TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Hey.

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Thanks for talking to me yesterday.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Things are not as terrible as they could be.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Yep. (pause) I think James feels better this week; we just talked yesterday more, and I think he feels more – more like I’m hearing what he’s saying. I’m not sure about me. (chuckle) (pause) [00:01:00] (pause) Yeah, I still sort of feel like I’ve (pause) put out a couple of things that were not working for me, and they’re sort of beating at me. And it sort of feels like, well I can’t do anything about it or I won’t do anything about it. (pause)

THERAPIST: That you put them out and you said that?

CLIENT: And he said that.

THERAPIST: He said that; that’s what I thought.

CLIENT: Yeah. That like (sigh)

THERAPIST: Right, that’s freaking you out about not knowing where you’re going to be.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I was like, “Do you have any sort of timeline?” He said, “No, no I really don’t.” (pause) [00:02:00] (pause) And that – yeah. I feel like the times of my life right now where I’m doing well, and can sort of be somebody that I like, are like at work, and mostly like with church stuff.

He can’t share the work stuff, and he’s just isn’t interested in sharing the church stuff. And it’s not like – it’s not the like going to church part that I like, because I had dealt with that, and that’s fine, it’s more like there’s all of the social stuff around it, and he just won’t go to any of it with me.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: It sort of sucks to have everyone know you’re married, and nobody’s ever met your husband. I’m like, you’re always going to parties alone.

THERAPIST: True.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:03:05]-[0:04:05] (pause) I think for him, the thing that sort of – I mean it hurts, but it feels like he’s working so hard, and doing so much, and he has so much stuff sort of weighing on him. And I’m saying like, “That’s not good enough.”

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Or. “You’re not doing enough.” But it’s like, “Well I don’t – I don’t – I don’t want to dismiss what you’re doing, because I see it, and I value it, and I always do, not just when you point it out. But the plan is not necessarily either of us for me to say like what you’re doing is what I need; it’s not. Like it doesn’t help for me to say that I’m being taken care of more than I need.” [00:05:05]

And he was like, “Yeah I could.” (chuckle)

THERAPIST: He’s talking like if he’s thinking of for example, some of what he’s working so hard at is like [kid work] (ph) stuff.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Because that – that is absolutely hard word, and can be stressful and everything else. But it’s not (inaudible at 00:05:29); is that a certain thing you had in mind?

CLIENT: It’s not like – (sigh) taken care is maybe the wrong word. I guess I think like – (sigh) I think I said something like, “It doesn’t serve us for me that this situation’s working for me.” I actually felt like I get that he is – so he’s like, he’s finishing his thesis, and stuff, and he’s working on finishing a paper, and finishing writing his thesis, finishing up his other paper and applying for jobs.

And like that’s hard, and I know that that is what stands in the way of him applying for jobs, and I know that he is working on it. But it doesn’t – it doesn’t help that I don’t – like I have to say I don’t know when this is going to happen and it’s really hard for me.

I am not saying this well. [00:06:27]

THERAPIST: No, no, I’m not furrowing my brow because of that. I mean maybe the thing I don’t – there’s a few things I don’t understand. (chuckle) One of them is, so if his plan continues to be to revise his thesis, get this paper out, and then apply for jobs, I guess I don’t understand why he can’t give you a rough idea of when he’ll be applying for jobs. Because assuming he expects to graduate this spring, there must be something in line.

CLIENT: Yeah. (overlapping voices) Well he’s already turned – he did turn in his thesis.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But yeah; no.

THERAPIST: I mean even if he says like within the next three or four months, the paper will – I mean -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So maybe there must be something I don’t get. (sigh)

CLIENT: I don’t think I could either.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t (pause) (overlapping voices) I feel like I’m trying to narrow him down from a timeline of like a year or two; within that three-month range. And he was just like, “I’m not doing that.” He didn’t tell want to tell me, or he couldn’t tell me. I don’t know why. [00:07:43]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (chuckle)

THERAPIST: So you either. Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. What was the other thing you don’t understand? (pause)

THERAPIST: There was one, I think it was sort of in the details of like (pause) I know what you mean, but why go to the church stuff, or like from you I get the feel that it means to you he’s seems sort of closed off to it. Or (pause) what he’s feeling so burdened by, that at the same doesn’t feel to you like it (pause) I don’t know you said, like it helps know the situation works better for you. [00:08:49]

I mean like there’s the work stuff that I kind of see, but you know, sometimes he doesn’t really do both stuff around the house. But I guess I would imagine that would feel like it’d make things work better for you, if that’s the kind of stuff you need to do, maybe it doesn’t. And maybe that’s not what he’s referring to.

