TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: Does that work as a regular time for you?
THERAPIST: It doesn’t probably. But I can – the person I usually see is overseas for a little bit. And the time difference works better that way, but I can ask. It’s much better for you.
CLIENT: Well, right now I have something schedule – like this, and also Hebrew is moving to Mondays. And that is during a lunch hour, but I can probably meet with them at 11:00 instead of at 12:00 and then get here at 12:00 your time. One of the two will have to move, but I think that I can move them if I can’t move this.
THERAPIST: And you’re still seeing David on Monday mornings?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I can probably push it to 10:00 but that probably doesn’t help you.
CLIENT: Well, I see David at 8:15, so I can probably meet at 10:00.
THERAPIST: Do you want to meet at 10:00?
CLIENT: No, I really don’t.
THERAPIST: Let’s nix that.
CLIENT: I think I’ll probably see if the Hebrew people can meet at 11:00. I think they can do that. [1:34]
THERAPIST: If it doesn’t work with them let me know so I can see what I can do.
CLIENT: Okay. I feel like what we’ve talked about in the last couple of sessions has really shaken me up a lot, or at least I’ve felt very shaken up. I don’t really know what to do about that. [2:25] It feels like – I feel like I have these kind of endless conversations with you in my head, and then I show up and I like, can’t talk. This is hard. (pause) And I find that like – I find in my conversations with James and Franco, I talk about therapy and you in sort of a defensive way, or it feels like in a defensive way. (pause) [3:55] I don’t know whether I’m feeling so bad like, because of what we’re talking about in here or whether I’m just feeling really bad, but I feel really bad anyway. And it sort of -
THERAPIST: I think it has some relation to what’s going on in here, but it’s not clear quite what. [4:53]
CLIENT: So I Googled you. And just like, an analysis, sort of read about it. Just sort of, three minutes in, I’m really anxious about this, aren’t I? I just kept reading. So there’s that. It’s nice having the name Tanya. It’s totally useless to Google myself.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Benjamin Appelbaum’s a bit tougher that way. [5:47]
CLIENT: That seems to be an area where like, etiquette hasn’t really caught up yet. I just assumed that, talking with friends who do a lot of online dating. Well, is it okay to Google the person. I assume that yes, it’s expected, but that doesn’t seem to be the assumption. I think a lot of people just do it and then feel bad about it. But I don’t know. [6:35] Anyway, if I didn’t know, I could tell where your office was. And, I actually found the title of your thesis, and that’s about it.
THERAPIST: I think you can actually find the thesis online, and if you’re ever having insomnia –
[Laughter]
CLIENT: I don’t think I’m that anxious.
THERAPIST: Then, you know. It will be very helpful.
CLIENT: No, I think my main curiosity would be to see how you write. [7:30] (pause) I always think about other people’s writing. It’s a very like – I don’t know. I always think that editing another person’s writing is a very strange thing for me. It feels like a very intimate thing for me. I don’t think other people think of it like that. [8:22] (pause) Obby was a terrible writer.
THERAPIST: Really?
CLIENT: Well, no. He wasn’t a terrible writer, but he wasn’t as good as he thought he was. These sort of sloppy tendencies that academia encourages. He had a lot of – he would get very convoluted in his sentence structure in ways that were totally unnecessary and sort of everything that he would say he would kind of hedge it around with things like rather, or sort of, or not exclusively or things just sort of weaken the statement such that it was maybe more precise, but it was much harder to get at what he was actually saying. [9:26] James also is not as good of a writer as he thinks he is.
Actually, that I think is more of a – his style is quite a bit different from mine, and also the things that he writes are generally not things that interest me very much. I guess actually, I haven’t really read anything of his that I have the background to understand since we were in college. I guess I don’t really have much of a basis for saying that. Like, chemistry writing is, you know, it’s – The analogy I think of it is like making a frittata where if the vegetables are the formulas and the data, there’s just a little bit of egg in there. [10:57] Just enough words to kind of make it all stand.
THERAPIST: That’s funny.
CLIENT: (pause) [11:46] I’m going to work for a couple of hours. (inaudible at 11:55) has a conference call. I’ll go round the kids up and feed them dinner and so forth. That will be good. (pause) It seems very strange. So I’ve been writing back and forth with Heather Kate about her move and offering to help. [12:34]
THERAPIST: She’s moving?
