TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Tell Chad question mark. I will let you know later today.

CLIENT: Okay. I did schedule an appointment with Dr. Vaughn at 12:15 on Monday also. She's down the street so I'd probably need half an hour on either end to get there and get back.

THERAPIST: Okay, so if we met at 10 it wouldn't be an issue.

CLIENT: It wouldn't be an issue...if we had to change a different time.

(overlapping voices)

So okay, I finally got in contact with Dr. Smith. (inaudible) I think (pause) we're both really scared about this. (pause) He thinks...I said, "Well let's wait until we hear back." He had asked his therapist, if she had any recommendations also because Franco (ph) really liked his therapist.

(overlapping voices) (laughter)

It's a woman. He mentioned her first name yesterday but I don't know who it is. But she hadn't gotten back to him yet so finally it was just like, "Okay, let's do this," because we have to actually do it. So yeah, I'm meeting with her next week also. [00:01:33]

(pause)

Tough day yesterday. (pause) Yeah, bad day in depression camp and with my fall when we got home and then we had games night with Franco which (pause) we have a weekly board game night now (laughter) which I'm like super excited about but also I'm like we're the biggest nerds ever. (laughter)

THERAPIST: The things we talk about stay between us. (chuckle)

CLIENT: I know, I know! (chuckle) When Franco came and visited me in the hospital he was like bringing games and one of these games was called Dominion and it's like a strategy card game but it's a lot like Magic: The Gathering in some ways, although I've never actually played Magic, I just saw the cards. But they had seemed to be all about buying the right decks and you would play your deck against somebody else's decks. So it's all about having the right cards. But this one is much more about you buy more decks to expand what you can do with the game but it's a really interesting game and really fun but we definitely were like totally spread out over the whole table and you've got piles everywhere and it's really complicated. I was just like, "We're the biggest nerds ever." (chuckle) [00:03:12]

But I just...I've lost horribly the last three times I've played cards that I've played with him. Usually I lose but not that badly. I'll win some games. (pause) (sigh) I think the Geodon is slowing me down cognitively because it's not just like not being good at strategy games. That's where it was really clear that I was doing much worse than normal and just not seeing things. I don't feel fuzzy. I feel normal. I just notice myself doing stupid shit and I'm like, "Why did I do that? Why did I say that? Why did I have to ask for this person to repeat this thing four times?" Or I'm just like really clumsy mentally and that's really, really, really scary for me. I'm not...I don't feel like that this morning because I haven't taken any yet this morning. [00:04:27]

THERAPIST: Right, I was going to say yesterday and so far today you don't seem that way but I know you also haven't taken it either day.

CLIENT: Yeah and it's also like a little bit but enough to freak me the hell out. (chuckle) For one thing I don't want to constantly lose games with him that way. I'm not that good of a loser. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Yeah I was thinking maybe you should intersperse with a book club or something.

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckle) (pause) but I don't know. I will talk to Dr. Vaughn about that. (pause) But yeah, that's just really scary for me. (pause) I feel like I have to make a choice between (pause) being depressed and myself or stupid and stable. Because it does work. That's the thing. It is stabilizing my moods. It works less well when I am having a bad day or I am distressed, more that it feels like (pause)...it feels like somebody is just like shutting a very heavy door on my emotions rather than that they're not as bad as they are. [00:05:54]

THERAPIST: I imagine it must feel like a very familiar choice between (pause) always having to give something up to be taken care of.

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah. I told James last night (inaudible) and I'm really glad that Chad (inaudible) because I don't want to feel like I have to do things to be taken care of. I do but I don't want it to be quite that concrete. (chuckle) I do work pretty hard but (pause) I don't know. [00:06:54]

(pause)

Maybe this is (pause)...I feel like I'm just picking on them but this kind of CBT and to some extent DBT mindset of "Do these things. Do this homework. Fill out these charts and be this way. Do this kind of work and then you'll get well." And I'm just really good at homework and that sort of thing but it also (pause) it just stresses me out. (pause) And I don't think I can live like that. (pause) Medicines that work don't come along often for me. Am I just being selfish or stupid if I decide to take less of it or not take it? Because everybody else has to live with me depressed too. It's not just affecting me. [00:08:30]

(pause)

[Fighting with Joanne] (ph) went better yesterday than the day before. (pause) I've talked to her more which is good. (chuckle) Okay, we're fighting about the apartment which is still a thing.

