TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Hey.

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: So this morning, we got ready to drive to our couple’s counseling appointment and so we started driving the car and we realized there was a flat tire. So we didn’t make it to that. Because it takes 45 minutes to get there by subway and so I think we rescheduled for this afternoon. I just, I really don’t deal well with situations like that—with cars breaking down, specifically. I really don’t deal well with it because my expectation is that somehow it is my fault and that James’s going to be really really angry at me about it and I have to do something to fix it, but whatever I do is going to be the wrong thing and James’s going to get really angry at me. [00:01:14]

And so I’m sort of stuck between like—I can’t just leave the scene. I can’t just walk away and be like, “I’m going to go take care of myself. Let me know if you need anything.” But I can’t think of anything to say or do and so I just like—it’s really bad. So I did end up just leaving and I just sort of get myself under control and I get so scared. (inaudible at 00:01:59) and actually being just crisis is way less bad. So like when we a couple summer ago, when the propeller fell out of the boat. That would have been really bad except that the water was really high and the waves were about to smash us against the rocks and capsize the boat, so it was actually a near death situation and I’m fine there. (Laughs) So we just hopped out and fixed it and then it was okay. [00:02:34]

But that was just always how it went. Something would go wrong and somehow it would be my fault and pop would yell at us. Sometimes it was Amanda’s fault or Jason’s fault, but usually it was Amanda’s or my fault or both of us at the same time. And it would be like the world was ending and there’s like nothing I could do except sort of like clamp down and wait for it to be done.

That was my morning. (Sighs) I talked about it with James afterward and it wasn’t actually my fault. I thought that this one (inaudible at 00:03:28) because I noticed that the tire was a little bit low a couple days ago and I’ve been like, “Well, I’ll check the air at some point” and then I forgot. But it turned out it picked up two nails so there wasn’t anything I could—and it was driving fine the last time I drove it. There wasn’t anything I could do. Whatever. And James has a kit to plug it so he just plugged it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:03:53)

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s like… I don’t really know. So he passed it. It’s fine. (Pause) So we sort of made a plan for what to do next time something like this happens and basically James’s going to want to be in charge of fixing it anyway and he’ll tell me if he needs my help. And so I’ll just say, “Okay. Well, I’m going to go away and make some tea and that’ll be okay.” You know, we’ll see how it actually works, but it’s good to have a plan. (Pause)

THERAPIST: [You get really terrified] (ph). [00:05:25]

CLIENT: Yeah. It (ph) was funny, like, papa never hit us and I’ve never been with someone whose hit me, but what I imagine is just that James’s just going to punch me in the face. Like that’s what’s going to happen. [He was] (ph) like that would be the preferable outcome. (Pause) I can’t really think when I’m like that. Like, I can’t make myself form words. I don’t know. It’s like an eclipse. [00:06:32] (Pause)

It helps that like, you know what’s happening. I can tell myself that you’re not reacting to this situation, you’re reacting to other situations and you know, pass. You just need to go wait for it to pass. Like, once I can get to the point where I—and it gets worse because I feel like I still have to be able to function in it. Like, I feel like I can’t just say, “Okay. I can’t deal with this and I have to go and pay attention to what’s going on with me.” I feel like—it’s hard for me to…

THERAPIST: You’re (inaudible at 00:07:36) to stay on the hook.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s hard for me to sort of admit that this is what’s happening or say that this is enough of an excuse for me not to deal with this right now.

THERAPIST: Right. That does remind me of, a little bit, of sometimes in here, where you’ll feel really overcome and upset but I feel like it’s still really important that you, you know, [for me to] (ph) come here and hear what you’re saying and… (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. Sort of after the fact when I think about it, like, “No. It’s not that important that I be able to deal with something right then.” Because in some ways it’s only this bad when it’s not an emergency that has to be taken care of right then. Most of the time, you know, when we break down on the side of the road, okay, then we have to do something right then. But most of the time it would be just fine to say, “Okay. Break for 20 minutes and then we’ll come back and deal with it.” And that’s sort of my approach in problem solving anyway. (Chuckles) Put it down. Calm down, and then come back and fix it. [00:09:02]

But, I don’t know. I feel like it’s really irresponsible or something. (Pause) I’m having a rough time. (inaudible at 00:09:28) was like in some ways just really wonderful and in some ways really stressful. I really hate saying this, but like, it was great but it really was not what I needed right now. I don’t know. I think it’s just like—I have no idea what’s up with him. He didn’t want to wait for the bus. So we’re [standing outside] (ph) at my friend’s condo and going downtown for dinner, going out to the Square.

