TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Sorry I'm late.

CLIENT: That's okay, really okay. (pause) So it was kind of a tough weekend.

THERAPIST: I just wanted to say, I'm still working out whether this could be our new regular time or a different time but I will figure that out this week. And I'm sorry (inaudible) help.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's fine. This works for me but anytime works for me. I didn't tell them that I could be off on Monday next week so I probably should...so would Monday probably be a better day period? I'm just wondering whether I should tell them that my schedule is permanently changing or just tell them I can't work Monday next week.

THERAPIST: I would just do next week. [00:00:57]

CLIENT: Okay, that works. (pause) Can I borrow a pen?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay, mine is somewhere in the bag but (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Hopefully somewhere in the bag, more specific (chuckle).

(pause)

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So my store manager is quitting. The district manager is too mean to her. It's disappointing because she's very good at her job and I like her a lot. The next person coming in, I haven't met him yet, but he's an external hire which never really bodes well. He doesn't have café experience. He has certain retail experience. (pause) So we'll see. [00:02:00]

(pause)

I had a hard time not hurting myself last night but I did not.

THERAPIST: Good.

(pause)

CLIENT: I've been thinking about my father a lot. I've been thinking about church a lot and those are kind of separate and kind of not separate. I don't really know how to Papa (ph) right now. I talked to him on (inaudible) briefly. I called Mom and talked for a while and then called the house and tried the house number and then Papa's (ph) number and then my other (inaudible). We talked and she told me all her funny stories. I missed them so much and I was so sad last week going home and then she told me about the day and I was like, "Wow, I would have been a wreck!" (chuckle) So it was good that I didn't go home but it was really sad. [00:03:22]

THERAPIST: Sounds like it would (inaudible).

CLIENT: Joanne really doesn't like anybody cooking in her kitchen. She thinks of it as her kitchen but Papa [wouldn't let Joanne near it] (ph) and said, "No this is our kitchen." And to Papa that means his kids get to cook in the kitchen. And also Joanne...if nobody else were to cook, Joanne would feel very put upon because she'd feel like nobody was helping her. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: (inaudible) she got going there.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's a minor thing but it sounds like it was a little bit...the tensions were very present. When she's (ph) cooking, she doesn't really clean up after herself and it's just chaos, complete chaos and you have to just be okay with that. And if you are okay with that it will be fun and you usually end up with something really delicious even if it doesn't look anything like what she set out to make. But it sounds like (pause) I would have been in the middle of that and now there's been a mess. [00:04:39]

(pause)

But I just...I don't know. I don't have (inaudible). (pause) The last time I was in the hospital we talked a little bit about some of the stuff that happened when I was a kid. I said, "You know, it's okay." And I'm not sure that it is actually okay but I don't quite know how to take that back. It doesn't seem fair. (pause) I had a really hard time (pause)...so I'm trying to get more involved at church and trying to make that a community that I can be a part of. But I had no idea what parishioners do. I know what priests do. I don't know what parishioners do. I don't know what my job is. (pause) And I don't feel (pause)...I don't feel like I'm allowed to (pause) ask for anything (ph) or be there in some ways. [00:06:17]

I (sigh)... (inaudible) came and visited me in the hospital, that's one of the priests in my church. And he's kind of the person that if I were in the clergy, I would want to be like him. I really profoundly admire him and so that was a shit show obviously (chuckle) in that I really profoundly admire him so anytime he's nice to me I feel like I'm a horrible person. That is actually (inaudible) even though it doesn't sound like it ought to be. (chuckle)

So he asked me if there was anything he could do and at first I said, "No, I don't think so." (inaudible) you showed up. And then after a little bit I said, "Actually, okay. I have a really hard time asking for help and I have a really, really hard time asking for help from priests, clergy, like asking for spiritual help. So if you could check in on me every once in a while that would be really good." (pause) And now I feel really guilty about saying that, like that's a huge thing to ask of somebody. That's a huge thing to ask of somebody whose job it is to do these things. (pause) And I'm not really clear how this is my father's fault but it sort of feels like it is. (chuckle)

(silence from 00:08:04 to 00:08:25)

THERAPIST: That's what was making me think of a the (inaudible) when you said at the beginning today when you had a hard time not cutting yourself yesterday that you had said last week that you wanted more help with the (pause)...with that.