THERAPIST: The old one?

CLIENT: Yeah and Eric (ph) keeps sending me these random text messages that don't make any sense and I feel like when I try to relay them to James then he gets mad at me. We talked enough that I figured out why he was getting mad at me and what I was doing but it feels like I'm not really doing anything. So I said, "James, how could I have brought this up to you in a way that would not make you angry with me?" And he had to think for a long time. (chuckle) I think he feels like I'm not...I'm both asking him for his advice and then not taking it or asking for him to be involved and then not asking for my advice. Wanting to get him involved but he doesn't actually have any control over the situation which is hard for James not to have control over the situation. [00:10:16]

THERAPIST: So he feels like you're setting him up.

CLIENT: Yeah and he feels like I'm avoiding talking about it which I am because he fucking terrifies me! (chuckle) He's like, "I feel like you're avoiding it," and I was like, "Yes, yes I am!" (laughter)

THERAPIST: And what terrifies you is both dealing with the apartment stuff and dealing with James around the apartment stuff?

CLIENT: Yeah, more dealing with James around the apartment stuff.

THERAPIST: The latter, okay.

CLIENT: I get scared. I get so scared.

THERAPIST: Right, like you were saying yesterday about being worried he was going...even though it's not...

CLIENT: It's not a possibility.

THERAPIST: ...a realistic. It makes sense in terms of [if they] (ph) know about you but not in terms of what's likely to actually happen. [00:11:09]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) So, (pause) we worked through it in a way that I actually felt good about it at the end of the conversation. And I think he felt pretty good about it too so that was good and important but I didn't apologize for anything that I didn't think was my fault. So (pause) I guess I'll work on that. I suspect I think that more is my fault than actually is but I can't tell. I just can't. (pause) I thought just like we're both just working so hard and we're both so sad and...

(pause)

THERAPIST: I think...(silence from 00:12:22 to 00:12:48) It's so hard for you and you hate so much how much kind of has to be about you and about the way things are from your point of view. I think it drives you nuts.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I hate allowances having to be made for me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) And in time, of course, you've been having a really, really hard (pause) time and it really does matter that certain times and certain ways it's got to be about what you want or where you're coming from. And I guess if I step back and think about it a little bit more, it wouldn't even have to be that it's because you've been having such a hard time although you have been that there would be certain times (chuckle) or certain ways that it could be a lot about where you're coming from or what matters to you, if that makes sense. [00:14:01]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I feel like when we fight it turns into this situation where it does feel like it has to be about me and I kind of hate that because I get so scared and distressed when we fight, even when I'm not having a hard time. And so I spend two-thirds of my energy trying to (pause)...trying to level the playing field, trying not to make it about that.

THERAPIST: I see, and then we are essentially talking about sort of trauma related stuff really.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't count that. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: I mean it doesn't count as trauma (chuckle) or it doesn't...it's not like PTSD. I don't count it as having PTSD. This is the thing that is really hard for me. I don't count as having any of these things (crying) that actually do make a really big difference.

THERAPIST: Why don't you count? [00:15:20]

CLIENT: Oh, because you know, the trauma in my past is not...it doesn't fit the DSM criteria. I didn't see anybody in danger of dying or death. I wasn't ever in danger of dying or death.

THERAPIST: I have not looked at these criteria lately. I don't that's it. I think it's overwhelming...like overwhelming helplessness and horror.

CLIENT: I just know that I've had at least two people in hospitals be like, "Okay yeah, you don't have PTSD." But they're like, "Have you experienced trauma?" And I'm like, "This stuff happened. Like, I've had [abuse to yelling] (ph) a lot when I was a kid and was neglected." And they're like, "Yeah, you don't have PTSD." (crying) Okay, but this [stuff shouldn't still happen] (ph). (crying)

(pause)

THERAPIST: You're sitting there arguing with your husband who's one of the people, I think, you in general feel the safest with in the whole world.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And I don't know how much he raised his voice or didn't raise his voice.

CLIENT: He doesn't raise his voice.

THERAPIST: He's not a real yeller from what I understand from you.

