TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Okay, the 18th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd. So two weeks from today [inaudible at 00:00:08] Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. If I can reschedule any of them I’ll let you know.
CLIENT: Okay, thanks.
THERAPIST: Are you I’ll say one thing that’s part of it and that is, are you working that week?
CLIENT: The 18th through the 23rd? I actually don’t know. Actually, yes, yes I am. I think kids might be on Spring Break but they’re not going anywhere.
THERAPIST: I’m asking because I could probably reschedule for the Thursday but it would be during the day, which probably wouldn’t work for you.
CLIENT: Okay. Thanks. So I don’t know what it is about Dunkin’ Donuts but every time I go I get a donut and a cup of tea. And every time I say this is sort of gross. I don’t like this very much. I don’t why am I doing this? And then I just really, really want a donut and a cup of tea the next time I pass by. Today I ended up I went into work today so I was there until I was coming back at four and about to get on the train and thought shit I haven’t eaten anything today. So I felt okay with that. [00:01:31]
There’s always one moment where it’s perfect and then by the end of the donut you’re thinking nope, crap. [Laughs] And also I got up at 6:00 today, which I recognize that there are many people who get up at 6:00 every day, including Frank and Kim (ph), but it is not fun. [Laughs] I’m really tired. I had a lot of, I’ve just been drinking tea all day so I’m at the point where I’m all jittery but I’m still tired. I’m too tired for the caffeine to pull me out of it. But oh well. [00:02:25]
Other than that actually I’m doing pretty well. I’ve had a good couple of days. And maybe just having the fight with James was good. I didn’t realize still I didn’t feel good about it when it was happening; I didn’t feel relieved immediately afterwards. I don’t remember a lot but a few days ago I just told him I’m still angry, this is still a problem and we talked about it some more. But since then my mood has been better. [00:03:16]
Also I don’t know whether you move this footstool or it just happens that everyone who goes before me doesn’t use it but thank you. The kids were sort of in fine form today. Just Tallie (ph) got out of school and all three of them wanted to do three different things all of which required my full participation. It was nice to be popular. [Laughs] I taught Keller (ph) how to make a friendship bracelet, which is totally up his alley. He just really likes things that require some level of skill and focus but not too much that he can’t do them so he gets frustrated. He was super into it and then Tallie (ph) said I think I’m going to play with my blocks on top of it, on top of what Keller (ph) was doing. I said Tallie a (ph) you have an entire room; there’s all of this space. [00:04:56]
Tallie (ph) said I want to do another kind of art project but it has to happen at the same time and Tanya needs to help. Yes, I’ve done pretty well. I think I really need to prioritize sleep and being by myself this weekend because otherwise I’m going to crash. I also didn’t get home from work until 8:30 last night. [00:05:51]
[Pause]
The tea’s [inaudible at 00:06:25] but it tastes like Lipton. I also have I’m feeling better and I think oh there’s all of these things that I want to do in my free time but I haven’t had any free time so I don’t know. I sort of, I don’t know my mind’s been sort of going a mile a minute today. I’m going to go home and do all of the projects. Really, that’s probably not the best idea. But then also I don’t feel like this that often so I sort of want to milk it. [00:07:34]
[Pause]
I was also thinking about a friend of mine from a hospital stay at least a year ago who was I think Bipolar I. She said I don’t know what people are talking about when they say being manic’s not fun. Being manic is awesome. I said well okay. She probably wasn’t Bipolar I but that was her opinion but I don’t know. I don’t know. [00:08:38]
[Pause]
I just feel like I haven’t sat down all day. I have but I haven’t really sat down and also not been, I haven’t been unfocused all day if that makes sense. I’ve been this morning [00:09:17]
THERAPIST: That tells you how sitting down when you sat down to show Keller (ph) how to make a friendship bracelet while the other two are yanking on you. That’s not quite what you mean by sitting down.
CLIENT: Yes. And this morning I had to get up early because I had to go to a meeting for church. It was this Christian formation task force which basically what it’s turning out to be is how do, what do, what can we as a congregation do to be more awesome and very sort of broad thinking, broad spectrum, dreaming big and saying what are the possibilities for us? And that’s really fun to be part of. And it’s really, very engaging in a way that I miss a lot. That’s why I leave those meetings going a mile a minute. I have all the ideas all at once. But everyone else seems to too.