CLIENT: Did I say that?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think so.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: That this was something that you [had to go to the] (ph) hospital, that is hard for you to talk about when you (pause) cut yourself but that this is (inaudible) bringing to mind?

CLIENT: (inaudible) Thank you.

THERAPIST: The little instinct in you forgot.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Yeah, doesn't surprise me. (chuckle)

(pause)

THERAPIST: (inaudible) ask for help. [00:09:40]

(pause)

CLIENT: So I did (pause)...I have a friend who...I told you about Cody and Kerry (ph) (inaudible). So Cody is really into Magic so I asked him to help me with Magic. (inaudible) slightly true (inaudible) from my arm. (pause) And whenever I want to cut I trace that. There's this passage in numbers where God (inaudible) yet again sent all these snakes to slaughter them and to poison them and then Moses and (inaudible) people and God says, "Okay." So they make a bronze serpent and it's on a staph and when he lifts up the serpent and the people look at the serpent and they're healed. [00:11:01]

THERAPIST: Having been bitten?

CLIENT: Yes. And that's taken often to be one of ten thousand prefigurations (ph) for Christ in theology because that's what people do. They're like, "Okay, we don't know what to do with this? It's probably about Christ." (laughter) And then there's a later passage, I forget where, I think in one of the Samuel chronicles where they (pause) cleansing the temple of all the (inaudible) and the serpent is still there so they get rid of it because this is this other god that they're worshipping. So the theory is that this test in numbers is some way of reconciling different ways of worship. But for me it's healing through transformation, which I think I mentioned last week. [00:12:10]

But also I was just reading that the snake is a symbol of healing through transformation because the (pause) theory was that snakes were immortal.

THERAPIST: Immortal?

CLIENT: Yeah so in Gilgamesh it's a story of Gilgamesh is taking immortality and he finally gets the herbs that would allow him to be immortal and then he goes to swim in a pool and a snake comes up and eats him and runs off. And as he gets out he sheds his skin.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So the idea for me that (pause)...I was thinking, the thinking about it when I want to cut myself isn't very effective. Exerting my will is not very effective. So the idea is to find something that I don't have to do anything other than look at it. It works okay. (pause) Cutting myself is basically Magic anyway. [00:13:35]

THERAPIST: What's the idea about how (pause) that incident in Numbers prefigures Christ?

CLIENT: Oh, I don't quite remember. (chuckle) I don't know, something about...yeah I don't know. That's not very important to me because I don't think any of it (inaudible) when people say prefigures Christ actually prefigures Christ. I like to look into it and see what they are. (pause) But two-thirds of theology is kind of closed book to me. (chuckle) Sorry, it's just kind of iffy in my theology anyway. I don't know. I'm not Christian because I believe in Jesus. That's probably the biggest thing that's gotten in the way of me going to church in the past. (pause) Because I just don't know what to do.

(silence from 00:15:05 to 00:15:26)

Cody is really excited that (inaudible). I was kind of nervous about asking him but he was very willing to do it. He talked about...I sent him a page on non-suicidal self-injury and he said, "Reading this I realize this is something I used to do when I was younger." He used to get...he did and I think to some extent still does have real problems with anger and so he said in terms of things like punching a wall with the intent to injure yourself or getting in fights with the intention of being hurt. He said it was something he did a lot. So that was a good thing too. [00:16:20]

(pause) And it is very often about anger for me. I don't know, I just get so angry and I don't know what to do when I'm angry. (pause) It's not like I can tell somebody about it. (chuckle) (pause) Yesterday I was just upset with myself by the end of the day because I worked all day and then had like two hours of not working and then had to go to church and (inaudible) minister so I had to get there early. And it's like messed up a lot, being in church, I think I was just tired. And a lot of things that probably to an external person would seem like nothing but to me it was like, "Well I did this thing that wasn't exactly the way I wanted to do things." And so it was a disaster! Yeah, same (inaudible) and it's just tiring. [00:17:52]

And they forgot that I was supposed to go home at 2:00 so at 12:08...I kind of set my, "I need to make it till 2:00. I need to make it till 2:00. I need to make it till 2:00." And then five after 2:00 I was still (inaudible). I was like if I don't leave I'm going to start crying in front of everybody and that's going to be horrible. So I had to say, "Guys, I need to get out of here. Somebody else needs to get on register because I have to leave," which I did so that was good. They were very nice about it. I really like the people I work with.