So like then again, maybe it’s not important for me to know, I’m not sure.

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Or maybe it’s uncomfortable to talk about. I don’t know that either.

CLIENT: I – I don’t that I have much of a better handle on it. Like I don’t feel like it’s that clear to me. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Go ahead.

CLIENT: So like in doing the – in the fact that he does most of the work that sort of keeps us running, in some ways that takes a big huge burden off me, but like in other ways, it really – it makes – like I just feel constantly guilty, and I constantly feel like I’m failing in these ways. [00:10:09]

THERAPIST: Right. I know you mentioned yesterday -

CLIENT: Feeling like he’s grudging it, or he doesn’t want to be doing that. And he doesn’t, but he’s never going to tell me that he doesn’t – that like in any specific instance, “Hey, can you do this?” And I have a really hard time like if let to my own devices, I’m still sort of only marginally functional.

So like I need someone like pushing me in some ways. But I guess he’s not going to do that. And it’s not really reasonable to ask him to. So I have to sort of (pause) figure out another way of doing it.

THERAPIST: You know, that I get. I mean the two (hems) (ph) that come to my mind are work, where there’re certain times you’ve got to be there, and maybe you do, and that’s sort of part of their main expectations. Like you can kind of get organized around that. [00:11:09]

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s like their expectations, but their clear expectations. And I feel like with James, he had expectations, but he feels like he can’t tell me what they are.

THERAPIST: Right. So then you say like a job chart would help.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which I imagine it would be kind of in a similar way, which would seem very clear in structure and stuff.

CLIENT: Ah-huh.

THERAPIST: But he doesn’t want to do that.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I’m just going to deal with that like this is what I’m doing.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: He can do whatever he wants, but this is what I’m going to do. (pause) I feel like there’s something like – it feels to me like there’s something going on with him with the work. And that it’s hard for him in ways that don’t have anything to do with me. And that he’s not willing to tell me about them or make them not be about me. [00:12:20]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I don’t know (chuckle) what I can do about that.

THERAPIST: And when you’re saying work there, do you mean broadly including stuff in the house, or do you mean his academic work?

CLIENT: His academic work and applying for jobs.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like he doesn’t want an issue there.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That he doesn’t want to acknowledge as such or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) And I both to respect that, and say like, “Well you know, I’m here if you want me. But otherwise, yeah, you can figure it out if you want to. Like just do that. But also this is directly affecting me. This is my life too, and “ I don’t know. [00:13:10][00:14:13] (crying) (pause) (sigh)

THERAPIST: And do you know what it is with the church stuff? (pause)

CLIENT: Not really. I know that like (pause) he doesn’t really get what he needs spiritually out of the church, which is fine. [00:15:17]

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah that’s a thought we have an issue with.

CLIENT: No. (pause) It sort of feels like he doesn’t really like being in the position of like being Mary Poppins; like being that is how people relate to him. But that was one of the things that he didn’t like about going to church there. That like, “Oh your Mary Poppins.”

And like I respect that in a church setting, but sometimes you just have to go to a party to meet my husband. Like that’s what being married is, like that’s the thing. (pause) And I think he also just doesn’t really like the (inaudible at 0:16:04). Which is fine, but (pause) again like, (pause) (sigh) I’d do it for him. (pause) [00:17:04] (pause)

THERAPIST: I’m wondering about something which is, I’m not sort of entrusting anything about what may be going on between the two of you, but it sounds to me like part of your (inaudible at 0:17:49) going on between the two of you, is that like your impression is in the middle of all of this in that seems like maybe you feel as though he’s kind of saying, “You’ve got that, and that’s so you generalized, and I have to make so many accommodations to that, and work so hard because of that. That you know I get to sort of push back, or have it the way I want it or not give you the things you want in these other areas, because I’m giving so much of it here,” is the impression. (pause)

CLIENT: That is a lot of what it feels like. It also sort of feels like he’s saying, “You’ve got the depression, and it’s this huge thing in our lives, and it makes you like not the person that I fell in love with. Like it’s not the side – it’s not the best of you, and that’s gone.”