CLIENT: Yeah. She’s moving here to teach at – her husband is teaching nearby. So it seems like it’s – she’s having this baby in early June, moving in July or August. She’s not going to have a teaching position for the next year.
THERAPIST: This is her second?
CLIENT: Yeah. They have to put the house on the market in two weeks. I think they bought the house when she was about to pop with the first one.
THERAPIST: They like to do everything once. Or, they’re stuck doing everything at once.
CLIENT: She really doesn’t like doing everything at once. But at the same time, it always seems to happen. [13:22] But it’s interesting. She was always my first good friend. We were friends when we were 14 and 15. And now she’s trying to sell a house and trying to figure out childcare for her toddler. And so I’m offering to take care of Violet, because that’s what I do for a job. And like, while she and Diego move. It’s like, in some ways, the things that we talk about are quite different, but the way that we talk and the sort of manner is still quite similar. It feels very strange. It’s fun and nice, but also very strange. [14:13] I guess I never really – I never expected to have relationships that lasted long enough for that to be the case. (pause) I don’t suppose you anybody out there, any therapists.
THERAPIST: I can look.
CLIENT: Can you? Thanks.
THERAPIST: For Heather Kate? Any particular criteria other than somewhere near there?
CLIENT: I don’t think so. At least, if there are any, I don’t know any. [15:45] She put on Facebook a while back a picture that she had taken of – it was like, a paper plate that was painted and it had “boys suck” painted on it. And apparently, I gave it to her. I don’t remember that at all. But it’s like yeah, that’s about right. We were sort of partners in drama. [16:42] Her husband is the eldest son of the woman who was the head of our high school. He also was roommates with my sister’s ex-boyfriend in college. And she dated his younger brother first.
THERAPIST: Your sister.
CLIENT: No, Heather Kate. The brother first. There’s been some drama. (pause) [17:47] I don’t know if that relationship’s going to go.
THERAPIST: Between she and Diego, you mean?
CLIENT: No, between she and me, actually. Since we were in I feel like when we went to college and basically sort of grew apart pretty rapidly. Mind you, it was within six months of starting college she was in the hospital for anorexia. She was totally broke down. And anyway, we just haven’t gotten back in a significant way since. She was in my wedding. I was in her wedding.
THERAPIST: In the meantime it’s been kind of long distance.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It feels to me like, we used to be really, really important to each other. And given the chance, we might be really important to each other again. We might have changed and now that might not work. I don’t know. [19:26] I feel she’s someone with whom I can pick up where we left off, maybe. (pause) I like being here so much, and I don’t know how to say that. I feel so bad saying it. So, that’s the thing. [20:29]
THERAPIST: Thank you for saying so. I imagine it’s very hard to do.
CLIENT: I don’t know why. I keep sort of touching back on like, last week or the week before where you referred to my saying something positive, and I had no idea what you were talking about. It doesn’t feel positive. It doesn’t feel good. [21:20] (pause)
THERAPIST: I guess I’m not – I understand that. I’m not clear in what way it feels bad. I get that it does, I just am not sure how.
CLIENT: (pause) [22:15] I worry that – I worry a little bit about your sort of misunderstanding the nature of my needing to be here and feeling strongly about you. Mostly, I just feel like if I say anything about it, I feel like it’ll be gone, or I will leave or I will go away. It feels like it’s going to go away anyway.
THERAPIST: That’s really going to screw it up.
CLIENT: The sort of death code that I have for sort of hanging onto this for another week and not saying anything about it. [23:22] (pause)
THERAPIST: Are you clear what it is that I’m going to misunderstand?
CLIENT: Not really. You know, like, the obvious is that you’ll think it’s like a sexual thing or that I have a crush on your or I’m in love with you, none of which are the case. But I also sort of know better. I know that you can’t allow that. I think it’s more like I think that – (pause). [24:46] It’s more that I think that it will be frightening to you in some way. Or like, too much for you. What I want to say is like, I’m sort of casting it in the light of an inappropriate relationship, because it feels like anything would be too much for you. I don’t think I said that right. (pause) [25:59]
THERAPIST: Well, I haven’t thought of any questions. The first is I don’t usually ask questions. But I had an impression that in a way, some of this is very clear in your mind and it’s very hard to say which is different from like, having thoughts that feel very disorganized or have formed for nonsensical where, I probably would intend to ask questions. I guess I want to explain that to make it clear that I think at times, you worry about not being clear. I can imagine my asking questions would convey like, I need you to be clear. But it’s more like, with what we’re talking about now, it seems like it would make it easier for you to say what you’re trying to say. That’s why I’m explaining myself. [27:40] And the thing that I am not, according to what you said, is the relation between how on one side what you feel – what you are feeling about me would be overwhelming. For me it would be too much. And something about an inappropriateness in our relationship.