THERAPIST: So you still go at night? [00:10:52]
CLIENT: Yes, yes it’s awesome. It’s awesome. And it’s a really good group of people. It’s very smart, earnest people who really care about the church and care about what they’re there for. It’s just great. There’s enough similarity of vision that we can get shit done and enough difference of vision that it’s not a foregone conclusion what’s going to happen. [00:11:44]
THERAPIST: There’s actual engagement about stuff?
CLIENT: Yes.
THERAPIST: That you care about? [00:12:18]
CLIENT: Yes. Yes, I feel like I’m actually contributing. I can tell that the group is better than it would be if I weren’t there. But at the same time I’m not caring so it’s really good. It sort of remains to be seen how that will all play out. Churches are big and clunky and hard to turn, especially a church like this where a lot of the stuff that we’re talking about is saying well there are these sort of subtle cultural things and ways of thinking about our community and thinking about what it means to have a spiritual life that we want to shift. And so that’s not fast or easy. [00:13:35]
THERAPIST: I think that maybe one of your worries coming in here when you’re feeling better is whether I’m going to be interested or engaged with the things that you’re focused on or have in mind if it’s not stuff about feeling bad but rather stuff that you just care about, like the stuff going on in church. [00:14:20]
CLIENT: Yes. I don’t know how much, yes I don’t know how much to talk about that.
THERAPIST: I guess I imagine part of you in that it might be part of how much do you want to. But I think the other part is when are you going to lose my interest or something like that.
CLIENT: You know, I mean the things that I get really excited about are theology and ancient history and dressmaking [laughing] and feminism, and not even really the feminism any more. I feel like I’ve sort of worked that problem out to my own satisfaction and I’m tired of talking about it. [00:15:24]
THERAPIST: I see. So we’re talking theology, history and dressmaking.
CLIENT: Basically.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I guess I’m just saying as with most people, yes.
THERAPIST: And usually just not lose me.
CLIENT: I just hate the moment when you’re in a story and you suddenly realize that this person doesn’t care about what I’m talking about, or I’ve been talking way too long; that moment that I realize that the conversation is about me instead of about the conversation. I hate that. And then it’s made kind of tricky to transfer in here. [00:16:18]
THERAPIST: Yes, I imagine it does.
CLIENT: And sort of by source I think it’s been doing therapy so intensively has made it a challenge for me to remember how to have a normal conversations with other people. I don’t know. I feel like I’ve sort of woken up and noticed myself being boring a lot recently. And by recently I mean the last six months. [00:17:03]
So the thing I’m thinking about right now is a sort of a problem I have today. So Walter Brigham (ph) came to talk and one of the things he talked about, I might have actually talked about this, is being an exiled people, like a people in exile. So one of the things was what does it mean to be a church in exile and so using the story of exile as a metaphor for what we as a church are in now. And so that sounds good. And then I realized he meant by exile that we’re not the dominant cultural paradigm anymore. Not everybody is Christian anymore. I think are you f***king kidding me? No, no, that’s not at all what that means. [00:18:08]
And sort of I laugh because otherwise it’s just so offensive. We can say that we’re a church in exile but then there are actual migrant workers in the United States, maybe they count more. It’s sort of like say I’m saying the rectory is comfortable but not opulent; you just don’t know what that means. If you have a two-car garage in Denver, yes, that’s opulent, just shut up. Just own it. I don’t know, so I’m thinking about that. [00:19:13]
But I also in my writing, in my thinking I don’t want to just be in I feel like if all I have to say is negative, like no you’re not getting this right, then, and then I stop there then that doesn’t actually contribute much. Cursing terrible theological statements like that is useful but then I feel like I want to say well what would it mean to be a church in exile? What would it be to think about that? Is that something we want or is that something that we think is important? Is that something we have any control over? [00:20:06]
So Sam was saying oh well the story of The Prodigal Son is in exile, which is the son the father has two sons. The son says do you know the story of the Prodigal Son? Okay, the father has two sons and he says, one of the sons said I want my half of my inheritance now so I can go out and make a name for myself somewhere else. So the father gives his inheritance. He goes out and he spends it on booze and hookers and ends up broke and working as a manual laborer. And he says I should go home because even the servants in my father’s house are better off than I am now, so I’ll go home and say I’m no longer worthy to be called your son but please let me be one of your servants now. And so he goes home and the father -
THERAPIST: Is this the prodigal son returning? Is that ?