I’m sort of saying, “Well, here are these places where I’m trying to get back. Like here are these places where I’m trying to come back to myself; come be there with me.” He’s like, “No, I don’t want to do that.” [00:19:18] (pause)

I went out for drinks with Camilla after church last night; it was real good. I both like told her that things were bad, and told her about the thing with James, and it’s really sad, and then we like drank and talked really loudly about theology, which is really my favorite thing to do. [00:20:31] (laughter)

She’s very similar to the people I went to William & Mary, or to a lot of them in terms of like she just like gets really excited, and talks really loudly and really fast, and it’s just like, “Camilla!”

THERAPIST: She’s one of the (inaudible at 0:20:47)?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I miss that. (pause) But I think that like – I think I’m a good person for her also; it’s the thing to be. (pause) So Walter Brueggemann who’s like a giant Old Testament scholar; it’s like the mid centurion leader, came to speak at Cavalry over the weekend. And -

THERAPIST: What do you mean of the mid centurion leader?

CLIENT: Like his most important work was published in like the 60s, I think. (overlapping voices) Yeah. And he just changed the whole face of the field, and so now he’s a professor, and is apparently going around talking about what he really wants to talk about (inaudible at 00:21:55). (chuckle)

I wouldn’t want to (overlapping voices)

THERAPIST: What I was having trouble with was like (overlapping voices). Yeah. (laughter) Eight biblical scholars is a(overlapping voices)

CLIENT: It might have been a little later, but like I think he’s notable. (overlapping voices) But he – so he gave a lecture on Saturday, which I went to, which was really really good; that was basically like his early work. Then apparently his lecture on Sunday; I didn’t end up going to it, and it was like a little more problematic. Basically from what I heard, it sounded like he was talking about stuff that he didn’t actually – like that wasn’t really his area.

So what he was talking about both days was like bruited in his own critical study of the Bible, and then talking about what does the church need to do now? And that really works when you’re sort of critical study is really sound, but when it’s premised on a fundamental misunderstanding of what was happening in the historical time period that you’re talking about, as compared to a (overlapping voices) (pneumatic) (ph) story. [00:23:11]

THERAPIST: baptistery?

CLIENT: Yeah. Then you sort of – it turns into bad theology.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I’d gone to the first one; I hadn’t gone to the second one, and there’s dinner after the evening service last night. So I sat at the dinner, and Camilla came up, and she was like, “I really need to talk to you about this sometime.” (laughter) She was – yeah. It was nice to be sought out in that way. And we talked really loudly about (those) (ph). (laughter)

I’m kidding you. (pause) I always get into these conversations, and then I look up and 20 minutes has gone by, and like I haven’t let anybody else at the table talk. (laughter) I’m like, “Shut down Tanya, shut down.” (laughter) (pause) [00:24:19][00:25:19]

I like her because (pause) you know, when I talk to her about being depressed and [wanting it] (ph) really bad, she hears me, and she listens to me, and sort of empathizes. But she also assumes that I’ll still be able to like think clearly about it and be interested in it.

Which is true, it’s like, you know, I am interested in it. And I don’t know if that’s – it felt like shorthand in my head. (laughter) So (pause) (sigh) one of the things that I want to talk about and think about right now, is the (interaction) (ph) between mental illness, and the church, and psychiatry, and theology, which don’t really think that they have much to say to each other (laughter) for a long time. Or like [inaudible at 00:26:19].

So I ended up talking with her about that, and it wasn’t – (sigh) her assumption was, because you had this very painful experience in this, that makes me more able to be someone to actually talk about it, rather than not being able, which I feel like is often the case. (pause) [00:27:19]

THERAPIST: I mean I’m struggling not to – I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:27:29) is that (pause) you have been using – know more about and are clear about depression, rather than being too depressed to think clearly, or something like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or being unreliable sort of of whatever (happens) (ph).

