TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
[inaudible conversation 00:00:00 to 00:00:11]
CLIENT: I’m really looking forward to having (inaudible) (sighs) I wish I could afford to like, leave town.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm
CLIENT: (pause) But yeah I don’t think I…. (clears throat) last night, that was a lot worse yesterday than they told us it would be. Uhm, especially like in Burnley they’re like ‘oh no it’ll turn to rain about noon.’ It turned to rain about like 4, 4:30, uhm so I had to shovel to drive home and then I had to shovel to get into a parking spot, but it’s like… this is not what I need.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Uhm, but I (long pause) (inaudible) 1, 136, (ph?) so that was very exciting. Uhm (pause) I think it was good to like have some payoff you know.
THERAPIST: or CLIENT: For the work that they’re doing.
CLIENT: And I would always much rather talk about tax than talk about… [inaudible at 00:01:40].
(Pause) I was (pause) think it’s because I was thinking about like this talk that I’m giving in a couple weeks I was looking, I was reading through a paper that I wrote for a presentation at Brown a couple of years ago on the development of the active predicate participle, (inaudible) and as I read through the paper and I sort of vaguely, I don’t remember actually giving it but I vaguely remember that like (ph?) didn’t like it very much like my mother was sort of critical…
THERAPIST: Mmm-hm.
CLIENT: So I read through it, and I was like stressful, I was like it’s not a bad paper. It’s like the (ph?) it’s really boring. (chuckles) Oh just now I just the sorts of things I went through grad school to do
THERAPIST: Uh huh. [00:02:51]
CLIENT: Uhm (pause) I remember getting pretty into it cause I get pretty much into everything I work on but uhm (pause) oh man, like (pause) (ph?) is just like it’s really interesting in some ways but it’s pretty arcane and I’m not that good at it and it’s like how did I do that? How did I spend that much time doing that instead of the stuff that like, that’s like low hanging fruit you know, things that I am good at and find exciting. I should have just done those things (chuckles) so…. [00:03:43]
(long pause) I met with one of the priests at my church to talk about uhm discerning priesthood.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah, uhm we’ll probably meet like once a month (pause) I (pause) I told him that like it wasn’t so much that I wanted to be a priest despite going through periods of intense depression and suicidality but like that sort of because of that, so uh I wasn’t really interested in keeping this part of my life a secret from pretty much anybody (pause). And hum I think he really supported that uhm and I don’t know what the sort of church hierarchy, how they will feel about it, uhm (pause) but oh well. [00:05:06]
(long pause till 00:05:36)
CLIENT: I mean I think they’ll (inaudible) therapist, so or like trained as a therapist so I would imagine, I would expect him to be (chuckles) but uhm…
[Pause 00:05:50 to 00:06:01]
THERAPIST: (inaudible) think of uhm (pause) uh (inaudible) our concerns about doing here like (pause) the work that you want to do.
CLIENT: mmm yeah (pause) yeah (pause) I mean I, I feel pretty okay about it in that (pause) I think the worse possible situation I could get into would be one in which they decided to ordain me but then down the road had a problem with who I was. [00:06:49]
THERAPIST: Uh huh Yeah.
CLIENT: Uhm and or were not going to support me.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: So…
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (pause) It’s been a good day actually, I’m having a good day. [00:07:04]
THERAPIST: That’s great.
CLIENT: Uhm, yeah maybe go home watch Casablanca, going to make some pie, it’s going to be awesome. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: Great, like a good way to start your vacation.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I’m going to make a rhubarb pie, that’s like my favorite,
THERAPIST: All right.
CLIENT: Uh yeah.
THERAPIST: Okay. [00:07:29]
(pause till 07:43)
CLIENT: Yeah then I have vacation. [pause till 00:08:07]
I sort of want to go see people. Like what I really want to do is go see Candace…
THERAPIST: All right.
