TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Mmm?
CLIENT: Yeah, I’m really tired.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: So Candace is here.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Candace is the best.
THERAPIST: That’s great.
CLIENT: She’s just the best. (pause) So I’m sort of like dramatically up and down. I’m just like so happy that Candace is here.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And at the same time, it’s just been an awful week. (chuckles) So it’s like just like exhausting. I worked on Monday afternoon.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And both on Wednesday and Thursday. Like Kim [ph] and Frank are both really, really overworked so they were both at least an hour late coming back, coming home, for Wednesday and Thursday.
[00:01:04]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: So I’m just dead tired and, you know, sad and all of that. Like Candace is here. That’s really wonderful.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like Candace is having a tough time. (pause) She’s not really sure where her life is and where her life is going, and she has been really sad. So we’ve been talking about that some. It’s just good to see her.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: We just met Noel Sanders [ph] who is a friend who went to William & Mary with us, who has been living in Denver for the last two years, but I haven’t seen him.
[00:02:01]
I don’t remember the last time I saw him. I think I saw him like I think I saw him the last time Candace visited Denver, like almost a year ago.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And I might have seen him once since then, but like that is one of the things that got erased, like gone.
THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.
CLIENT: I don’t know. But he is just delightful.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: I sort of my emotions about him sort of swing violently back and forth. Like we have a catchphrase for him which is “Noel Sanders [ph] ruins everything.” (laughter)
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:02:39)
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I don’t remember much about him, but I vaguely remember that.
CLIENT: I guess that’s probably the problem with catchphrases. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: So like we came up with that because first, like Candace was completely in love with him for her first year at William & Mary, and he didn’t like handle it very well or like he didn’t reciprocate her affections but wasn’t very clear about that.
[00:03:09]
So it was there was sort of awkwardness there. And then he broke her foot playing basketball, and I think there were other things too.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. Seeing him again after not seeing him for a long time was like “Wow, you’re a really smart and passionate and compassionate person. Like it’s really nice to talk to you.”
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I’m going to try to be in touch with him more. (pause) Candace came to my Greek class today.
[00:04:12]
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: It was a good one. We finally talked about verbs.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: I’m not sure that that is going to last beyond the next couple of weeks. I think we might do I think it might be time to sort of wrap it up until the fall. Partly because I would need to like finding a time that we can all meet has become after the next couple of weeks is going to be difficult.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And partly I think I think they sort of like the idea of breaking for the summer, at least I think so. We might give it a rest and see if we want to come back to it or not. (long pause)
[00:05:38]
I don’t know. I guess hanging out with Candace makes me sort of step back and say oh, there are other ways that I can be. There are other things that I’m good at and other things I can do that aren’t part of my life right now, and I would really like them to be. (pause) James, I think, was also really glad to see her. You know, he was sort of like “Well, yeah, I’m happy to have Candace come” blah blah blah.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And then apparently he and Candace just talked all day on Wednesday.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Yeah, that was really nice to hear.
THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s great. (long pause)
[00:06:40]
CLIENT: I really want to I feel like it’s so clear to me that James needs people to talk to and needs a community.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And like really wants some sort of spiritual community but also really wants some sort of work and academic work community.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: And that he needs to find these things, and I want to like find them for him and help him find them and tell him that he needs these things. But I’m like nope, nope, shut down. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: Not my job. (chuckles) (long pause)
[00:07:44]
I feel like I’m just tired all of the time. (long pause) Yesterday they were out of milk, so I couldn’t make tea while I was at work yesterday. I had planned to go to the grocery store, partly because it’s not my job to get groceries for them. Like it’s not -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like I really resist having that be my job.
THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.
CLIENT: But both Kim [ph] and Frank are run just like ragged this week. They are so tired.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And I’m “Just let me go to Trader Joe’s and get you something.”
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: “Let me just do this.”
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But then Jackson [ph] came home sick from school.
[00:08:38]
THERAPIST: Oh no.
