and I don’t have to do that. (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: I’m the worst at birthdays. It took me six years to remember James’ birthday. I had a yearly habit, I would call Franco and ask him when James’ birthday was because I knew it was sometime in the spring.
THERAPIST: Uh-uh (pause)
[00:31:07]
CLIENT: I don’t know. I feel like it I don’t know probably has to do with like I get very anxious about how much I need this relationship and I feel like if (ph) I’m not doing it right it will go away and I don’t know how to do that. [00:32:05]
THERAPIST: Mhm. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I guess you are really in trouble if there are things that you want that aren’t okay. (pause)
CLIENT: (makes affirmative noises)
[00:33:00]
CLIENT: When I think about the things that I want from you, and mostly they’re just the things that you’re already doing, that really feels like it’s not okay so I guess, yes. (laughs)
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah, I just want you to keep being here and that feels like a lot to ask. (pause)
[00:34:00]
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)
THERAPIST: [I just know] (ph) you feel like you’re being very demanding? [00:34:59]
CLIENT: Yeah. And it sort of feels like you’re tolerating that but (pause) I also feel like it (sighs) I feel like in some ways I’m so deeply indebted that at some point you’re just going to stop tolerating that.
THERAPIST: Uh-uh
CLIENT: And then this. (pause)
THERAPIST: And that could be (inaudible 00:35:55) anything at any time, sort of like its precarious. [00:36:01]
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (pause)
[00:37:00]
THERAPIST: I wonder if that’s one that you have felt on that other end of (pause) at times with people you’re close to but have also, I think, disown (ph) that you felt crowded or imposed on or that it was getting impossible but also really don’t want to know that or don’t want to think about it that way or just want to think about it as your fault for not bearing up or something.
CLIENT: Hm. Yes. (smiles) No, I mean, that is very much how mAvy first relationship was for probably about two thirds of the relationship, I was like (pause) Yeah, I felt like the things that Hank needed were just sort of stifling for me or just overwhelming or eclipsed me in some ways.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:38:41) Yeah. (pause) And I find that what I tend to do when that happens is not say anything and not say anything and not say anything and then it gets too much and I just walk away.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:38:59]
CLIENT: And I’m working really hard not to do that. (laughs)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Because I don’t like being that person.
THERAPIST: Mhm. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) There was one point, I don’t quite remember when this was but when I was talking with Dan (sp?) a lot, I sort of drew some boundary. I don’t remember what it was but I was like, “No, we are not going to do this.” I think it was I don’t remember what it was. I’m like, he was so surprised. Not when I said, “This is what we’re going to do” but when I enforced it. [00:40:08]
THERAPIST: Mhm:
CLIENT: He was sort of okay with it but he sort of wasn’t. And he was sort of like, “Wow, you’re pretty tough.” And I was like, “Yep! I don’t know why this comes as a surprise to you.” But I think that it actually You know, I know why that was surprising because I don’t (pause) I don’t come across someone who is going to enforce boundaries. (pause) I don’t know.
[00:41:00]
CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:41:06) relationship where I did a stellar job of that in other contexts but -
THERAPIST: Uh-uh (pause) I imagine it was partly because of who he was that you felt (pause) that you could set whatever that boundary was and then enforce it. (pause) [00:42:05]
CLIENT: Who he was in terms of what his role was or who he was in terms of the kind of person he was?
THERAPIST: I guess what I had in mind was the kind of person he was and -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And what I’m saying is that like, I imagine you were more confident he would respect it even if he pushed a little bit as compared to Hank.
CLIENT: Yes. Yes.
THERAPIST: That you didn’t feel I guess as overwhelmed, maybe that’s where I’m going.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, I’ve grown up a lot since Bryan.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (inaudible overlapping talking at 00:42:53) (pause) Yeah, but like, whatever else Dan was, it was very clear to me that he just loved me very very deeply and that wasn’t going to change regardless of that I didn’t have to worry about that changing.
THERAPIST: Uh-uh (pause)
[00:44:00]
CLIENT: Also that he wasn’t going to (pause) it wasn’t going to hurt him more than he could handle.
THERAPIST: Mhm.
CLIENT: He’d be okay. (pause)
THERAPIST: We should stop.
CLIENT: Okay.
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