TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: voice. (pause) I don’t know, people snoring, like do a number on me.
THERAPIST: Oh really.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I really am a (full) (ph) snorer, and like -
THERAPIST: That’s right, you -
CLIENT: I just could not sleep, like I just couldn’t do it. And when James snores, I just sort of shove him until he wakes enough to stop.
THERAPIST: Right. (pause) You know, before I (pause) I should actually set this for the right time. (laughter) Really it’s not 20 after 9. (laughter) (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah, I did wonder about like (pause) if you put the batteries back in.
THERAPIST: Yeah, you are completely right. (pause) Okay, now I’m done with that so we can start. [00:01:03]
CLIENT: I feel like now I can hear it ticking. (laughter) It’s not going to bother me. (pause) Yeah. So my dad’s coming in this weekend. (sigh) (pause) It’s sort of a cluster-fuck. He’s (sigh) he like – he seems sort of talking about it since I guess like last week. And like, “Yes, come visit that week, right?” I’m dog sitting; it’s just the only sort of commitment that I didn’t feel like I could get out of.
THERAPIST: Right. (pause)
CLIENT: But, (sigh) first he was going to fly, then Joanne was going to come; they were both going to fly, and then it was just going to be him, and he found these two tickets, but it was going to only be like 24 hours, and then the tickets got really expensive, so he was going to drive. Then like Jason and he were going to drive. [00:02:08]
And I was like, “Well I’m dog sitting.” He was like, “Well I could just like stay in that house.” I was like, “I sort of feel like I should check with my friend to see if it was okay.” But then like I have to do that. Then it was like he was going to get in super late, and he was like, “Well just leave key under the mat or something.” I’m like, “She lives in (Charlotte) (ph), I’m not doing that.” (chuckle) Like, even if she lives in Andover, like we live in a city. (laughter) It’s not burgle anymore. (pause)
“Somewhere in there is like, you know, I really want to you, but this is stressing me out. Like this becoming very anxiety piercing.” He’s like, “Okay, well don’t worry about it, I’ll settle everything; I’ll make a plan; it’ll be fine; don’t worry about it.” And he always does this, because he says, “Don’t worry about it; I’ll take care of it.”
THERAPIST: Are there any [boundaries while they were there] (ph)? [00:03:09]
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: Who’s coming? When they’re coming? How many people are coming? Where are they staying? How are they going to get in there? None of that.
CLIENT: Yeah. No. (laughter) Pretty much.
THERAPIST: A little (hyperbole) (ph), that’s right.
CLIENT: So the thing with this – so I was talking with Candace about this, and she was like, “Yep, that’s your dad.” She was like, “Remember what he did at our graduation party?” Which was – so she and I were living together, and we (inaudible at 00:03:32) and we’re trying to throw this big party. We made it; we sort of sent out e-mails to like all of our family, being like nobody is going to be staying with us. (laughter) I think that wasn’t like -
THERAPIST: So what you’re saying is –
CLIENT: (laughter) I think that was at Candace’s request, because she was like, “I just can’t handle it.” And was like, “Well, if you can’t handle it, that’s a really good excuse for me to not have to handle it.” But so we’re like, nobody’s going to be staying with us; we’re having this party; we’re not invested in anybody actually coming to this graduation, because graduations suck. [00:04:09]
But like, if you want to come, we’re going to have a party, and it’ll be fun, but you all have to find hotel rooms. Papa shows up, and he doesn’t have a place to stay. And I was like, “Well you can’t stay with us.” And he’s like, “That’s okay, I’m going to just sleep in the car in your driveway.” (pause) (chuckle) And I was like, I really lost it actually.
I was like, “The whole point – it’s not about space to sleep, it’s about bathrooms. Like we had one bathroom, and we’re two girls, and we’re graduating. We’re going to be using it. You can’t do that.” Eventually he ended up just like he just slept in driveway; that was what he did.
But (pause) (sigh) it was just this same thing of like (pause) (sigh) he’s coming to visit me, because I’ve been in the hospital for depression, and there’s just no way that I can make him understand that the way that he makes plans in itself, it doesn’t help; it’s counterproductive for me. [00:05:22]
I feel like I say that sort of over, and over and over. And it just doesn’t come – like it doesn’t make across to him. He doesn’t – there’s no way that he can come to the city that I live in, that he doesn’t know at all, and not have it involve lots of logistical planning on my part. It’s just like, that just can’t happen.
