TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I’m still working on meeting on Friday morning. Also, I’m always running five minutes late by this time on Mondays, so do you want to start at ten of? (both laugh) Then I’ll be more on time. I don’t like starting at a quarter of if I’m really never, ever starting at quarter of.

CLIENT: That’s fine. I don’t really notice any more, so okay.

THERAPIST: Some days I’m on time, but on Monday I’m not.

CLIENT: Sounds good. (both laugh) How are you feeling?

THERAPIST: Better. Not over it, but better.

CLIENT: Good. (pause) [00:00:53] I got to church at like 15 or 10 minutes before the service started and I went downstairs to see if Jared, who is the other guy who does the dinner afterwards, needs any help to make sure that everything was okay there. They were like, “Hey! You’re here. We need to you loan tonight” to be a Eucharistic minister person “and it’s Palm Sunday, so we’re doing all this crazy stuff and we need you to do that.” And so I did. It was hard. It wasn’t hard; it was more just like nobody had any idea what they were doing and I always feel sort of awkward about that. I think somebody, like one of the people who is supposed to serve and the one who was on it before, just had knee surgery and she fell and wrenched her knee, so she is out of commission for now. That was a little bit of a cluster fuck. [00:02:00] I grew up with Palm Sunday. My dad would usually get an actual donkey for the service and everyone would walk around outside and have a procession and waive palms around. It was supposed to be a little bit crazy. (laughs) (pause) Trinity tends to be a little bit . . . You know, there is a lot of fear in liturgy and they tend to want to have everything go off perfectly and that is sort of at odds with what I think it’s for, but also it’s very easy for me to be influenced by other people’s desires in that way and to fret about doing everything right.

THERAPIST: I follow. [00:03:01] I think the focus on everyone getting everything right is that it’s wrong-headed or (inaudible at 00:03:09)? It can still make you anxious to make you want to not have people be frustrated and disappointed when it’s not turning out the way they wanted.

CLIENT: Yeah. The whole congregation marched around town, waiving palms and singing, so that was really fun. (both laugh) (pause) [00:04:03] James and I talked about sex in couple’s counseling today. That was sort of intimidating. (laughs) I don’t know. (pause) I find it difficult to talk about, for reasons which are not that clear to me. I feel like I really shouldn’t find it hard to talk about, but I do. (pause) It’s hard for me to know that so much of my relationship with James is not in my control. [00:05:05] I need to do my best – and I do do my best – and look for ways to be a better partner and listen and try to figure out what’s going on. But I sort of feel like we’re coming up against over and over where I just have to let James decide whether he is going to trust me or not. I can do some things there, but I can’t do a lot – or there is a lot that I can’t do. (pause) [00:06:04]

I had tea with John (sp?) on Saturday, a friend from (inaudible at 00:06:12). It was really good.

THERAPIST: Is he the one who accidentally – or not accidentally – always screws everything up?

CLIENT: Yes. [It’s the same one who ruins everything.] (ph?) Yeah. (laughs) Broke Candace’s foot, broke her heart, all of that.

THERAPIST: By accident, maybe not so much.

CLIENT: I think it was by accident. He is this very charismatic, attractive person and I think he’s sort of like me; he gets really excited about people at the beginning of a relationship, either a friend or a romantic relationship, and then I think for him – we ended up talking about this, actually – he said he gets really, really into people and then it just sort of goes away and he just doesn’t want to stay with them. [00:07:10] What do you do in that situation? And for Candace, I think he was really into her as a person, but he never wanted to be with her and I don’t think he handled it all that well. I said, “You can’t get married.” (laughs) He is dating this woman and was talking about, “We’re going to go ring shopping after this.” That’s the thing and it was weird to be talking with him about marriage and be, on the one hand, really excited for him and really pro-marriage and really excited about James and really just kind of loving James. [00:08:12] And all of a sudden I was like, “Yeah, he might leave me. I don’t know whether we’re going to work or not.” And for whatever reason, I was pretty fine saying all of those things and having all of those things be true and letting John know that all of those things were true. So I feel good about that, but less good about the feeling that James basically is in the long process of deciding whether he wants to stay married to me or not. [00:08:56] (pause) (crying)