THERAPIST: South Denver? [00:10:17]

CLIENT: South Denver. Yeah, sorry. South side isn’t actually a thing in the city. (Laughs) (inaudible at 00:10:33) going to the Square area and so I was sort of planning it because I was like, “Oh, well there’s this restaurant and it’s like really good.” And so I was like, “We should take the bus.” There’s a bus that leaves from like two blocks away from Marla’s apartment and goes to two blocks away from the restaurant and like, that is really as good as it gets. (Laughs) And pop (ph) was like, “No. We should drive. We’ve got a car.” And I was like, “We really don’t want to be parking downtown.” And he was like, “Let’s look up parking spaces.” I looked it up. I was like, “It’s going to be like $10 to $30 if we can find a parking garage downtown.” And he just like kept going. And he’d be like, “Well, you know. Whatever you want to do.” And I’d be like, “Okay. Let’s take the bus.” And he’d be like, “No. Let’s not do that.” So finally, he was like, “Well, you know, let’s just not make any decisions.” And I was like, “That’s not actually an option.” (Laughs) [00:11:27]

So we did eventually take the bus and none of us had the Next Bus App, and he couldn’t handle the thought of waiting for longer than three minutes for a bus to get there. And there were taxis going by. I was like, “We could take a taxi.” And he’d be like, “No. No. We’ll wait for the bus.” And then he would just like wander away or be like, “Gosh. When is this bus coming?” Or kind of say something snarky. And you know, it was the bus that comes every 15 minutes, which again, is about as good as you’re going to get. This is just living in a city. This is the way it is. (Chuckles) [00:12:24]

And this was like the end of the day. It had been like a whole day of things like that. Like, he also wouldn’t wait for the crosswalk signal ever. He’d be like, “Well, we can go.” And I’d be like, “I don’t ever jaywalk unless I know the area because traffic patterns are hard to predict sometimes and people drive fast. He’d be like, “Okay. Okay. Well, let’s just go this time.” (Chuckles) And then just starts wandering. It’s not like he’s hurrying. He doesn’t walk fast. (Laughs) He just wanders out into the road. So on the way home, when he started to like—at first I was like, “You know, the bus will be here in a second.” Like, “Jason (sp?), look up when the bus is coming. It runs every 15 minutes. It won’t be that long.” Trying to sort of reassure him, and when he started it out on the way home, it helped that he had something to drink. And I was like, “You really don’t like waiting for the bus do you?” And I think I kind of shamed him or maybe shaming is too strong of a word, but pointed out to him what was going on. (Laughs) And so he just shut up and waited for the bus. [00:13:40]

THERAPIST: All that was really quite stressful for you.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: That had cost you a lot.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it’s hard to really explain to people because when I relate any individual thing, it doesn’t seem like something that is more than like a minor irritation. But it all just like adds up and it also is sort of freighted (ph) in ways that are hard to—are weighted. I don’t know how to say it.

THERAPIST: Freighted.

CLIENT: Freighted. Yes. Thank you. I was thinking of the word “freighted” in my head (inaudible at 00:14:39).

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:14:46)

CLIENT: (Laughs) But, you know, he’s trying to come and do something nice and spend time with me and take care of me, and so like I feel like that just puts more pressure on me to be well or be able to handle it or how what he’s doing is actually what I need. (Pause) [00:15:47]

We did walk by my church and made fun of all the statues. That was fun. (Chuckles) There’s a really great one –I don’t know if you’ve seen this one in the Square, but there’s a statue of [], who’s the very famous preacher the church was built for, but he’s like standing and got one hand on the bible and the other hand is like making the peace sign, or like the blessing. And then behind him, I’m pretty sure it’s supposed to be Jesus, but it’s got like this big, long Monks cowl and looks very grim and ominous, and he’s got his hand on his shoulder. It looks just like—I’ve (ph) said it looked like the angel of death, Jason (sp?) said it looked like a scythe lord. It was ridiculous. (Laughs) [00:16:49]

That’s sort of what we do as a family—mocking authority. I feel good (ph) about that. (Pause)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:17:27) when you’re talking about that, absolutely I believe that (inaudible 00:17:37) makes sense, but it also (ph) seems like you’re trying to kind of veer away from how really quite stressful it was to have your father in town this weekend, but (inaudible at 00:18:03) had a way that sort of kept this conversation going. I mean, (inaudible at 00:18:10) trying to keep the conversation from breaking down a little bit.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess so.