The only way he could do that would be if he was like, “Hey James, can you take over some of this stuff?” But that itself would stress me out, because James is trying to do his job. (chuckle) Also like James and my dad are – often have cross purposes. They get along very well; they like each other a lot, but they work very differently, and I have to mediate that.
THERAPIST: I can see that.
CLIENT: (laughter) Yeah. (pause) (sigh) Then he was like, “Well we’re probably going leave in the early afternoon on Friday to get there Friday night.” And it’s like, “Have you checked this on Google Maps? It’s a 12-hour drive.” So they’re going to get here like two or three in the morning, and then have to find parking. And I can’t do any of that; I can’t – it’s pretty much permit parking only down where that is; (pause) I can’t fix that. [00:06:52] (pause)
So last night I (pause) started sort of crying and hyperventilating when I was considering this, and instead of sort of like going down, it was holding steady or going up over time. And after about an – maybe less than an hour, but after awhile of that, I’m like, okay, this isn’t actually going to get – like I can’t fix it. So I just sort of made turn it off in my mind, and watched some TV then went to bed.
Today I just haven’t been thinking about it. (pause) (sigh) [00:08:00] I’m fucked, because I do want to see him, and I want to talk to him, but I can’t do any of that without having to deal with the like anxiety and bullshit of trying to like keep him from (sigh) you know, I feel like I’m sort of like chasing a toddler around sometimes. It’s like, “No, you can’t – (chuckle) you can’t mess with the knobs on the gas stove Sharon, you just can’t do that.” (laughter)
THERAPIST: And you would know -
CLIENT: (laughter)
THERAPIST: about chasing a toddler.
CLIENT: (laughter) Yes. (pause) Except I don’t – you know, it’s much easier with a toddler, because like that’s my job, and I feel pretty comfortable.
THERAPIST: And you’re so much bigger than them.
CLIENT: Yeah. (laughter) That’s true. Sharon’s in like full-on temper-tantrum stage now. (chuckle) She sounds like – (pause) in some ways, they wear on me emotionally; it was sort of a rough week actually. But it’s sort of hilarious also, like the stuff that she gets upset about; I just don’t know what to do except laugh. [00:09:15]
So she decided that – she was like wearing a onesie and pants on top of it. Then she wanted the onesie like not buckled together; it was uncomfortable, so I fixed that. Then she decided that I wasn’t allowed to help her put her pants back on; she wanted to put them back on. But she’s just at 18 months, so she (chuckle) really can’t do it, (laughter) and this was like a 20-minute thing of like she was really upset because she couldn’t do it, but would get even more upset when I tried to help her.
And – (pause) but finally I was just like, “No.” I’m putting her pants on. “You have to wear pants; everybody has to wear pants.” Then she just lost it, and took them off again. (laughter) So that was sort of unique.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Which is much easier than dealing with my dad. [00:10:14] (chuckle)
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: Eventually I managed to help her enough that she didn’t notice that I was helping her until she could do it. (chuckle) Which I feel like I should’ve just sort of continued the analogy pretty well. (pause) (sigh) [00:11:11]
You know, the alternative is just to say, “Just don’t come this week. Like it’s clearly not a good week for you or for me.” But there’s not – (sigh) there’s not a way that I can say that without like having this huge load of guilt that I just don’t want to deal with.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Like there’s not a way that I can see that – say that, and not (pause) feel like that’s me closing myself off from people. Or (pause) (background noise) [00:12:00] (pause)
Sometimes it’s like adorable things that the kids did this week. Jackson is really into telling jokes and riddles right now. So I told him the joke that I like which is, “What do you call a deer with no eyes? No idear.” And like he really didn’t get it. (laughter) I explained it to him twice, and he was like, “Okay, okay.” I said, “Well what do you call a deer with no eyes and no legs? Still no idear.” (chuckle) And he’s like, “That’s the same joke.” (laughter) So maybe in another year or two. (laughter) [00:13:00] (pause)
THERAPIST: [One word] (ph) too, is that I (pause) I think maybe you want my help with your dad. (pause) In other words like, (pause) [clues that sort of he feels is untenable] (ph), (pause) and overwhelming and (pause) potentially dangerous for you. And (pause) I guess maybe in a way, (pause) (background noise) I don’t know what I get is, or that say like, it would be really nice if anybody, but (inaudible at 00:14:47) at me, or I like do something to just (pause) help manage him, or like keep him at a distance.