I think in some ways things have gotten easier for us, for James to be able to acknowledge that, I think. I’ve had a few months to sort of sneak up to the idea – maybe sneak up is the wrong word – maybe edge up sideways while looking in the other direction. (chuckles) [00:10:00] I don’t want that to happen. I don’t want to assume . . . (long pause) but I would survive it. (long pause) [00:11:57] I wonder on the one hand, I have the impulse to say, “This is sort of out of my hands. I just have to wait for something to make whatever internal change he is going to make.” On the other hand, I sort of think maybe I’m just trying to say “it’s out of my hands” because I don’t want to face the fact that I’m failing at fixing this. (laughs) (pause) [It’s all I’ve thought of and have been talking about today.] (ph?) [00:13:00] (long pause) [00:14:25] I had a good week.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: (inaudible at [0:14:27] (pause)

THERAPIST: It sounds like you may have brought up two things that you kind of want to talk about, but also maybe kind of really don’t.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:15:15]

THERAPIST: Things with James – what you can and can’t be in control of – I guess especially with him, and what made talking about sex so difficult. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It feels less that I’m afraid to talk about it or don’t want to talk about it and more like I want to talk about it, but I don’t really know where to start. I don’t know what to say. [00:16:16] It’s like I don’t have a way in. I’m not really sure I trust the feeling, though. (laughs) (long pause) [00:17:59]

THERAPIST: I have the impression that you want it from me and that it would make it easier, but I’m only partially sure what it is. I think this is probably one of those things that you should talk about. I have some questions and kind of lead the discussion, in a way, or facilitate in order to help you think and talk about it. I guess what I have in mind is that if I were to do something like that, that’s what might put you at ease. So what I’m trying to think about is why, because that might make clear what you’re anxious about. And I don’t know if it’s because you think it’s something that I find it was important to talk about or if it would feel like you were clear in where I was coming from because I was sort of facilitating your talking about it in some way, so I wouldn’t feel quiet and predictable. [00:19:02]

CLIENT: (laughing) Quiet and unpredictable is a really good descriptor of how I feel about you a lot. (pause) I guess I worry that I’m going to say the wrong thing and that I can’t tell what that might be a lot of the time and that I’m going to do some damage to you or to our relationship.

THERAPIST: You’re sort of in a mine field. [00:20:05]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And when it comes to subjects like these, (inaudible at 00:20:16)

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: I guess I imagine my being unpredictable . . . (long pause) [00:21:11] Yeah, it doesn’t make me think of the control thing because you are (inaudible at 00:21:15) we only partly know what we are saying. I’m always going to find something which may be right or wrong or .

CLIENT: I can think of several different things that that might apply to. (laughs) Funny. (pause) [00:22:03] And that, in some ways, is one of the things that I find really, really appealing about this sort of therapy, but it’s also sort of scary. I guess I find it sort of intellectually appealing and actually scary. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Right. Sometimes those things hurt you a lot and you didn’t see them coming.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:22:56] I think also because you’re a person, you can’t actually not have any expression. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That’s true.

CLIENT: So sometimes I do say things and your reaction makes me think this wasn’t the right thing to say, for one reason or another. It’s hard for me to tell to what extent that is sort of my own creation, probably a great deal, but there is. You’re always going to give me something to work with; that’s sort of the point. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Right. Even when somebody is on the couch, you still often give them, there is always something for them to work with. [00:24:02] (pause)

CLIENT: So I can’t know when I’m going to hit that and often I only feel like I notice that I’ve hit it after the fact, like I’ll go away and sort of dwell on it.

THERAPIST: When I said about being on the couch, did that a little bit . . ?

CLIENT: A little bit. I find it really scary to think about, actually. The couch scares the shit out of me and I don’t know why because we tried it, right, in the very beginning? [00:25:00] It really scares me. (pause)

THERAPIST: You really don’t ever have to use the couch.

CLIENT: I know, but I don’t actually know that. I don’t know. (voice breaking) (crying)

THERAPIST: Okay. [I think it’s] (ph?) separate from what scares you.

CLIENT: I know. With how many of your patients do you use the couch – percentage-wise? (both laugh)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:25:59) it could be hardly anybody; anybody but one. [00:26:12] (pause) I could imagine you feel like there already is a rupture in our relationship because you’re not using the couch, and I think that’s what you’re supposed to do. Even if I say you don’t have to, I think it would be better. You are terrified of it, for whatever reason, and so it’s like you already feel like I don’t think that you’re doing a good job or not doing this right or something like that. [00:27:08] I imagine it’s something along those lines.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s like I know that none of those things are true, but that doesn’t make it go away.