CLIENT: I think he used to be and he stopped because of me. [00:17:12]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and you know full well in one part of your mind that this is absolutely not going to get physical but at the same time you're spending two-thirds of your energy managing how terrified you are that it will. That seems to me sort of like if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

CLIENT: I know, right? (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Sounds to me kind of like PTSD.

CLIENT: I know! (crying) But people keep telling me that (pause) I'm not (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah, they're wrong.

CLIENT: (crying from 00:17:58 to 00:18:15)

THERAPIST: That counts.

CLIENT: (crying)

THERAPIST: (pause) That's just not how real (ph) people feel in an argument like that. Sure, people get disorganized and regrets or whatever and arguments and fighting and they know one thing in their head but they're feeling something else, but the sort of intensity or conviction with which you are sort of worried for your physical safety is kind of something else.

CLIENT: Yeah, like I said, nobody has ever hit me except in tae kwon do, that doesn't count.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because I knew they were allowed to do it (chuckle) and they were supposed to and it doesn't count. I've never even been injured from tae kwon do. (pause) But one of the reasons why I like martial arts so much is that it allows me to feel in control of my physical safety. [00:19:48]

THERAPIST: How long did you do martial arts? I don't think we've ever really talked about it.

CLIENT: I did it from when I was like 10 to 13, so basically sixth through eighth grade. I got a black belt.

THERAPIST: Rock on!

CLIENT: Yeah, I didn't break the cinder block but I guess that's probably a good idea. They probably shouldn't have let me try to break a cinder block at my age. But I really needed to try anyway. And in college they didn't really have much of an offering for that, for martial arts, in high school. But in college I did other forms of karate for about a year and then stopped because I didn't like the way that the school was being run and at William & Mary I picked back up with tae kwon do for only like six months, not very long. And then I'd like to get back to it. It's a really, really good thing for me. [00:20:50]

THERAPIST: Cool!

CLIENT: Yeah! It's not that I feel like I'm actually any safer when I'm out on the street because I'm totally not because anything martial arts, the way they're taught in most American schools, make you less safe because you think you're more safe. But you have no training at all in actually...you have no realistic training in actual self-defense. The same goes for most of the women in self-defense classes.

But it's this whole environment of ritualized violence that's actually very safe and where the focus is actually on protecting one another and keeping each other safe. So this is actually why I stopped because (pause) people, including the instructor, would get mad at the person they were sparring with and they would try to hurt the other person or they would get sloppy and stop taking care of the other person. And that was allowed. I just thought that was really not okay, the opposite of the point because if you're afraid for your physical safety you actually can't learn to fight well. Like, you just can't, or you can't learn to...you can't work on your form. You can't...you can't do it. Or I couldn't anyway. [00:22:24]

(pause)

So, (pause) yeah it is something that makes me feel safe physically and also helps me feel okay with my own violence and my own (pause) aggression. (pause) Yeah, I don't know where this comes from. Nobody's ever hit me but I'm just so scared and I (pause)...it's actually...I only sort of vaguely understand that other people don't feel like this when they fight. That for most people it's not really, really terrifying to be angry or to have somebody be angry with you. (pause) It's so much. It's just always been that way for me. [00:23:42]

THERAPIST: That does happen sometimes.

(pause)

CLIENT: I mean, clearly. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Right, but I remember it happening to other people as well. I can imagine a few things. (pause) Like you can be really physically scared and intimidated [like you're little] (ph) without actually being hit.

CLIENT: Yeah, my dad is like six feet. More than anything he's a big guy. And he pretty much blows up in your face and he would throw things.

THERAPIST: He's pretty explosive sometimes, yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I think also with throwing things, like I was standing next to the car one time when he was upset and he punched the car next to me, and shit like that. (chuckle) I'm getting really afraid thinking about that.

THERAPIST: Oh, how so? [00:25:00]

CLIENT: It's just...I don't know, some kind of panic response as I do when I describe that. Sorry.

THERAPIST: No, no it's okay! (pause) The other (pause) sort of complicating factor is to do with the projections of your own rage in situations like that for different reasons like (pause) like your dad does sound clearly explosive, and demonstrative, and anger, and kind of unpredictable in it too which is probably important. That said, (pause) for reasons of being mad yourself or feeling really guilty yourself, you could have felt in greater physical danger than you were in some sense. [00:26:37]

CLIENT: I mean, I remember being furious and not having anywhere for that to go. Like, just being really, really angry and not being able to say anything.