CLIENT: It feels like it’s been a long time since somebody treated me like I was smart. (pause) Or asked me to be smart. (pause) I don’t know if smart’s actually the word that I was meaning. (pause)

THERAPIST: Like smart as related to valuing your contribution.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:28:29][00:29:29] (pause) I’m sort of stuck on what to talk about. (pause) I don’t want things to be hard. (chuckle) (pause) James’ doing the taxes. (pause) (chuckle) [00:30:29] (pause) Yeah. (pause) We’re at a good place in terms of finances. (pause) [00:31:31] (pause) Yeah, and half of our income are in medical bills, that’s it’s worth it to itemize our deductions this year, which you’re apparently agreeing with. (pause)

And James’ telling me about this that (pause) it seems like most calculated or like estimated tax withholding is like that we owe money instead of getting it back. And you know, it’s looking pretty bleak. He’s like, “But you know, it’ll be okay. We just have to hold on, because I’m going to get another job soon.” I’m like, “Really?” (laughter) (pause)

THERAPIST: Right. [00:33:01] (pause)

CLIENT: I don’t know, I feel like I’m talking today all about like how angry I am at him about this. And I’m like, when I’m with most of the time, even like yesterday; I just felt we’re sort of like enjoying each other’s company. (pause) He’s wants the fight to be over, and I don’t – I sometimes would like to be over it too, but like I’m not done being angry. But I also – or are we really even actually fixing things? (chuckle)

But I also, like I cannot respond – I cannot. Okay yeah, I feel close to you, but I’m afraid (inaudible at 00:34:21) and I – (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, you sort of stated your point. I mean you – you had said before that you felt like a little better, because it was kind of, you know, like your (friend) (ph). What you said was, you did not feel like he was really responding to what you said in the way that you would want. So I can see why you’d still be mad. And I can also see how in talking about Camilla, and also about talking about Camilla, and also like it’s talking about Camilla, and how nice that was. But also about this sort of thing. Like you can’t talk with James about work. [00:35:41]

He doesn’t feel like this sort of stuff is coming back, that he (pause) doesn’t want to be part of.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: And how you’re like between just wanting to be done being mad, but also that – (pause) [00:36:25]-[00:37:27] (pause)

CLIENT: I don’t know. (pause) [00:38:27] (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, (pause) I’m not sure, but it seems (inaudible at 00:38:47) and difficult is you know, [some of our talk] (ph) yesterday to do with you and me, where a little like with Camilla in a way, (pause) there are things we talk about that are kind of are very difficult that you can’t talk with James about. And (pause) what was I going tell you? Yesterday was how that feels wrong, but also (inaudible at 00:39:27) maybe you’re made.

CLIENT: At James?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) I think stepping back a little bit, or not this way for you at all. But (pause) in some – I imagine it feels like much to you like the work you’ve been doing over the last I don’t know, year and a half; couple of years if anything, is like dealing with this sort of depression, and you’re [a stranger] (ph) sort of (inaudible at 00:40:14) with stuff. And here, in other words, like (background noise) I would imagine there’s a lot of (history) (ph) in thinking about and sort of working on in a way -

CLIENT: Yeah. Well it’s definitely felt like it’s been (inaudible at 00:40:27).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I also feel like James and I were pretty explicit a year ago that that was my main job. But it’s not (pause) I don’t know. (pause) It’s not – I just feel like I can’t really – I can’t talk with James about it, or it feels like that’s -

THERAPIST: And then he feels very much outside of that. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: To you. I mean to say whether he feels outside of church, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) And I don’t feel like that’s being the case. I also feel like (pause) I just feel like when I talk to him about it, he always wants to hold me to what I said in the previous conversation. And I’m like (chuckle) that’s really not all correct. (laughter) Then I get really anxious about it, because I feel like I have to be some like consistent person, in a way that I don’t feel like I can do. I feel like I’m being honest right now. [00:42:12] (pause) (background noise)

I think the thing that feels like a betrayal, and I don’t know if I’m betraying James, or James’ betraying me. It just felt like (pause) it doesn’t feel safe to talk to him. (pause) It does feel safe to talk to you. And like James said yesterday; he’s like, “I don’t want to make it so that there’s no safe place for you.” And I said, “Well, that’s already the way it is.” (pause) And that – that’s really hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: So I feel bad, but like this is the place that I’m safe, where at home, it’s not. But I’m not going to give this up. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: True. [00:43:19] (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t quite know why that happened. [00:44:19] (pause) I don’t know (inaudible at 00:44:37)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) We should stop here.

CLIENT: Yeah.

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