TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: Hi. So possibly related to what we were talking about yesterday, I’m finally watching Mad Men, which is so good, and also horrible. And so yes, really good I like it a lot. But so I’m in the first season, only six or seven episodes. So I get to the line last night where Don Draper is telling his wife that “grief is just extended self pity” and I said no, done for the night, [laughing] turning it off.
It’s just so well written, which I guess I’m saying because I don’t know, I really like that style of writing that’s both very sort of coded and very revelatory. People just say these awful things that just sort of blossom, all the things they didn’t mean to say. It’s really well written. [00:01:34]
I like it so far. I feel like this happens to me a lot where I start watching a show at the beginning and rave (ph) that it’s on its final season and everyone else is watching the final season. I actually really like knowing what’s going to happen. Didn’t nix my enjoyment of it considering it makes me a little less anxious. So I was talking to [inaudible at 00:02:22], the book that he just finished, which is apparently more [00:02:27]
THERAPIST: Was this the [inaudible at 00:02:28] Adventure?
CLIENT: I’m sorry?
THERAPIST: Was this -
CLIENT: No, this was the book after that. It was called Gone Girl. It came out a couple years ago and apparently everybody liked it a lot and it’s sort of a psychological thriller, psychological drama. And he wanted to talk with me about it but I’d also said I wanted to read it and so he didn’t want to spoil anything for me. And so I’d ask did the husband kill the wife, and he’d say do you want me to tell you that. [00:03:09]
But I read a lot of detective or mysteries, a lot. So the problem was he would say tell me one thing and I would say oh, did the wife fake her journal in order to make the police think that she killed her husband? And he would say yes. [Laughing] So I ended up pretty much knowing what happens.
I helped Victoria move. It was fine. I was she’s moving today; I was just helping her pack everything. There was another friend of her I haven’t met before, so there were all these people and her roommates weren’t there so it was fine. [Pause] She’s a little weird; she’s a little odd in a way that I find sort of approachable and nice. But I feel like a lot of weird people show up for church. There’s just the congregation that I’m in, particularly the evening service which is the one that I go to a lot of the sort of regular people are really weird. I sort of think well, here we all are. [00:04:58]
[Pause]
The other day I sort of, I mentioned the ECT or the stuff before the ECT and I thought I had talked with her about that but apparently I hadn’t because she said what, memory loss? I said yes, I had ECT and I lost two years of my memory and she said yes, so did I. I said what? And so we talked about that. She, in college, had a similar experience to mine that’s just having a heady ECT experience. [00:06:04]
She seemed pretty invested in telling me about it in this stressing that it was unnecessary because she doesn’t have any underlying psychiatric issues. She said I don’t actually get depressed and then she was telling me her symptoms and I said no you were pretty depressed. Just because you may not be depressed perennially in the same way, it can still be a really bad experience and not the right treatment for you and you also needing other kinds of care.
But, yes. [Pause] I did end up sending an e-mail to the woman who hijacked my Facebook wall and hurt my feelings to say this is what I felt like happened to me. I said I don’t really, I’m not that interested in talking about it forever and I don’t need any events (ph) made. I just value you as conversation partners and I felt like it was important to say something. Then I sent that out and I immediately turned off the computer. [Laughs] So, we’ll see on that placement (ph) or if it does at all. [00:08:08]
[Pause]
James’ been talking with me about application stuff, which is nice. Yes, overdue but it’s here now. I don’t know. [Pause] Yes, I’ll see.