CLIENT: but yeah (inaudible) go to Maryland Uhm but …. (pause)
[Crosstalk at 00:08:24]
CLIENT: Like…
THERAPIST: To fly?
CLIENT: To anything, like we just don’t have any money at all right now. Even to drive to Maryland like, it would be just more than….
[Crosstalk at 00:08:40]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Uhm (long pause) So part of me wants to get together with people in Denver while I’m here.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm yeah.
CLIENT: Most of the people that I know in Denver that I don’t see every week anyway are people who make me really anxious.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: So uhm… [inaudible)
[pause 00:09:14 to 00:09:43]
CLIENT: James is thinking about applying for a visiting professorship at Texas A&M uhm which would be like three years.
CLIENT: Yeah it’s sort of I was like ‘oh that sounds great you should apply, Texas A&M is a great place’ uhm and then I, I sort of [inaudible at 00:10:17] oh what would I do in western Colorado. I have no idea. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:10:24]
CLIENT: Uh so (pause) It sort of (pause) it sort of feels like James is using like worrying about my vulnerability as an excuse not to apply though.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And uh I don’t really know what to do with that. Uhm (pause) yeah (pause) and I get sort of, I try to tamp these things down for various reasons but man it sort of seems he’s coming up with a lot of different reasons not to apply to things. (chuckles) [00:11:15]
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: And I don’t’ know whether that’s fair or not but (pause) he doesn’t want to like just send out a lot of post op applications because he doesn’t want to apply to (inaudible) to anybody that he doesn’t really want to work with because he’s worried about like if he applies and then somebody accepts him and then he turns that down then he thinks that will make him look bad or something uhm… it sort of feels to me like he’s coming up with reasons not to…
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:11:44]
CLIENT: …bite the bullet. Uhm (pause) I haven’t told him (ph?) (small chuckle) (pause) I yeah, I (inaudible) come up with lots of reasons why it would not be productive or useful for me to tell him (inaudible). (chuckle) [00:12:12]
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
[Pause till 00:12:40]
CLIENT: I had an e-mail conversation with a friend from WM, his name’s Morgan.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hm.
CLIENT: I might have talked about him before he’s...
THERAPIST: (inaudible) talk to every six months or so?
CLIENT: No, no he’s a different guy.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Yeah this one is, he was in, he was a bible student, Greek bible uhm he doing his (ph?) in Philadelphia now. He’s like crazy smart and very good at what he does.
THERAPIST: Mmmm hm.
CLIENT: And uhm he’s just like one of my favorite people… uhm.. and so he’s in Philadelphia which is also sort of (ph?) Uhm…
THERAPIST: Philadelphia is?
CLIENT: Yeah as of now, as of this year (inaudible) department…
[Crosstalk at 00:13:26]
CLIENT: In the world and like definitely in the country but their two senior people retired and another person left about a year ago.
THERAPIST: Wow! [00:13:40]
CLIENT: So as of right now they officially have no (ph?) on staff. So I think there’s still people, like I think people are sort of around.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But uhm he’s a little directionless.
THERAPIST: Wow they were the powerhouse…
CLIENT: Uhm yeah I think they will be again, I think they are and I think they have money and commitment to the institution but they’re not in a good place right now.
THERAPIST: Mmm hm.
CLIENT: Uhm so (inaudible) for him. But so anyway the point of that was that I’ll be there uh this semester.
THERAPIST: In Philadelphia.
CLIENT: In Philadelphia uhm to stay for the winter and spring. So Morgan’s taking a couple of classes (inaudible).
THERAPIST: What does Morgan do?
CLIENT: He’s a (ph?)
THERAPIST: Oh he is?
CLIENT: Yeah, he’s like he’s sort of bible (ph?) into (ph) but his degree is in (ph?) but I think he sort of pays the bills monthly like teaching Greek.
THERAPIST: Uh huh. [00:14:39]
CLIENT: Uhm yeah so he’s (pause) yeah like he’s an assistant, he’s a (ph?) old testament at WM but his, his degree is in (ph?).