CLIENT: Yes, yes. And the father sees him coming, runs out to meet him and throws him a party and says I’m so glad my son was lost and is now found. And the other son is thinking hey I’ve been working here this whole time and you don’t have a party for me. And Dad basically just says suck it up. This is an occasion for rejoicing. I’m really glad you’re here but this is a big deal. [00:21:24]
And so there he’s saying that is a story of exile, the prodigal son being gone and coming back. And I said no, no, no, you don’t understand what that means because if you get to choose to leave it’s not exile.
THERAPIST: I get your point.
CLIENT: [Laughs] And so in some ways I feel like even by posing the question is asking do we think of ourselves as a church in exile or not? That is, it’s not an option. It’s something that either happens to you or it doesn’t. I feel like an essential part of trauma is that you don’t choose it. [00:22:10]
THERAPIST: Yes, I mean it sounds like a part of what really bothered you about what, I’m sorry what was the guy’s name?
CLIENT: Walter Brigham (ph)?
THERAPIST: Walter, yes, said was the majority of that or the center of majority is one thing, power is something entirely different. And I thought about it like Christianity even if its numbers are getting relatively small in the United States, which I assume is what he’s referring to.
CLIENT: Yes by which he means 2/3 of Americans are Christian.
THERAPIST: Right. Certainly his, by far power-wise, the dominant group has to do with -
CLIENT: Yes, being slightly less than centered doesn’t make you on the margins. Yes, sorry. [00:23:02]
THERAPIST: Yes, no, no. Right and if the kid in the story had a choice to get all his money and leave and blew it, part of that problem is that’s similarly done from a position of privilege.
CLIENT: Yes, yes. I mean it’s one of my favorite biblical stories. I think it’s a beautiful story but it’s not about what you want it to be about. It’s beautiful for other ways. It’s beautiful because when you do f***k up from a place of privilege then there’s a way to go home again.
THERAPIST: Yes, not only exile. Or maybe I’m missing your point.
CLIENT: No, I don’t think so. I was just that’s the end of what I was thinking about. [Laughs] I’m also thinking about, thinking about reading the Bible and particularly many are classically terrible at reading the Bible. They don’t even know what’s in the Bible; nobody reads the Bible ever. [00:24:43]
And so they’re doing this year of the Bible thing in my church, which is a nice idea but what it has boiled down to is somebody stands up and gives a talk about a biblical book or gives an introduction to it. And that’s been very popular but it seems to me as though the congregation is still sort of waiting to be given permission to read it on their own and I feel that’s the wrong way to go about it. [00:25:22]
But so I’ve got on the one hand, so on the one hand there’s this new clericalism that’s says well this is really complicated and you really can’t approach it without somebody telling you what it’s about and telling you what to think and I don’t really want that. On the other hand we all see what happens with fundamentalists’ views of the Bible where they read it without any context or with these crappy assed translations that’s basically just making things up. And they’re trying to make things easy and saying well you know any interpretation is really okay. And that’s not okay either but I don’t know. I don’t think I’m going to fix that one. Some interpretations are just wrong. [00:26:38]
THERAPIST: I’m excited (ph). Now I know it.
[Laughter]
CLIENT: Yes.
THERAPIST: I guess I don’t know if it was clear what I was referring to. Traditionally when a therapist tries to analyze and has something to say that’s an interpretation.
CLIENT: Yes, yes, no I got that. I wasn’t actually thinking about your job then. It’s very easy for me to say there are this round of interpretations that work or that fit and then there are these interpretations that don’t fit. But it’s also very difficult for me to explain to people why something falls into one category or the other. It’s just, I don’t know. [00:27:47]
THERAPIST: Referring to this or referring to they look old?