THERAPIST: Even though I think you’re really into (ph) at that.

CLIENT: That pretty much describes my weekend. Yeah. I’m not doing very well. (Pause) Sort of feels like nobody really has the space or time for me to not get better now. Like, while I was in the hospital, took a week basically off, staying in touch with people, or doing things that I was supposed to do. And well, now that’s over and everybody sort of needs me again. [00:19:18]

And you know, James (ph) needs to not be worried about me and the undergraduates (ph) need me to go back to work, and people at my church need me to sort of pick up the things that I dropped and… (Pause) I know that this is the exact wrong approach to this but I sort of feel like, well, I can just keep it together and act like I’m okay and maybe in a few days I’ll feel better. Maybe I’ll be okay. (inaudible at 00:20:06) (Laughs)

THERAPIST: You know, one thing I’m thinking is—I feel bad. I think it might have been, maybe I should have said last week, “Let’s figure out how to make it through your fathers coming this weekend. Your [side of the hospital] (ph). Your, you know, kind of recovering and that’s always really overwhelming and costs a lot when he comes to visit. And I know he’s well intentioned, and I know you’re going to feel really guilty, but this is just not what you need right now. [00:21:14]

I’m not saying that because you’re telling me anything about the visit that I’m surprised by. I mean, I’ve heard this one before.

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: I don’t mean like, “Oh my gosh. Didn’t see it coming.” I just mean, I wish I had (inaudible at 00:21:34).

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: (Pause) It would have been really hard for me to tell him not to come. I’m not sure what the balance there would have been. Like, which would have been worse?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:22:02)

CLIENT: And that was sort of like why I didn’t tell him not to come.

THERAPIST: Yeah. My hope would have been to try to find some way to take it off of you a little bit. Like, you know, “I’m saying this.”

CLIENT: That would be great. (Laughs) (Pause) Doctor called to check up on me a few days ago, so that felt really good.

THERAPIST: That’s good. Yeah. (Pause) [00:22:50]

CLIENT: Yeah, you say that and it feels like, in some ways very nice or maybe gratifying to hear, but it’s also just like really unsettling. Like, I don’t know what to do with that.

THERAPIST: Do you know which part of it is unsettling? Like, the fact that I’m saying I wish I had done something different or [the fact of what it was] (ph)? [00:23:56]

CLIENT: I think the fact that you’re saying you had done something different. Particularly that you wished you had done something that like, under normal circumstances you wouldn’t do. Like that’s not how you really roll. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Not really how I roll. Yeah, that’s true. (Chuckles)

CLIENT: I don’t know. I guess it’s unsettling that you would think that was important. (Pause) [00:24:33]

I guess like, I get very, sort of tightly wedged in this mindset that when things are hard like this, I should just handle it. Like, I have to just sort of push through. You know, I think because if I don’t, I have to deal with them and things are so hard. (Cries)

It sort of feels worse to have you say that “Maybe things don’t have to be this hard.”

THERAPIST: In a sense that it would be easier if I said, “Well, you need to push through?”

CLIENT: I don’t know if easier. It would make more sense. So, it was easier in some ways. Easier to sort of get my mind around. Not actually easier to do. (Chuckles) [00:26:27]

These kids—I’m sick again. Like, really? You have to be fucking kidding me. (Laughs) Ursula (sp?) still does have a cold and definitely still coughing on me and I was just sort of hoped that maybe she wasn’t contagious anymore. [00:27:49]

THERAPIST: Maybe I also made you nervous that I was saying something not exactly that I made a mistake but something in that direction?

CLIENT: Yes, which is weird because it doesn’t make me nervous when I think you’ve made a mistake. (Laughs) Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: It seems somehow related to me to your idea that you should just keep pushing through. The idea that I don’t make mistakes. [00:29:42]

CLIENT: It sort of feels like it’s related to—one of the ways that I deal when things are bad is just having the assumption that what I’m doing is the best thing that can be done and that there’s not a way to make it easier. [00:30:27] (Pause)

When I was in the hospital, in my room, there was a board with a like, “Write an inspirational thought or write your thoughts and post them.” And so like various other people had posted things and one of the things was like, just push through it, was what it said. And I got another sticky note and put it on top because I didn’t want to look at that all day. [00:31:15] (Pause)

THERAPIST: I guess it’s related to the idea that whatever problem (ph) there is, it’s kind of on you. And on you to deal with.