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: uhm and so…
THERAPIST: Is he tenured?
CLIENT: What? Uhm, I think he’s tenured track I don’t’ know when he comes up for tenure.
THERAPIST: Oh okay.
CLIENT: I think another year or two. (pause) Uhm…[00:15:10]
THERAPIST: Your point was that Morgan’s taking (inaudible).
CLIENT: Yeah (inaudible) Yeah (inaudible) but I’m also insanely curious I mean like, how is he, like what’s going on? (chuckle) so uhm (pause) yeah. [00:15:36]
CLIENT: (inaudible) Uhm and by that I actually just mean like (pause) taking classes with him and like just talking to him about this stuff and like taking classes (inaudible) Andy actually uhm (inaudible) that group.
THERAPIST: Mmm hm.
[Pause 00:15:56 to 00:16:09]
CLIENT: You know we’re sort of a (pause) so if I just take like me and Morgan and Dan (sp?) we’re sort of a group of like pretty deeply flawed, often very, very unhappy people but like talking about this stuff is just the best, like it’s just the best. [00:16:34]
[Pause till 00:16:48]
THERAPIST: You really miss that part of it?
CLIENT: What?
THERAPIST: You really miss that part of it?
CLIENT: Yeah (pause) yeah (pause) yeah it’s like a fireworks show every day. Or you know three times a week but… (chuckles) [00:17:13]
(Pause)
CLIENT: I think that is what I miss (inaudible) yeah.
THERAPIST: Mmmm hm. [00:17:27]
CLIENT: those like those experiences I was thinking about (sniffles) uhm a professor that I had as an undergrad he taught, he teaches like modern drama, I took one class with him, (inaudible) English major (inaudible) doing a lot of different things. Uhm and (pause) it was just like it hit me right at the right time in terms of where my intellectual development was like the sorts of things he was talking about. Basically it was like Intro to critical theory in the 20th century through modern drama uhm and I remember not that much of it but I remember it was like fireworks every day. (pause) uhm… [00:18:15]
THERAPIST: That’s pretty awesome.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (pause) I also liked him because I went to talk to him about doing a PhD and he didn’t really say so in so many words but he was like ‘that’s not a good idea’ (chuckles) Basically he was like ‘you will not find a job in this field’ (chuckles and sniffles) or you know (pause) it’s a brutal place, but… (pause)
[Pause 00:18:49 to 00:19:38]
CLIENT: (inaudible and sniffling) I get angry (inaudible) the time and it’s like (pause) I feel bad about (pause) what were some of the best times of my life, I feel guilty about it, I can’t feel good about it anymore. Uhm (pause) you know sometimes, some days it’s like fuck that I’m going to feel good about it but, that’s (pause) you know (pause) (inaudible) like it’s a struggle, it’s hard. [00:20:18]
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
[Pause to 00:21:05]
CLIENT: I’m thinking about (sniffles)…
THERAPIST: Mmm hm.
CLIENT: institutions like (pause) something about like (pause) wanting to put myself, wanting to find situations where I’m sort of cared for or taken care of and…
THERAPIST: Mmm hm.
CLIENT: Thinking about the church it’s like it’s a big institution it’s…
[Crosstalk at 00:21:47]
THERAPIST: Also you’re doing what you want.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: What matters to you, yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)
THERAPIST: Would you uhm (inaudible) expressing some enthusiasm (inaudible) today in a way that I don’t think you don’t always do. [00:22:06]
CLIENT: Yeah (pause) I feel like enthusiasm often doesn’t work out that well for me uhm (pause) but (pause) (inaudible) I sort of feel that enthusiasm is sort of my natural state, (pause) I just get really excited (pause) but I don’t (pause) but I miss that too
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: I miss being a person.