CLIENT: Whatever just anything in the spectrum. People look to us like teaching English, all of that. But some interpretations are just wrong comes from an English class that I taught. When my students played a prank on me by interpreting Keats’ Ode To a Nightingale it was about alcoholism and taking data for half an hour. The whole class said no I think this is it, this is it, pointing to passages. And I was sort of trying to show them from within the text well but does that really fit with this one or what’s going on here? And they just wouldn’t give it up. And so by then I said some interpretations are just wrong. Then they told me what was going on and I thought it was brilliant. [00:28:47]
[Pause]
Isaac’s book is great. I’m still in touch with some of those girls because they’re on Facebook. One student actually today said I have an idea for a short story. What if this were, what if Seymour (ph), actually the good guy, told us that? And I said this is Agnostic gospel. You would really like this entire genre of ancient literature. [00:30:17]
[Pause]
I feel like days like today are sort of like shaking a snow globe really hard, just everything sort of all over the place. I try to catch it before it comes down which I guess would make me in the snow globe. I don’t really know. [Pause] Also we might not have to go to this party tomorrow, which would [00:33:37]
THERAPIST: Oh the chemistry party?
CLIENT: Yes because we still don’t have a car that works.
THERAPIST: That works because that one’s out?
CLIENT: Yes.
THERAPIST: Right. Oh yes, it’s an hour west of here you said.
CLIENT: Yes. I mean there is a commuter rail that takes us. I told James if it was going to be more than an hour and a half I didn’t want to do it. [00:34:06]
[Pause]
I was just thinking when today, when was this week that I had a drink with Camilla and just cried at the bar? And then I thought oh yes, it was this week. It feels like the blue (ph) is coming and going. It feels like I’m walking out of one room and into another. It’s just intuitive (ph). And I’ve been just thinking a lot about how different it is right now. [00:36:10]
THERAPIST: You seem maybe a bit anxious?
CLIENT: A little bit. I feel like I’m going to crash pretty hard. I’m worried about that. [Pause] I guess I’m not so worried about I mean maybe this isn’t a particularly different side of me but I feel like it is quite different than I usually am in here. And so I don’t know I worry about that difference being sustainable for you, does that make sense? [00:37:38]
THERAPIST: I guess I don’t know what you mean by being sustainable.
CLIENT: I’m worried whether you’ll be able to tolerate that difference.
THERAPIST: Tolerate how you’re being now?
CLIENT: Yes, yes. Or the phrase that came to mind is I worry that both of the space be real, be allowed to be real or something. [00:38:26]
THERAPIST: I think it follows both this one and the more usual, the more depressing one. And I think maybe this one isn’t credible with me in some way.
CLIENT: Maybe. I don’t know if credible is the right word though. I feel like at least with some people I feel like I can only have a relationship with them, it sort of blindsided me. I feel like most people in church, our relationship depends on my being able to be sort of excited and talking really fast in this way. [00:39:32]
THERAPIST: It’s a little bit like what we were talking about to do with sort of my losing interest but not quite the same. A little more I don’t know pervasive or something, like I can’t relate to you this way or I can’t relate to you when you are this way or I’m not interested in that or something. [00:40:10]
CLIENT: I don’t know. I worry that you’ll feel betrayed; that you’ll say oh well that these other times must not have been real if you can now do this. I don’t know where that’s coming from but there it is.
THERAPIST: There it is.
[Pause]
THERAPIST: Yes, I guess I thought about it backwards because I was thinking that you were concerned I might not find your better mood now credible in light of how you had been but it feels more like the other way around. [00:41:10]
CLIENT: Yes I guess so, which when you think back it’s sort of surprising. It just occurred to me that you could probably say you seem a little anxious basically any time ever and that would work. [Laughs] I used to think that.
THERAPIST: Maybe this is pushing it too far but what occurred to me was brought up in the beginning about the donut and the tea that that’s how I’m going to find this mood. Nice at first maybe but then I don’t want to deal with this or something. Maybe that’s more critical than what you had in mind. [00:42:27]
CLIENT: I don’t know if it’s more critical but I don’t think I really sat and thought that.
THERAPIST: I’ve heard some interpretations are just wrong.
CLIENT: How do I stand I know so many people who are not really comfortable thinking in this mode of I don’t understand it. It’s the only way I know how to think. I don’t know. Yes, I’m having a hard time articulating what I [00:43:46]
[Pause]
I don’t think I’m I think I’m stealing this from somewhere but it’s sort of like saying Moby Dick can only really be a story about a whale.
THERAPIST: Do you mean not thinking in sort of an interpretive fashion sort of means that Moby Dick the story is pretty much just about a whale? [00:44:24]
CLIENT: Yes but not seeing that those are real, not seeing that that’s, yes that that’s real.
THERAPIST: We should stop. So factor on you to assign Monday?
CLIENT: Okay, yes. [00:45:01]
END TRANSCRIPT