CLIENT: It sort of reminds me of the feeling when the car breaks down, I have to be able to sort of be present and help and deal with it there. Because (ph) even going away to take care of myself is (inaudible at 00:32:47) or like abdicating (ph) responsibilities.

THERAPIST: Which is why the car broke down in the first place?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I mean, that’s how you feel. Like, it was your fault. You must have dropped the ball (inaudible at 00:33:06) someway.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I always feel that way regardless of whether there’s any possibility that it’s my fault. Like, sometimes if it’s clear to me that it’s definitely not my fault, I feel slightly less guilty about it. (Laughs) (Pause)

THERAPIST: I think otherwise, you’re in a world where other people make mistakes and also where your feelings matter.

CLIENT: You can’t have (ph) that.

THERAPIST: Much more (inaudible at 00:34:01).

CLIENT: Yeah. If my feelings matter then I have to deal with how unfair things are. (Pause) (inaudible at 00:36:27) a couple of hours of sleep. I’m going to couple’s counseling to make it up and I have something at church this evening. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I guess I’m—a little bit to comment like, okay. It’s one thing for me to be (inaudible 00:37:39).

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know. It’s hard for me to think of a real alternative to sort of pushing through things.

THERAPIST: Well, I think the other one you had in mind if falling apart. I’m not saying that is the only other way, but it’s just the other one you had in mind.

CLIENT: I mean, I feel like I can just sort of push through or I can draw out of things or I can go and just be sort of a wreck. I’m not sure I could do the third one even if I tried. [00:38:44] (Pause)

THERAPIST: [In a way] (ph) you’re also saying you have more flexibility with this when you’re here with me.

CLIENT: More flexibility with what? [00:39:39]

THERAPIST: With, like how much you let in, with being upset, but it’s not a catastrophe.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I’m not saying that’s all the time here, I’m just saying it’s sometimes.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I feel like, I just want there to be more options so badly that it just really hurts when there aren’t and it sort of feels like you’re asking me to ignore—like I feel like I don’t necessarily consider that there might be more options for good reason sometimes or for—I don’t know. [00:41:19]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think I know what you mean. That you feel like I’m saying you’re sort of in a way, distorting the reality here by imagining that it’s either pushing through or falling apart. Actually, there are other things you could be doing so why aren’t you doing them? Something like that?

CLIENT: Yes. But then I feel like so much the narrative of my depression is me saying, “There has to be more options. This has to not be the way it has to be for me.” And people saying, “No. Actually, there aren’t really any other options.” [00:42:10]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know, which is why people like bro (ph) in the hospital piss me off so much because they’re like, “Oh yeah. There are totally more options.” And (inaudible at 00:42:34), “Oh, well have you just tried medicine right (ph)?” And like, “Yes. I tried.” (Cries)

THERAPIST: I’m not sure if this is clear, but I was intending (inaudible at 00:42:49) was different, but quite scary.

CLIENT: I think so. Sorry.

THERAPIST: I think often when you’re here talking to me, you do have some feeling of having other options.

CLIENT: (Pause) (Crying)

THERAPIST: Sorry. I have one more question about that, which is –I guess maybe you answered it. So what you were saying about my implication that you should have more options—how in the world, was what you were thinking about but didn’t follow from what I said.

CLIENT: Yes, I think so.

THERAPIST: Okay. All right. (inaudible at 00:44:51) You’re not doing something right. And this is on you.

CLIENT: I guess so. Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: And that’s what was so upsetting just now?

CLIENT: The thing is like, it’s just so hard and I want it to be easier, and I feel like I’ve had all of these doors shut in my face, one after the other. And to them, when you say, “Oh, we could have made it easier this way. I wish we had done that.” That’s just a very abrupt change. In some ways, I feel like for me to keep looking for ways to make it easier, I just know that that’s just going to be more doors shut in my face and that’s hard. That’s worse in some ways. Does that make sense? [00:47:36]

THERAPIST: I think so.

CLIENT: I know that’s not what you were like actually trying to do or going with…

THERAPIST: But I was, in a way, (inaudible at 00:47:50) which is sort of the thing that I never do. If I had the (inaudible at 00:47:45). And you’re really wary of that approach because there’s something that always comes back to bite you. You said the door gets shut in your face. I guess it might be another way to say it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like I just get my hopes up. I’m not necessarily doing anything that’s going to work.

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