THERAPIST: Mm hum. [clears throat at 00:23:03]
[Pause till 00:24:21]
THERAPIST: Yeah seems like maybe you’re (pause) worried about feeling that enthusiasm for thinking and talking about (inaudible) the things you are here cause it could leave you to be very disappointed or one sided or something.
CLIENT: Yeah (pause) I don’t know, I guess I feel like (pause) it feels to me rightly or wrongly that (pause) my enthusiasm has been sort of exploited quite a lot in the past and like “oh you’re really enthusiastic about this job, that’s good cause we’re not going to pay you very much’ uhm (pause) and (pause) yeah it feels like (pause) yeah it feels like it’s (pause) both makes me more vulnerable and a bit naïve and yeah it leaves me open to being disappointed. [00:25:43]
[Pause to 00:26:44]
THERAPIST: (clears throat)
[Pause to 00:27:07]
CLIENT: I don’t’ know, I think this is, I don’t know I feel like, with thinking about the priesthood I…
THERAPIST: Mmm hm.
CLIENT: It’s like I’m sort of trying to go as far down this path as I can without actually saying ‘yes this is what I want,’ uhm, I don’t feel like it’s going to work out that well for me (chuckles) I don’t’ think that’s really sustainable. Uhm, it’s like I don’t (pause) (sigh) I don’t know… [pause 00:27:38 to 00:27:53]
Yeah it feels (pause) it feels too risky to allow myself to be disappointed in some big way again, it feels like that would just kill me. [00:28:06]
[Pause to 00:28:47]
CLIENT: (inaudible) I can see myself hedging my bets and I can say like it’s not getting anywhere like it’s not, it’s not going to work but…
THERAPIST: I feel like there’s something else going on here, like (pause) I don’t have my head all the way around it but uh it (pause) there’s some that can, I think, seem a little faux naïve in the disappointment. What I have in mind is, so like with Dan (sp?) you’re not exactly using him as an example but he has come up and he seems part of how you’re thinking about this and you know of course you feel bad and guilty about what happened with him, I understand, but as far as I know it wasn’t exactly like anyone fooled you about anything.
CLIENT: (chuckles) No. [00:30:04]
THERAPIST: And similarly, like as you’ve made very clear, you’re a priest’s kid, and you’ve seen how things work, and you know what happens like in the institution of the church probably at any number of levels. And I’m not saying things couldn’t go badly but sort of (inaudible) the idea of being disappointed the way that you’re farming it seems to me (pause) anticipating that something’s going to happen out of the.. maybe I’m just not getting it… but like something’s going to happen out of the blue that you wouldn’t have expected like that you would have had a more idealistic more positive vision of the institution than what you found. Which just sounds very much at odds with how much I know you know it [00:31:00]
CLIENT: Yeah I guess I was thinking about it, I’m thinking about it more, less in terms of like I will enter the ministry and then it will like crash and burn in some way or it won’t be what I expect it to be? And more in terms of like I will say ‘I want to be a priest’ and then it’s like either because you know the bishop is like “nope” which they can do or uh you know that it just won’t work out. That like I won’t be able to do this thing (inaudible) it’s the thing itself will be disappointing. But it’s, you’re right it’s not that I’m (pause) I don’t know I feel like, I feel like it never is, it never should be out of the blue but it always ends up being out of the blue. Like it always is, (pause) you know, with Avi (sp?) like yeah I should have fucking known like I knew that there was no way it was going to end well, like I knew that it was and I convinced myself that we could be better than other people, that we could fix it.
THERAPIST: Mmmm hum. [00:32:15]
CLIENT: Or make it work, uhm (pause) I don’t know.
THERAPIST: So I mean I guess we’re on the same page that it seems you do have a hand in it. That’s really…
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Where I was headed. I’m not saying that people can’t be, or institutions for that matter…
CLIENT: (sniffles) [00:32:32]
THERAPIST: Can be terribly disappointing, I just have the sense that in the instances you’re bringing up, I think that’s the one we’re not really talking about so much is the one where, you know, which also hangs, looms really large and that’s which is academia.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Generally and you’re time at Brown… and I don’t know about that one in terms of your sort of having a hand in your disappointment. Like pretending something u knew to be a certain way was going to be different or…
CLIENT: Mmm hm.