CLIENT: Yeah. So we watched TV on the couch for most of the day. It was really good for me also. (chuckles) That was about all I was up to.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (long pause)
[00:09:36]
CLIENT: (sighing) There’s a housewarming party for a friend of mine from church that is tomorrow night. I’m sort of like well, yeah, I guess I should go to this. I do actually like this person.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: I just don’t like parties. Well, I like parties, but I just didn’t want to go to the party. (chuckles) It’s in Denver, and it looks like our car is not going to be drivable still.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: So that feels like a good excuse.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: I haven’t looked up whether public transportation is an option.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: I’m sort of hoping it won’t be.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Luke is like “Well, maybe somebody will offer to give you a ride.” That would be the worst option.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Because I couldn’t leave until they were ready.
THERAPIST: Right.
[00:10:36]
CLIENT: I tend to not want to go to parties. I sort of drag my feet and then once I get there, I sort of want to close out the room. [I just stay] forever.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm. (long pause)
[00:11:42]
CLIENT: Candace is really talking about marrying this guy.
THERAPIST: Oh wow.
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess that shouldn’t be it shouldn’t be surprising to me that she like it’s not surprising to me that that’s where that relationship is going. I sort of heard her talk about Isaac in the first month or two that they were dating and then met him and it’s like yeah, that’s the guy she’s going to marry.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like that’s going to happen.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But I guess it is surprising to me that she’s sort of (pause) She’s pretty open with me at least about like actively making plans and thinking like “Well, we want to get married and have kids.” And so for her, the big thing is like what’s their religious upbringing going to be like? What’s that going to look like? And so I sort of -
[00:12:45]
THERAPIST: She’s Catholic?
CLIENT: She’s Catholic, he’s Jewish.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And so they have decided like they’ll raise their kids like Catholic and Jewish.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: Like that’s what they’re going to do. But, you know, Candace is somebody who like if she’s going to do something, she’s going to do it right. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: (pause) So I’m trying to get her to learn Greek.
THERAPIST: (chuckles)
CLIENT: I think she like learned the alphabet. There’s like a class, but it’s apparently taught by like very pleasant and well-meaning kids who had no idea how to teach a language.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So like, yeah. (pause) And I was sort of like “We’ll just get a textbook, and we’ll Skype once a week. That will be fun.”
[00:13:44]
I think that sort of I think she lacks self-confidence in her language-learning ability, and so she’s like “I’m worried I’ll disappoint you and that will be awkward and bad.” I said “I see what you’re thinking, and I’m not worried about that.”
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: I don’t know. (long pause)
THERAPIST: It sort of sounds like it would be fun for you.
CLIENT: It would be fun for me, yeah. You know, we’ve talked about ways to sort of stay in closer touch. You know, we have this blog together that we update very infrequently. I’m like “We should just actually do this.”
[00:14:46]
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: And partly because like I want to write more and she both wants to write more and wants to it would basically be good for her career potentially -
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: to be like a public voice. So I’m like “Maybe we should make this into something that is more explicitly designed for an audience.”
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: So we’re talking about that and (inaudible at 00:15:14).
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: (pause) I find it hard to talk about like plans and hopes with you, particularly in terms of writing because I feel like well, that’s just not actually going to happen, and I don’t want to bring it up if it’s not going to happen. (pause)
[00:15:52]
Yeah. So I sort of notice that I don’t really want to tell you that we’re talking about like writing as a serious venture.
THERAPIST: Right. (inaudible at 00:16:00).
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)
THERAPIST: You’re afraid of it not going anywhere and then feeling ashamed because you told me you wanted to do it?
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.
THERAPIST: (pause) It’s like I wouldn’t be proud of you? (pause)
[00:16:54]
CLIENT: Maybe. Like you would increasingly expect me to fail.
THERAPIST: Hmm. (long pause) I wouldn’t have confidence in you?
CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause)
[00:18:36]
THERAPIST: I imagine putting it that way makes it seem even more uncomfortable. I mean, inasmuch as like [what I suppose it says] about me, wanting me to think that way of you.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t (long pause) Yeah. And I’m not (pause) Sorry, I’m having trouble -
THERAPIST: That’s alright.