THERAPIST: And sometimes a kid, or for that matter somebody who sees the kid (pause) this was not you. I'm just using this to sort of illustrate what I mean, like a parent will have a slightly raised tone of the voice but the kid is so pissed off. He gets really scared because he thinks the parent is really losing it. And there's somebody (inaudible) and that kid was not the parent. I don't think that was you. Like I said, it sounds like your dad was really quite closer than scary but it's often some kind of that mixture of...or it could have been guilt. Like you felt so (inaudible) [well good, I could argue with you] (ph). But you felt so (pause) like you had done something so wrong and bad to get him angry like that that you deserve to be hit. And that could have made you feel like he was about to hit you, something along those lines. [00:28:01]

And then actually (inaudible) I guess some other ways we've looked at things with you that maybe one thing that [I'd add] (ph) this, in addition to experience, is how you actually retreated is feeling you deserve (pause) some kind of beating.

CLIENT: Yeah, I remember both feeling really, really guilty and feeling really, really angry because I couldn't figure out what the fuck I had done to be so in the wrong. But knowing I was in the wrong clearly because if I wasn't in the wrong he wouldn't be angry. So feeling bad about whatever it was I had done but I didn't know. Half the time...or it was like I couldn't tell what he was angry about but I felt like I couldn't have predicted it. [00:29:09]

THERAPIST: Pretty consistent and you often reacted disproportionately.

CLIENT: Yeah, there was one time we were older and goofing around at a bank. I just like being silly. And I thought we were just playing a game like at a bank. And we weren't touching anybody's stuff. We weren't making a whole lot of noise as far as I could tell.

THERAPIST: Being kids, would you say you were being kids?

CLIENT: Yeah, saying that would probably be appropriate. And he just blew up at us as soon as we left and I was just completely (pause) dumbfounded. I didn't know. (pause) But I felt really bad. [00:30:02]

With Bryan, it was like we would both start out mad. Or he would get angry with me and I would be really angry with him because I knew I hadn't done anything or I knew that it he was angry because he was jealous of me. I was like, "What the fuck? You have no reason to be jealous of me, none at all." And I (pause)...he really didn't. (chuckle) I was over the moon for him and he was jealous of me with guys that I hated or...

THERAPIST: I see. It really just didn't make sense.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah! So after we graduated he was always jealous after we graduated high school we went to Beach Week but we went to different Beach Weeks because I went to one with my friends and he went to one with most of other people. And when we came back we had dinner and the first thing he said was like, "So, did you go to Beach Week to try to look for somebody better than me?" And I like got up and left the table and was just furious and went down to the bathroom and (sigh) calmed down and I got back and was like, "Maybe (chuckle) but I'm here so..." But I would yell and he would...or I wouldn't yell but I would stand up for myself and he would just keep yelling until my anger would run out way before he did. And he would just keep yelling until I would just do anything to get him to stop. Like I would apologize for whatever he wanted me to apologize for. (pause) I'd tell him I loved him, which I did. I'd tell him all of the true things and all of the untrue things and he would just keep yelling. (pause) And he'd just keep yelling. [00:32:25]

(pause) There was nothing I could do. It didn't make any sense. But sometimes I could leave but I couldn't leave because that would show him that he was right, I didn't love him! And sometimes...

THERAPIST: Is he kind of paranoid?

CLIENT: He was incredibly paranoid. He just hated himself. He didn't understand why I was dating him. (pause) You know, he's just a very clever, tender, really smart guy but (pause) he just got so ugly. It was like the more affection and reassurance I gave him, the worse he got. Then, a very smart counsel at school introduced me to the concept of enabling and my life was forever changed. (laughter) I was like, "Oh! That's what is going on! He's doing it because I let him! Right!" [00:33:43]

But that was like two years in. (pause) And we stuck around for another year. (pause) I told him, "You can't ever do this to me again," and he didn't for six months and then he did again and I was like, "He's never going to change." I loved him so much. (pause) I don't think I've ever been in love with anybody as much as I was with him. And I know at least part of that comes from the drama, I think, like never being able to be secure makes it more precious, or something like that. Or constantly being challenged both from myself and from him having to come up...remind myself of the reasons that he was precious to me made it more intense. I look back and I'm like what the fuck, I've changed so much.