And I think with Candace, like with her e-mail to everybody, “Nobody (laughter) will even stay in our house.”
CLIENT: Yeah. (laughter)
THERAPIST: A little sarcastic.
CLIENT: (laughter) Yeah, although I mean, that show you how far that got. So – (laughter)
THERAPIST: Right. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah, I feel like (pause) you know, so there’s like a sort of passive/aggressive way that I can handle it, that’s just what I do all too often. [00:15:52] Of just like going along with it, and going along with it, and going along with it, and then either like snapping or just sort of continuing to absorb it, and then bitch about it to other people. That’s usually what I do. And that sucks.
Then there’s like the mature way to handle it, which is, you know, set loving boundaries and sort of say clearly what I need, and (pause) and that’s just exhausting. (chuckle) Like I know how to do that, I just don’t have it in me to do it right now. (pause)
THERAPIST: And, it doesn’t work.
CLIENT: (laughter)
THERAPIST: Like I mean -
CLIENT: (laughter) It works better but still not very well.
THERAPIST: The illustration may just be untenable. In other words, like (pause) it seems to me you feel like (pause) you must have some failing if this isn’t working. [00:17:05] (pause) And if (pause) no one can step in and help, must mean you have some failing.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) (sigh) Yeah. (pause) [00:18:00] (pause) And I definitely imagine that there’s a right course to take somewhere if I could only discern it, that would – (pause) or make it be – or make it work in some way. (pause) Or you know, at least make me not feel so horrible about not working.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) And you are giving some of that over to me, which I know is not easy to do. Like, “I’m out of ideas Chad.”
CLIENT: (laughter)
THERAPIST: “Got anything?”
CLIENT: Yeah. (laughter)
THERAPIST: It’s not easy for you to do.
CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle) (pause) It feels – part of it is just I feel so unreasonable about it. [00:19:24] Like, (pause) (sigh) sort of like panicked, and frustration, and (pause) it feels like (pause) it sort of feels like I’m catastrophizing behaviors that’s not actually that bad.
And so I can’t tell, and also because like sometimes the way that he acts really is that bad. Sometimes it’s just that it reminded of times when it really was that bad, so he might be, you know, not really out of line, and I’m might just feel like he’s out of line.
I guess I feel sort of disordered, and reasonable when I deal with him, and I can’t tell. I feel like my sort of normal mooring and wearing, but like my normal mooring is all gone. I don’t know (pause) (sigh) I don’t know if like (pause) he’s really a difficult houseguest or if I just sort of think he is. [00:20:45]
THERAPIST: I follow.
CLIENT: I (pause) you know in talking to James, I sort of look for that mooring, but James sort of I think – I mean I sort of think James has unreasonable high standards for plans. (laughter)
THERAPIST: Like that you can’t really trust.
CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Although I don’t really even know, like (pause) in some ways, I think I just might need to embrace the fact that I’m not actually that flexible of a person, and just own it. (chuckle) But, (pause) you know there are things that -
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:21:57) and incredibly (pause) anxious (pause) to not be able to like have or establish a point of view (pause) that feels right, I think about him. (pause) And to be (pause) having to deal with pretty conflicting impressions, I mean in your own mind.
CLIENT: Yeah. (laughter) (pause) [00:23:00] (pause) I guess I feel like every time – every time that I try to set boundaries around him, I end up feeling like I am (sigh) this very sort of stuffy fragile person. Like, “Oh, you know, Tanya can’t deal with having the plans changed at the last minute, so we’ll do something that makes her feel better, because that’s what she needs.” (laughter)
It’s like, “Well that is what I need.” (chuckle) But I – (pause) I just like the killjoy of the family. (chuckle) (pause) [00:24:00] (pause)
THERAPIST: How does that work? Like -
CLIENT: (laughter)
THERAPIST: How does wanting things planned in advance make you a killjoy?
CLIENT: That’s a really good question. They sort of feel like at the assumption that spontaneity equals more fun. Which I always feel like spontaneity often just equals like waiting in lines that you weren’t planning on waiting in, and being hungry, and like not – and getting cranky, because you can’t find a place to spend the night.