[Pause]
I sent Victoria that essay that I had written about, the ECT, and she’s already wrote back whoa that’s pretty serious and it was hard for me to read. She sort of said you should’ve warned me this was really intense. That didn’t really sit well with me. I mean it didn’t, I don’t know. Yes, I said well, it had not occurred to me that other people would find it distressing to read or more distressing than anybody else. Then I wrote a note to Lily at the top. I don’t know. [00:10:55]
[Pause]
I started to tell James a story last night and then he sort of forestalled me by telling me that I told him the exact same story. It was about eating ice cream that was called Paul Revere’s Ride so I started parking (ph) at the phone. He said yes you told me this when we were walking across the bridge at Harvard that had the poem on it. I said oh yes, no, I don’t remember that at all. [00:12:07]
[Pause]
The other day I got some money. I feel like I’m spending more of my weekends either taking care of the house or cooking things or doing laundry, all the things I need to be doing, or spending time with people. It’s just great; that is what I want and I sort of have to make room for everything. I just have to make time still. [00:15:22]
[Pause]
So the first episode, maybe the second episode of the whole show, Betty Draper goes to see a psychiatrist is the plot of the episode. And I said son of a bitch, really, come on. But I really like the way they’re doing it because most of the time when TV or movie writers bring in therapy, it’s used in the context of we’re too lazy to the writing is just lazy. We’re too lazy to give you these revelations about the characters so we’re going to have them talk about them explicitly and directly in this therapist’s office, place where you only get to see 30 seconds of total revelation and nothing else. It’s all really easy. And so the way they have it is she’s on the couch and she’s talking and doesn’t she’s just talking [00:16:58]
THERAPIST: Off-stage (ph) like a soliloquy or something to the audience?
CLIENT: Yes but it’s, the way they shoot it is very interesting because they spend a lot of face time on the psychiatrist and on he’s very non-responsive. He takes a lot of notes and he’s not really, he doesn’t make eye contact with her and he’s not, she’ll look over at him and he’s not and he hasn’t said anything so far what I’ve been watching. And the thing that I think is interesting is first when she’s talking with Don later on, he sort of makes a crack about her therapist and she says don’t put him down. She’s very defensive and she says this is helping. So clearly something that she needs is being met. [00:17:49]
Another thing that I really like about it is that she doesn’t talk about what she wants to talk about. She doesn’t, yes, it’s a it’s not simple and it’s not this sort of clear expression of directly what the character issues are. So I was pleased. I’m glad you don’t take notes. That would piss me off. I’m not sure why but I feel like [pause] have you watched Mad Men? [00:18:53]
THERAPIST: I’ve seen the things you’ve said about the [inaudible at 00:19:00]. I guess they have a little bit of sense of the characters and some of the men, sort of the style of the show and maybe a little bit of the writing. [00:19:21]
[Pause]
CLIENT: But yes I like it. I feel like every piece of the production knows exactly what it’s doing and that’s really rare on television. One of the reasons I haven’t watched it up to now is that people talk about the certain pervasive sexism on the show and that’s something that’s just appalling and not called out in the movie at all. But I don’t want to do that; I’m there. That actually doesn’t really bother me because it’s so clear that it’s not condoned by the writers. It’s not like the writers think this behavior is okay but it’s also if we invented some way for people to be punished for the sexism that they were actually rewarded for in this time period, that would be false. It wouldn’t, yes. [00:21:05]
THERAPIST: I guess I imagined that it’s pretty clear they’re not making it look any better than it was, the sexism, in a way that they’re neither sort of glorifying it nor understating in a way that it feels honest.
CLIENT: Yes. That’s like my sense. I don’t actually know very much about that period and I feel I’m reading about it, I hear people arguing both ways that they do sort of understate it and also glorify this time and maybe this time period and also that they overstate it, that it wasn’t really that bad this time. I find that I don’t actually care all that much. It’s sort of it’s internally consistent. [00:22:05]
THERAPIST: I guess backing up a little bit, I did imagine you were sort of thinking of the way that this therapy, describing the way the therapy’s portrayed in the show and it sounded a little maybe like that here today. I guess I’m not taking notes but I haven’t said much.
CLIENT: [Laughing] You haven’t said much.
THERAPIST: And where I think also you’re not quite sure what, I think not sure what you want to say. But I’m feeling like there’s something important that I think you’re unclear about.