CLIENT: organizing my thoughts. (pause)
[00:19:38]
It’s like you’re neither somebody who I don’t particularly care what they think about me, nor like in the position of, I think, like James or Amanda who are like I sort of where it doesn’t bother me to or I don’t worry so much about them -
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: sort of seeing me fail repeatedly.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Or seeing me not live up to what my hopes are repeatedly.
THERAPIST: Right. I guess I imagine you have a sort of confidence in their view of you already.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (pause) Yeah. It feels like the way that I imagine you view me feels fragile.
[00:20:43]
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: [But I know that it’s not]. It’s interesting, you know, Candace coming to this Greek class. She was like very, very complimentary of me and of like my teaching and the relationship that I have there. I don’t really know what to make of that. Like it felt really good. I sort of want to like disavow it because it felt really good. But I also know that she’s sincere and I trust her judgment, so I don’t quite know what to think of that. But she’s like she’s also somebody who is like always the biggest cheerleader of me that I have ever one of the biggest cheerleaders for me that I’ve met.
[00:21:42]
And [she’s there for me]. I forget why I said that. Whatever. (pause) Yeah, it was a good class, but it wasn’t the best class or the worst class. That’s just how it goes.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (long pause)
[00:22:52]
I imagine you might worry that if that matters a lot to you, her being very complimentary or if you come to rely on it, it jeopardizes it.
CLIENT: Hmm. (pause) Yes. (chuckles) Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Because that seems like that’s what has come up a lot here.
CLIENT: Hmm. (pause)
[00:23:47]
Yeah, it’s this sort of strange thing of like it feels so good for her to say like “Yes, you are good at this thing” that I feel like I have to distance myself from it as much as possible, and it’s not totally clear to me why that is.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: But the feeling is very clear.
CLIENT: Yeah. Both that like it feels so good and -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: that’s really scary.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And I sort of just want to shut it down.
THERAPIST: Hmm. (long pause)
[00:24:50]
CLIENT: I feel like I finally figured out how to explain Greek verbs.
THERAPIST: That’s cool.
CLIENT: Yeah. It’s one of the things that like gets harder the more you know about Greek rather than easier.
THERAPIST: Hmm.
CLIENT: So that’s fine. But I also get really excited about it.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm. (long pause)
[00:26:34]
CLIENT: I sort of didn’t want to see John when Candace was making plans (inaudible at 00:26:40).
THERAPIST: Yeah. (long pause)
[00:27:53]
Yeah, I wonder if (pause) because of working on the ways (pause) We were just talking about, you know, if somebody is complimentary or supportive, it’s scary. I mean, I think that’s something that you worked on here. I wonder if that makes it easier to enjoy people or like, I don’t know, easier [to be] nice and enjoy hanging out with them, like if it’s less fraught.
CLIENT: Hmm.
[00:28:58]
THERAPIST: I think about John. I don’t know.
CLIENT: Yeah. Hmm. (long pause) Yeah, I do feel like I do have the sense that it’s gotten easier for me -
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: just to appreciate being with people without (pause) worrying too much about what’s going to happen.
[00:30:03]
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) You know, part of the thing like it’s pretty clear to me that this Greek class, like I’m getting more out of it than the students are. Like it’s more important to me than it is to them. I’m sort of okay with that.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: That’s fine.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
[00:30:57]
CLIENT: I just really enjoy them. I really enjoy it. Except for like the I fret about it every morning before I go, but then it’s always good. (chuckles) (pause) So here’s a question that you’re definitely not going to answer.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: Which is, do you find your job continuously challenging? One of the things, talking with Candace, is that like one of the things that she’s struggling with is she’s at a place where she no longer has to be working like 12 hours a day at her job.
THERAPIST: What does she do?
CLIENT: She’s like a in like the religious studies department at a Catholic school. I think she likes organizes and leads retreats. Basically like she’s the director of spiritual formation at the school.