THERAPIST: Yes. (pause) I guess, in a way, you’re saying you sort of have a condition that I think you’re already doing things wrong, like some basic thing, in the wrong way. [00:27:58] My guess is that you feel I am probably distancing myself from you or being critical, if not about to call it quits or something.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I haven’t gotten that far.

THERAPIST: Sure. (pause)

CLIENT: I guess it feels like I’m doing something fundamental really wrong; and so when things are hard for me, that must be my own fault. (pause) [00:29:28]

THERAPIST: I imagine that’s part of what would make it so hard to talk about; some of the things that came up earlier were similar to this. (pause) I don’t know. I guess what I was thinking was you must feel like it’s only a matter of time before it emerges how I think that you’re doing something wrong. [00:30:13] (pause)

CLIENT: That makes sense. (pause) I get very frustrated because I want you to just tell me what I’m doing wrong. (chuckles) Clearly it’s lots of things. [00:30:48] (long pause) [00:33:21] I feel like I’ve sort of lost track of our conversation. (long pause) [00:34:35] (crying) I just can’t do it. I can’t get it right. (pause) [00:34:57] I can’t figure out what right is. Last night, not only were they going to conscript me at the last minute, but I walked in like two-thirds of the way through them going over what was going to happen, so I missed instructions. (chuckling) (crying) I couldn’t do it. (pause) It’s not a big deal, but I can’t let it go. (crying) [00:35:51]

THERAPIST: You mean that you told them that you couldn’t?

CLIENT: No, I couldn’t do it right. I fucked up. Not in a big way, but [in some sort of an awkward reshuffling.] (ph?) (pause) [00:36:53] the best part is that I wasn’t the person who messed up the most, by any means, by any stretch. (inaudible at 00:37:01) words of institution during the Eucharist. [00:37:03]That’ s like the biggest part of the Eucharist, where you are being the body and blood of Jesus. (laughs) And it’s the same words, all the different versions, and so the only part of the right that’s the same, with all the different words that are said, you just messed it up. Once they came out, somebody else had messed it up, and that’s not a big deal for me. It’s not a big deal at all. It’s like – whatever. It doesn’t matter. There are actually theological reasons why it doesn’t matter, but I can’t . . . I don’t know. [00:38:04] (long pause) [00:39:15]

THERAPIST: I guess, in a sort of general way, it seems to me that as painful as this all is for you – and it seems very painful – there is kind of a distancing and protecting.

CLIENT: Kind of.

THERAPIST: I suspect you do it, too, with me, like your conviction that you’re doing this wrong and you’re doing it probably wrong in a bunch of different ways. I felt pretty clear about that, too. [00:40:01] And for whatever reasons, which doesn’t make a lot of sense, I’m not telling you; but I’m thinking it and you know it. You feel awful about it; I think really ashamed, terrible, and that makes it hard to talk about stuff. (pause) It seems to me like a lot of pulling away on that part.

CLIENT: While I may focus on this, I don’t have to actually talk about it.

THERAPIST: In this relationship, I’m way back here in this sort of dark and painful corner with what I’m feeling and thinking because really, the big story here is how you’re doing this all wrong. [00:41:10]

CLIENT: You are?

THERAPIST: You. I’m sorry if I’m not being very clear. What I have in mind is there is like a retreat involved in it, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I’m sure there is a lot more to say about it that I don’t understand.

CLIENT: I’m actually still trying to figure out what you were talking about before. So I’m way back here – is the “I” me or you?

THERAPIST: You.

CLIENT: Okay, okay. It makes sense. I wasn’t sure. [00:41:59]

THERAPIST: You retreat into a very painful and shame-ridden place, a corner or something, which also I think, feels to you distant or distant from me.

CLIENT: That makes sense.

THERAPIST: And I imagine, probably at church and with James, too, I don’t know what to make of it. There could well be more reality to it with you and James, but it’s uncannily similar where I know I, Tanya, know and you, Chad, think that I’m doing all these things wrong and you’re not telling me or maybe vaguely indicating it in ways that I kind of read but that you’re not owning up to. I, Tanya, and you, Chad, are not owning up to it explicitly. [00:43:12] At least to me, that is exactly how you talk about what happens with James.

CLIENT: No, that makes sense. (pause) It’s tricky with James because I can see that it’s the same way of talking about it. I’m pretty sure it’s actually what James is doing, so it makes me feel like I can’t tell what’s real and what’s coming from him and what’s coming from me.

THERAPIST: Right. That’s why I say there may well be more reality to it. I don’t know. [00:44:00]

CLIENT: But no, you’re right.

THERAPIST: We should stop for today.

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