CLIENT: Yes, I mean I think I thought of it because I feel like well I’m not really going anywhere with this so far on my own. I’m just sort of wandering around. [00:23:09]
THERAPIST: I think the thing about taking notes is reflective of I don’t know some kind of worry that I’m going to be caught up in what you say in some way that cause me to be disengaged from you or something like that.
CLIENT: Yes, I guess worrying that you’re going to sort of withdraw in some way. I find that when I get anxious about how things are going here and what you’re doing and not understanding it, one of the things that I end up doing is thinking about or being interested in the sort of historical roots of this kind of psychology, like where does it come from generally (ph). In some ways that sort of answers that anxiety and in some ways it totally distracts me from it. [Laughing] I can’t really tell whether that’s actually dealing with it or not at all. [00:24:56]
THERAPIST: Do you mean that you think about that sort of scene I guess from the 50s, is the show from the 50s or early 60s?
CLIENT: Early 60s. Yes, or yes, yes. I don’t know. I feel like I [inaudible at 00:25:35] something there to say but it didn’t feel very important to begin with. [Laughs] Sorry, I say that and then it sounds absurd. [00:25:51]
THERAPIST: Well I guess part of what you were getting at was that when I’m quieter or I think it makes you anxious and you worry that I guess about my being more distant or maybe disengaged or something. And that you, one of the ways that you try to deal with that anxiety is by thinking about where I’m coming from. [00:27:03]
CLIENT: Yes to sort of contextualize it. That’s what I do.
THERAPIST: Thinking clearly, this gives me a way to understand why Chad would be sitting across from you 15 or 20 minutes and not Pierre [inaudible at 00:27:31].
CLIENT: Yes. [Laughs] Yes. [Pause] It is a little bit bleak to see people in 1960 having the same f***king discussions about whether psychology is useful as a discipline that they are 50 years later. Give me a f***king break will you. [Laughing] But, you know. [00:29:23]
THERAPIST: I was thinking I think something related which was you were worried about my being quiet. Seems like one part of it where another is that I was thinking about what you were saying about, what’s her name?
CLIENT: Betty?
THERAPIST: Betty? Being defensive of her and all this time really valuing something about what’s going on at the same time which I’m thinking of pretty locally here in that well no I don’t mean you sort of evaluating this in general but there’s maybe you have a sense of there’s something in my being quiet and your talking that’s actually quite beneficial even if it’s also anxious and it’s unclear where you’re going or what this is about yet. [00:30:45]
CLIENT: Yes. Yes, that’s right. A perennial problem for me is thinking it’s okay if I don’t understand why it’s healthy [laughing] and sort of being okay with that. [inaudible at 00:31:31] I feel a little silly about pretty much every, pretty much every depiction of a therapeutic setting or therapy or psychiatry in popular culture or anything I read. I sort of think well why does that make me think about Chad, like me and Josh. What’s going on there? I feel a little silly about that but [00:32:19]
[Pause]
THERAPIST: In the way that it sort of highlights I don’t know sort of how I’m there with you or in your back pocket or whatever? Sort of like they show a scene with therapy on TV and it’s like oh well you know. [00:33:38]
CLIENT: It’s weird because it feels very self-centered. Not everything is actually about me [laughs] but then everything sort of is. Yes. It also feels like I’m sort of so interested in how these scenes reflect on my experience in therapy which is something I’m obviously super anxious about in an ongoing way. But I can’t it keeps me from actually being in the art and that sort of takes, it’s a secondary importance. [00:34:49]
I don’t really know how I feel. In some ways it doesn’t matter. Betty Draper is a fictional character; it doesn’t actually matter if I don’t pay attention to her problems. [Laughing] But I also feel like it sort of does matter. [00:35:08]
THERAPIST: I think it might be a little what you said in the beginning about Don Draper, what he said to her about grief and then you shut the show off because something sort of hit you personally in a way that took you out of the, what you were watching. It just seems like another instance of it.
CLIENT: Yes, which is sort of the point of the part but also, I don’t know.