[00:32:00]
THERAPIST: At a high school?
CLIENT: At a high school, yeah.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: So, yeah, a lot of like spiritual formation, retreats, and talking with (inaudible at 00:32:07) and one-on-one stuff. And like she’s good at it, and she likes it, and she’s a little bored.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: And sort of starting to hit the point where she doesn’t have to figure it out, so she’s like, well so she’s just bored and needs something else in her life or needs to move in a different direction. And I feel like I always do that.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Always have that. So I was wondering so for me, like being in therapy, it’s definitely like I keep being pushed. (pause) I don’t know. I was just wondering what it’s like on the other side.
[00:33:03]
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm. (long pause)
[00:33:59]
CLIENT: I feel like it’s also getting easier for me to sort of say like yeah, I’m really sad a lot of the time, but like that doesn’t I don’t want to be talking about that all of the time. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: That’s good -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I think. (long pause)
[00:34:51]
THERAPIST: Yeah, I have I guess two thoughts about (long pause) Yeah, I’m not sure what to say about that question. (long pause)
CLIENT: (chuckles) I was thinking well, I’ll take that as a victory. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: (chuckles)
CLIENT: But I don’t think that’s actually true.
THERAPIST: (chuckles) I guess that means something must be challenging about my job. (chuckles)
[00:36:02]
CLIENT: (chuckles) You’re welcome.
THERAPIST: (chuckles) (long pause)
[00:36:52]
CLIENT: I asked John to explain the difference between Unitarians and UCC.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: He went on like the most he talked for about five minutes, and he like just laid out every single mainline Protestant denomination in America, just like incredibly lucidly.
THERAPIST: Wow.
CLIENT: And just like, this is really amazing. (chuckles) It’s really complicated. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. Really, like that M.Div. is doing something for him.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: He’s learning something. He’s studying to be a Methodist pastor.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: He’s at MSU.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: He says he’s leaning more or moving more toward parish ministry, which I don’t think was true the last time I talked to him.
[00:38:02]
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: He sort of -
THERAPIST: As opposed to like -
CLIENT: Like campus ministry or -
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Yeah, working with youth.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Something. And also as opposed to academic work.
THERAPIST: Uh huh. (long pause)
[00:39:43]
It’s really buzzy in here today.
CLIENT: Yeah, what is that? Is that the lights?
THERAPIST: I don’t think so. I mean, the lights are what does that say?
CLIENT: Off.
THERAPIST: Off, yeah. But it might be the ventilation system (inaudible at 00:39:57).
CLIENT: Hmm.
THERAPIST: I don’t know. (pause) Yeah, I’m still thinking about your question, and it seems to me that maybe partly you’re asking me sort of, in a way, something that’s intimate about work, I mean, for me.
[00:40:36]
But I think also it seems like maybe you have yourself in mind too. Like I guess it made me think, when you’re asking me if it’s something I struggle with, whether [purely the way you described something we have in common], you know, if I still is there still kind of am I engaged in a way, or do I feel like I’m struggling, and it’s hard, and like I’m really putting myself in it in a way that is satisfying purely for me, but it sounds like it’s missing for her.
CLIENT: Yeah. Like there seems to be you know, I think for like most people I know, they seem to need to have some kind of, something to push against.
THERAPIST: Hmm.
[00:41:33]
CLIENT: That in order to be satisfied in work or in other ways and that like I don’t know. I guess I feel like I’m seeing this in Candace and I’ve seen this in myself. I’ve seen it in other people as well.
THERAPIST: Like somehow pushing an envelope?
CLIENT: Maybe. I don’t know. (pause) Like your mind needs to have enough to do somehow. (long pause)
[00:42:47]
So like there are these two people who are doing Greek with me. Like one of them is this 70-year-old woman and this other is this guy who works downtown. Both of them are very smart. And to me it’s sort of the most natural thing in the world that like they would want to learn Greek and like do this with their days. But, you know, it’s a big church and there are two people who are doing it. It’s hard to do. I don’t know. I don’t know where I’m going with it.