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess it seems like – So as I try to like, construct your mind, I – what sort of comes to mind for me over and over is like, well, if I say that I care about him, Chad will think that I care about him in these ways that are not appropriate. But I don’t think that’s actually accurate, but then it doesn’t go away when I say well, I don’t think I really need to worry about that. [29:15]
THERAPIST: There are two worries there if I understand.
CLIENT: Yeah. So I think that like, so it feels to me like, really I’m just worried that like, my caring about you at all or needing you at all will be too much for you. But that’s not something that makes quite as much sense on the surface. So I guess I do have both of those worries, but the one is sort of standing in place of the other. Does that make more sense?
THERAPIST: I think so. What I’ve got is that the first worry is that I will misconstrue you as having romantic feelings for me which I guess -
CLIENT: I guess I also do worry that I have romantic feelings for you.
THERAPIST: I think you’re terrified about that. [30:17]
CLIENT: Yeah. It’s really scary.
THERAPIST: And you seem to have the idea that that would be inappropriate.
CLIENT: Yeah, I do. That’s another one that like, when I talk sense to myself, it doesn’t go away.
THERAPIST: And then the other worry which you kind of in a way like, agree with more or are more invested in than with the first two. Does that make sense?
CLIENT: Yeah. I just feel a little foolish, that’s all. [31:27]
THERAPIST: Because of being inconsistent in a way? Why worry about this, but I kind of know otherwise, but I still worry.
CLIENT: Yeah. Both because being inconsistent and because of sort of like, I feel I’m sort of desperately trying to present this to you in a way that does not leave open the possibility of what I’m worried about is actually founded in anything. (pause) [32:25]
THERAPIST: I kind of understand that for you the thought of having romantic feelings for me is a terrifying worry. And it’s unclear if you’re kind of pushing back on it because it’s terrifying or because they’re there in a way that you kind of haven’t let yourself see or something like that. [33:27] And what seems clear is that you’re also worried that – like it’s almost a done deal that having contact with and relying on me is going to go away. Or, I won’t be here in the same way. [34:33]
CLIENT: This is less scary than I was expecting.
THERAPIST: That’s good.
CLIENT: Yeah. I’m rereading Jayne Eyre. Have you read it?
THERAPIST: A long time ago.
CLIENT: It’s so good. It’s a waste on the high schoolers. But at the same time, it’s perfect for high schoolers. High school girls anyway. I don’t; think boys should have to read it. It’s just so much a book for girls. I think basically, every high school girl that I’ve talked to like, loves it. [35:44] It’s always one of the most popular books of the year. Every boy that I’ve talked to who had to read it in high school is like, this is stupid. They hated it. It’s so good. I don’t know. I got very upset and fragile over the beginning part where she’s a child. (pause) Where she’s basically neglected and abused. I remember, I think I was like, 12 or 13 the first time I read it. And she’s ten in the book.
And it just felt like so much my experience. [36:47] Especially that it wasn’t until I read it as an adult that I feel I sort of got it. You know, the character is kind of a bad ass. She’s this very impressive person. (pause) [37:39] It’s just this very strong sense of injustice in it. She’s this child and she just knows that the way that she’s treated is not right and she knows that they’re not being fair to her. And she knows that she’s not being treated well. And she’s really angry about it and there’s nothing she can do. [38:57] But that’s not related to me. (pause) [39:45]
THERAPIST: I think it’s interesting the way that it comes up along with you are thinking about strong feelings about me. I guess I’m thinking something along the lines of, those are both sort of strong positions that I think you have often distanced yourself from. [40:57] And maybe that’s more that both put your strong feelings right in the middle of things in a way that I think is hard for you to do and at times to the extent that you don’t really want to know what they are. [41:44] I think often it’s in part because of a fear of what they’ll do to others around or with what they have done.
CLIENT: I’m worrying about I guess sort of the same thing. Both the same thing you’re talking about and the same thing as always of like, what James needs from me right now is for me not to fall apart, and I don’t know if I can do that. [42:56] (pause)
THERAPIST: We should stop for now.
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