THERAPIST: Or you know whether, you didn’t know and it was. But I guess that’s sort of, so that’s kind of (inaudible) institutions can’t be terribly disappointing but it seems a little more complicated than just that you know?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That’s all, that’s really where I was going.
CLIENT: Yeah (pause) yeah (inaudible) with Brown, it’s like yeah I chose to leave, that was my decision, I left. But it, it just feels overwhelmingly like that was something that happened to me. Uhm, and I don’t (pause) I don’t know why uhm… [00:33:43]
[Pause to 00:34:00]
CLIENT: Yeah, like I knew that it, you know I knew that academia was competitive. I did not know how bad things were.
THERAPIST: Hmmmm [00:34:09]
CLIENT: Uhm.
[Pause to 00:34:46]
CLIENT: I think it’s hard for me to think of disappointment as (pause) except in terms of it’s either…
THERAPIST: (Clears throat)
CLIENT: Completely my fault or it is completely outside of my control.
THERAPIST: Hmmmm.
CLIENT: Uhm (pause) that I feel like if there were any way that I could of sort of anticipated this or any if there’s sense in which I had something to do with it that (pause) that (sigh) that it’s my fault, uhm, I don’t know. [00:35:23]
[Pause to 00:35:47]
THERAPIST: You know that does sound like you… think that way. (inaudible) is what you just said about Brown is kind of the other way around. That, though you decided to leave, it very much felt like something that was done to you.
CLIENT: Mmm hm.
THERAPIST: So, I don’t doubt either one of those things, but I don’t understand, you know like I’m…
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:36:14]
[Pause to 00:36:28]
CLIENT: It’s just, it feels like it could either be something that was done to me or something that I completely did to myself.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And not both
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: Or (inaudible) uhm…
[Pause 00:36:42 to 00:37:14]
THERAPIST: Well that actually makes sense to me in terms of what we were talking about on Wed, uhm in that yeah I think the level at which it was sort of mutual or interactive is much more frightening.
CLIENT: Mmmm yeah.
THERAPIST: Where you know you worry it was because of you know needs you had that couldn’t be met that you know, you were (ph?) or something.
CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. (pause) yeah. [00:37:46]
THERAPIST: (inaudible) in more kind of black or white terms (inaudible) one bad actor.
CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. [00:38:14]
THERAPIST: (pause) It’s kind of like… (ph?)
CLIENT: Yeah.
[Pause to 00:38:47]
CLIENT: To sort of back track a little bit here, I feel like it’s also, I don’t know, I feel like there’s sort of a magical thinking thing.
THERAPIST: (clears throat) Mmm-hm.
CLIENT: Where I feel like as long as I don’t say this is actually really what I want, then I stand a chance of getting it. As soon as I just come out and say it and own that, then like it’ll go away.
THERAPIST: I see. [00:39:07]
[Pause to 00:39:42]
THERAPIST: Yeah I know that’s something you’re afraid of with lots of things, I mean including me and this.
CLIENT: Yes.
[Pause to 00:40:04]
CLIENT: Yeah.
[Pause to 00:41:58]
THERAPIST: (inaudible) I gather that like you know one of the (ph?) to be right or not that’s certainly part of the worry that you’re going to say yes I want this.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: This is really important to me and then in a way that might even feel like it’s because of that.
CLIENT: No it does not feel like it’s because of that. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: (inaudible)
[Crosstalk at 00:42:23]
CLIENT: Yeah.
CLIENT: (Pause) yeah it’s like (pause) (inaudible) think that’s one of the sort of nonsensical thoughts that I sort of believe so strongly that I forget that they don’t, that other people don’t think that way, uhm so it’s like…
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: We should stop.
END TRANSCRIPT