THERAPIST: (pause) Like that’s part of what seems to matter about it for them is that it’s new, it’s the challenge for them? (pause) And that’s part of why it’s fulfilling?
[00:43:59]
CLIENT: Maybe. I don’t know. The problem with language learning is that it takes a while to get to the point where it’s fulfilling.
THERAPIST: Hmm.
CLIENT: Or where it feels like it’s fulfilling.
THERAPIST: Do you mean -
CLIENT: At least for me.
THERAPIST: being able to use the language?
CLIENT: Yeah, and I describe it as like there’s a very steep curve.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: There’s like steep areas and plateaus.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: But there’s a lot of the time it feels like you’re working really hard and you’re not really getting anything in return. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know. (pause)
THERAPIST: [It seems to me like you’re talking about a different kind of or I have my different kind of fulfillment, not necessarily to be able to speak or read Greek or understand it.]
[00:45:02]
But more like, you know, it’s something new for them to explore, to think about, kind of a new way to think. I imagine it’s not what they do most of the time, learn a new language. Something like that.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause) Yeah. (pause) I guess I was also wondering like do you get bored?
THERAPIST: Hmm. (long pause)
[00:46:16]
CLIENT: Which is a little, I guess, a little bit more fraught (chuckles) than the way I’m phrasing it.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm. Like do you bore me?
CLIENT: Yeah, I guess so. But not but it’s not you know, it’s like the way that I’m setting up the question in my mind is very sort of impersonal and then like but then I’m sort of like, who am I kidding? That’s really personal. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: (chuckles) Uh huh. Yeah. [I can imagine the other question. I was wondering if this like] in a way sort of seems like a question personal to me about, like do I find this challenging. But also, I was wondering too if it’s like similarly whether you’re asking if I find you challenging.
[00:47:18]
CLIENT: Hmm. (pause) I hadn’t thought about it that way.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: (long pause) I guess one way of putting it is like taking care of me and people like me in this way. Like is that enough to make you happy? Is that enough to take care of you?
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm. (pause)
[00:48:13]
CLIENT: [I’m sorry I didn’t ask you that.] (chuckles)
THERAPIST: (pause) Do you mean because it’s uncomfortable to express like your concern for me or like -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: that you think about how I’m doing?
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I feel like it sort of like opens up that like you know, I get very concerned for you, and I really care about you, and I really want you to be well. And that is not really something I’m comfortable dealing with. (chuckles)
[00:49:04]
THERAPIST: Uh huh. (long pause) I imagine mostly because there are feelings that you’re uncomfortable with but also a bit I could imagine you worry that’s going to feel too close to me.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And that I will want to respond in some way that pushes you back or that makes that clear.
[00:49:53]
CLIENT: Hmm. (long pause)
[00:51:51]
THERAPIST: I guess it also wasn’t I didn’t know before that you like worried about me that way.
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: I mean -
CLIENT: I always feel like it’s really obvious.
THERAPIST: Oh really?
CLIENT: But I guess not. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: (long pause) No, I mean, I think I was aware that (inaudible at 00:52:22). (pause) I don’t know. Maybe there’s just something I’m not maybe I either wasn’t clear or there’s something sort of different about that particularly.
[00:52:50]
CLIENT: I mean, I always like it’s always sort of surprising to me that I have to tell you things in order for you to know them. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: (chuckles) Sure.
CLIENT: You should work on that. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: (chuckles)
CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. (pause) I feel like I spend a lot of time trying to like hold myself back from trying to take care of people.
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm. Like James with and the social stuff?
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. You know, with like Kim [ph] and Frank. It’s like they’re having a rough week -
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: and I just really want to make it better.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And it’s not my job. (chuckles)
[00:53:53]
THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Also like with people that I don’t know very well. I don’t know. (pause)
THERAPIST: We should stop for now.
CLIENT: Okay. Thanks.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
END TRANSCRIPT