THERAPIST: Well that seems relevant but I’m not sure why that part of the way it works with art is there’s got to be enough displacement of something, you know? In other words you have to be pretending it’s about somebody else to some extent to be able to get into it in a way. [00:36:19]
CLIENT: Yes. Yes. But it can’t actually be about somebody else because then you’re not interested. [Laughing] I like that.
[Pause]
THERAPIST: I think that a side of you is what makes you anxious about therapy is that it’s more clearly and directly about you. I mean including my attention and thoughts and stuff. [00:38:40]
CLIENT: Yes, but it gets complicated so I feel sort of tentative about talking about things that don’t seem to be about me. But then once I start talking about them I get irritated when you [inaudible at 00:39:01]. [Laughing] It’s also sort of reassuring well just sort of say what I’m thinking about and let Josh deal with it, with what that means. I’m not very good at letting other people deal with the interpretation part. [Laughs] That’s sort of a big deal. [00:39:30]
THERAPIST: I think so.
CLIENT: I think I talked about this in here before but I do find looking back over the scholarships that I’ve written, it’s all just about me. It’s sort of about the other stuff but it’s all just sort of about me. I’m getting to be more comfortable with that. That’s one of the reasons I really like editing because you get to know people. [00:40:41]
THERAPIST: Well I think it’s also partly what makes it difficult or anxious to let somebody else like me likes to have interpreting because to be about me. And, or at least not about you, and sometimes that’s true in ways that hurt a lot. I mean as I guess when you said I forget her name. [00:41:33]
CLIENT: Jamie?
THERAPIST: Yes, that’s it. And her reaction was all about her and I guess I imagine the part of what upset you about her reaction was that you kind of expected that it would be a little more mutual than that.
CLIENT: That’s something that I’m not really conscious of worrying about with you but I worry about it a lot with other people, which makes me feel like it’s probably safe to assume that I don’t worry about it with you. [Laughing] Yes. The same thing is happening with this conversation on my Facebook wall. It was sort of yes. [00:42:31]
THERAPIST: I guess the way that it seems to come out more between you and me is you’re worried when it is about you. In other words [pause] I just remember it like feeling close to me or feeling positively towards me or actually I’d say or think things that are about you, or at least I’m trying to. And sometimes I don’t and that’s upsetting or hurtful or whatever, I mean that’s come up too. But what also seems to come up a lot is I guess your worries about your confidence and the way that makes you feel if I do. That’s not okay; there’s something very wrong with that I think is what it feels like to you. [00:43:48]
CLIENT: Yes. It feels like it has to be a trap or it has to be a it feels like you are inviting me to rely on you for that and then that’s not going to work out well. [00:44:16]
THERAPIST: I see. You’re being set up for something.
CLIENT: Yes. I’m thinking of Admiral Ackbar, it’s a trap.
THERAPIST: Oh, Star Wars.
CLIENT: Franco has a little Admiral Ackbar figurine on his computer.
THERAPIST: I’m just remembering what’s happened in there, which is that -
CLIENT: The context doesn’t matter. I don’t remember the context. [Laughing]
THERAPIST: [inaudible at 00:44:51].
[Laughter]
CLIENT: I actually remember what’s happening there -
THERAPIST: What’s happening is that -
CLIENT: so obviously it can’t matter. [00:45:07]
THERAPIST: Okay, well, the, I think the galactic empire has drawn a disguise in order to attract a -
CLIENT: It doesn’t say though.
THERAPIST: I guess the third one, Return of the Jedi, and I think they’re building a new Death Star and the good guys think that they can -
CLIENT: Oh that it’s not fully operational so they can take it out and it is fully operational.
THERAPIST: Right. They go to the moon where the terrible Ewoks are and they think they can, I feel like a nerd, disable the shield or something like that and then it turns out there were bad guys waiting for them. [00:46:10]
CLIENT: Yes.
THERAPIST: Well we should stop.
CLIENT: Okay. [Laughing] [00:46:26]
END TRANSCRIPT