But there’s the assumption that like spontaneity is like this inherently better thing. [00:25:00] And (pause) (sigh) you know, so Joanne decided not to come with Papa, (pause) and in telling me about this, he was like as I’m thinking about it, I’m like “Oh yeah.” He sort of was like bragging on her for it. Like he was saying, “Oh well Joanne likes to plan things in advance, and so she doesn’t like to make changes once she’s made plans.” You know, and said like – (sigh)
THERAPIST: Stuffy and uptight?
CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle) (pause) But like I -
THERAPIST: That’s partly you know a warning or a condemnation?
CLIENT: Yes. (pause) And I really believe that about myself that like (pause) spontaneity and flexibility is a good thing. [00:26:06] (pause) (sigh) And so that’s like, but then the corollary is that like needing security is like this great flaw, or this great weakness. (pause) (sigh) [00:27:00]
I was going to say that it – and then there’s this – it’s like he’s making this Herculean effort to come see me, so I need to be grateful for that. Is like force teaming like, except I was thinking, “Did you see an effort?” (laughter) Which is totally not a (inaudible at 00:27:18). (laughter)
THERAPIST: Be grateful.
CLIENT: Yep. (laughter) (pause) I don’t know where that came from. (chuckle) (pause)
THERAPIST: I think there’s some there. I don’t know what they did. (laughter) (pause)
CLIENT: But it is like a Sisyphean effort; there’s no need for him to drive 20 hours to see me for 24. Like I didn’t ask him to. I don’t – (sigh) (pause) yeah, I don’t (pause) feel particularly grateful for it. Like I don’t – it’s not going to gain anybody anything. [00:28:16] (pause)
You know, I’m glad he wants to see me, and I want to see him too, and I miss him, but like I don’t – I don’t think that this sort of like frustration and agonizing is actually healthy. (sigh)
THERAPIST: Well I guess what I think is poignant about this slip is; it seems to me pretty significant to have the conscious idea of your father as Herculean. But apparently some other idea (laughter) of him of (being) (ph) (pause)
CLIENT: That’s about right. (laughter) [00:29:00] (pause)
THERAPIST: The other idea that brings to mind is like (pause) I don’t know; I thought is a way like (pause) a lot with Hercules, because I can carry you wherever and however you need it. And a father with a Sisyphus couldn’t. And I’m not saying that applies everywhere and to everything. [00:30:29] (pause)
But I think it’s also – you probably worked pretty hard to maintain that it was like the first one. Do you know what I mean? (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It seems like there’s this (pause) this value placed on like flexibility, and adaptability and ability. I feel like I’m always the one who needs to adapt. [00:31:23]It’s like I’m dog sitting, so I like have to take care of this dog. And he’s like, “Well I know, I’ll just stay, and we’ll walk the dog, and we’ll sort of work around what you need to do.” Like that’s not actually what’s happening. Like – (pause)
THERAPIST: Right. In a sense that like he’s asking you to ask your friend whether he can stay there, and then leave the key at her place, then do whatever other arranging needs to happen.
CLIENT: Yeah, and I’m not sure he even realizes that that’s what he’s asking, but he doesn’t have to realize that – it’s like he doesn’t have to think about what’s going to go into for me. [00:32:05] (pause) Yeah. (pause)
Yeah, and (inaudible at 00:32:30) (ph) is like I’m going to stay over there tonight, because I’m not leaving the key out, and so I would stayed over there if they weren’t coming up anyway.
THERAPIST: Oh okay.
CLIENT: Yeah. (overlapping voices)
THERAPIST: So the dog’s really supposed to be out there, right?
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (pause) [00:33:30] Sorry, I’m off the thread. (pause) (sigh) [00:34:30] (pause) I don’t know.
THERAPIST: Well what else comes to mind? (pause)
CLIENT: It’s been awhile since I have had to work this hard to (inaudible at 00:35:13) anxiety. (pause) I think it’s funny you should mention (inaudible at 00:35:25).
THERAPIST: Ah-huh. (pause)
CLIENT: Economy’s in the stage where she like -
THERAPIST: Which is harder to you putting you in a relationship with your dad, or to the other things that have happened recently?
CLIENT: Just it all.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Sorry, Economy’s in a stage -
CLIENT: Oh, she’s in a stage where she just really idolizes her dad. But she’s not – she’s not old enough to like get like tact, or the like maybe there are times when you don’t have to say everything that you think.