(silence from 00:35:10 to 00:35:36)

THERAPIST: I think you can also at times be kind of masochistic.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Oh yes!

THERAPIST: And he played right into that where...

CLIENT: It's not a real loving relationship unless I'm getting hurt.

THERAPIST: Something like that, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, the more masochistic part, it's like I devalue myself more because I was putting up with this shit.

THERAPIST: I see. Well and it (pause) didn't put...it saved you from the really most scary situation of (pause)...scary and guilt inducing situation of feeling like the relationship oriented more around your own feelings and wishes. [00:36:38]

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. It definitely was mostly about him.

(pause)

THERAPIST: And with your dad you would do something wrong, even terribly wrong, at any time no matter what you had or hadn't actually done. (pause) Something takes the (pause) spotlight away from...

CLIENT: Like I was psychologically (ph) at fault.

THERAPIST: Which I think is horrible and familiar and predictable and (pause) not selfish feeling.

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah it was funny; I didn't really start looking at patterns of abuse until after we broke up. (pause) But it was always really clear to me that this was as much my doing as his.

(pause)

THERAPIST: And so? I mean, it doesn't seem that way to me but I wasn't there. [00:38:17]

CLIENT: Oh it was just (pause) that this was a situation that I was comfortable in and that (pause) I stuck with him because I was the bad part to where something I needed or something I wanted in somebody. (pause) Eventually I got angry about it; (pause) much angrier at his parents than at him. I think I told you this already but I met with his mom once and sort of described some of the ways that he was treating me and her response was essentially, "But isn't it nice that needs you so much?"

THERAPIST: My God.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's fucked up.

CLIENT: Yeah. That was a fucked up couple. His mom really controlled him. His father really controlled his mom. And he really controlled me. I didn't control anybody. (chuckle)

(silence from 00:39:38 to 00:40:02)

The problem is I'm not very good at (pause)...I tend to zero in on whose fault is something and I'm not very good at telling actually what is. I was thinking if I stopped taking the Geodon even though it works because of the side effects then the depression will be my fault. And I'm pretty sure that's not actually how it works. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: I would agree.

CLIENT: But (pause) just like I'm pretty sure that it wasn't actually my fault that Bryan yelled at me.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: (pause) But it sure feels like it because I let it happen. (pause) You know, because I defended that relationship against all comers. But Gerry (sp) and Ashley were good friends with Bryan but they didn't like the way he was treating me and they told me so. I don't remember the conversation where Gerry (sp) told me that she thought he was bad for me or that he would beat me but I believed that we had it because I asked her once several years later. I was like, "Why didn't you guys say anything?" And she was like, "Well I told you once very clearly and then I figured after that I didn't have the right to say anything else." But I don't remember it. I do remember (inaudible) and I just loved him so much and I'm not going to give him up. [00:41:49]

(pause)

Some may think I broke up with him because I didn't need him anymore for the same reasons (pause) which is kind of (inaudible).

(pause)

THERAPIST: I guess (pause) I kind of have a hard time seeing it that way because (pause) it seems maybe more accurate to say there were reasons that you needed him that kept you putting up with things for so long (chuckle) and then those went away and you could leave.

CLIENT: (laughter) Yeah that makes sense! (chuckle) Yeah. He was also just way less the person that I had fallen in love with than he had been. He was super republican and super into government and talking about fucking politics and pledging a fraternity. Oh God, I hate that part! And I always hated to be around him when he was around other people because he has this (pause) persona that he puts on when he's feeling nervous or afraid that it's just...I just don't like it. When he's feeling nervous or afraid and he's trying to disguise that fact and it's just not him. It's just not honest and I never liked it and he was like that all the time because he was trying to make new friends. He was trying to pledge his fucking fraternity. [00:44:05]

One of the things that's really sad about when we met at our friend's wedding is that he had that persona on for me. You know, I wanted to be like, "Dude, I know better. Just be yourself for once."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I got caught up in this really fantastic person and you dress up in different...

THERAPIST: We can stop.

CLIENT: Have a really good weekend!

THERAPIST: Thanks! Take care, and I'll e-mail you later today about (inaudible)

CLIENT: Okay. [00:44:52]

END TRANSCRIPT