THERAPIST: (laughter)
CLIENT: (laughter) I don’t know how old you have to be for that, because Jackson’s not there either. But I think he’s sort of almost there, but not quite. So he now showed like -
THERAPIST: I remember hearing (inaudible at 00:36:38) make a joke about that, about his grandson, where like, you know, since everything comes to mind, he’s saying yeah every 3:30 he comes to mouth.
CLIENT: (laughter) Yeah. (laughter) But she’ll say like, she’ll be like, “I like Daddy better.” Or like, “I hug Daddy better.” Like to her mom. And Kim is like, she’s just really pissed off. I think also like it just really hurts. You know, I think she knows that it’s normal, and like she knows that it’s a phase and all of that. But it just likes really hurts. I don’t know really what to do about it. (pause)
(chuckle) And when Sharon throws tantrums, she’ll say like “Daddy” and like “Mommy.” She’ll say like both Mommy and Daddy with me, but apparently with Kim it’s just Daddy. (laughter) I don’t know what she does when she’s doing it with Taylor. But, I don’t know. [00:37:55] (pause)
So now I’m thinking about (inaudible at 00:38:06). So one of the major projects of like religious people from those theologians in the last 30 years has been to say, “Hey, when we talk about God as a Father, like that’s not – (chuckle) that’s a little bit loaded. Maybe we should reconsider how that works for people who don’t good experiences with fathers, and like “
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And they’re like (pause) talking about the sort of human analogies of for talking about God, and those mean things that we don’t intend them to mean sometimes. (pause) I don’t know where we best – I mean I don’t – I’m not really thinking anything in particular about that.
THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s okay.
CLIENT: Yeah. I was reading an article about (inaudible at 00:38:58), a very famous theologian who works on this stuff today. (pause)
THERAPIST: Well the point is not just that it gender rates God, but also that it (pause) has implications for how people who have had maybe sort of had religion, but their fathers like have [or relayed] (ph) to God to kind of sort of describe -
CLIENT: Yeah. But to like just talk about God as a parent, I mean it’s something that like I’ve had to sort of (pause) like deal with, and talking about God as a parent doesn’t really do much for me, (church) perhaps unsurprisingly. (chuckle) It’s really complicated and hard.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:40:09] (pause)
CLIENT: (sigh) (pause) I feel like it’s (pause) I feel like in some ways saying that like talking about (pause) (sigh) saying that talking about God in patriarchal terms is problematic sort of misses the point in some major ways. Like the patriarchy doesn’t bother me as much as like God as parent.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:41:20)
CLIENT: Yeah, at all. Like that – actually that sort of (lying) (ph) still really bothers me. But (chuckle) it’s different.
THERAPIST: It’s totally different, yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It’s sort of much easier to get past, the patriarchy in some ways. (pause) Yeah. Kim’s mom – like Kim talks with her mom on the phone at least once a day.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Like twice a day with me. And when her mom was visiting, she was talking with me about my mom, and it was like – and I was like, “I’m not really that close with her.” And she was just like, “Oh, well that’ll change once you’ve had kids.” It was very sweet that she just like couldn’t understand how that could not change. But still, it just hurts.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:42:19] (pause) I was thinking about in two ways; like one in which like you were saying, in a way popularly, there’s no room for real bad parenting. (pause) Like with Kim, or with the sort of (pause) way that theologians try to find God or something like that. [00:43:26]
But I think also in your house. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah, it feels sort of horrifying for me to even think that like my dad was a bad parent. Like (chuckle) it doesn’t feel horrifying for me to think that like he was an abusive parent, but to think like he was a bad parent, like that I can’t handle. (chuckle) (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah, I think relatedly, (pause) that theme’s something to do with how it’s hard to like (pause) the tension you feel around deciding whose fault it is if you’re having trouble accommodating how he’s seen about the visit let’s say. [00:44:29]
You know, like he certainly doesn’t acknowledge it anyway (pause) ever, as far as I’ve heard, that it’s a problem that he’s like this. Or maybe he does and he hasn’t talked about it. But, actually what you’re telling me is that he blames it on those folks around; there’s you, or sorry if I mention someone else.
CLIENT: Joanne.
THERAPIST: Joanne, yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah, no, I mean he definitely is like, “Well I can change, or I can do things differently.” But it’s very much like as a favor to you.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Not because that would be the reasonable and right thing to do. And he doesn’t actually change.
THERAPIST: Right. (pause) We should stop.
CLIENT: Yeah.
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