I really like them so they were like, "What was wrong?" and I want to tell them but I know from experience that that's a really bad idea, or it at least could potentially be a really bad idea. (inaudible) [00:18:56]

Four out of five people responded really well and the fifth person responds really badly and those aren't great odds because the responding really badly hurts me so much. (pause) (inaudible) in a whirl, I guess everything happens (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Well (pause) I'm wondering if it was making you a little anxious to sort of (pause) coming and opening up a bit about (inaudible).

CLIENT: (laughter) Yeah that is hard to talk about. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: How come?

CLIENT: Well it's a little silly from some perspectives.

THERAPIST: Apparently possibly from us. (chuckle)

CLIENT: (laughter) Apparently! (chuckle) I mean, to me it seems silly but it's also...

(overlapping voices at 00:20:26)

CLIENT: Yes, exactly. Yes (pause) for much the same reason that it's hard for me to talk to you about my faith. (pause) I don't know whether it will make sense to you and...

THERAPIST: Right, you're nervous (ph) about how people are going to be...

CLIENT: Yeah, and I do. I actually really do know that it will be okay but (pause) also not.

THERAPIST: Sure, I know that if you really didn't have (inaudible). But it's a risk all the same.

(silence from 00:21:24 to 00:21:48)

CLIENT: When I think about it kind of from the outside mostly what I think it's about I'm really desperate. (pause) I hate talks about the gift of desperation. AA (ph). I can say that. When you're desperate He (ph) takes it.

THERAPIST: Well with this thing (ph) my impression is that (pause) I'm a little unsure sort of how much you left out of your description of what's involved.

CLIENT: Oh, a lot! (chuckle) I'd rather not talk more about it at this point. I've talked with Cody a lot. There's a lot of magical paraphernalia. It's...I don't know. [00:23:12]

THERAPIST: Where I was going was is that I imagine that at some level it's not. At others (pause) you believe it and it matters and that (pause) is why it gets to be a little heated at it that's kind of sitting under (ph) your skin.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I was thinking of that, getting it tattooed, and Cody said, "Don't do that, at least not right now," because he said it was a bad idea, if there was any, anything in my mind that believed that it would not work.

THERAPIST: It'd be better to get the tattoo if only 90 percent of you believes it would work and ten percent doesn't?

CLIENT: Basically.

(silence from 00:24:33 to 00:25:33)

THERAPIST: I guess I imagine that (pause) our relationship ends when specifically I think (ph)? Even (inaudible) what you're doing doesn't matter too much to put at risk my saying more about what's involved?

CLIENT: I don't know that there's the...I don't know if it's impossible for me to put it at risk. It matters extraordinarily and so I'm extraordinarily loathe to put it at risk.

THERAPIST: Which is...?

CLIENT: But I don't know...I'm not entirely clear what puts it at risk because talking about it puts it at risk but not talking about it also really does, maybe even more so.

THERAPIST: How so? [00:26:40]

CLIENT: This is a big thing for me and (pause) it starts to kind of distort things if I'm not telling you about it.

THERAPIST: I see.

(pause)

CLIENT: I worry that things are going to be distorted. I'm not very good at (pause)...I'm not perfectly open but that's how people work. (pause) If people were perfectly open then your job wouldn't be any fun. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: (laughter) My job probably wouldn't.

(silence from 00:27:55 to 00:28:20)

CLIENT: But part of it also is that people who believe in God usually don't believe in God anything like the way I believe in God. I don't know very many people who think about God in anything like the way I do, (pause) which means getting more involved in church and talking to people about beliefs and religion is kind of a double edged sword. On the one hand it sometimes brings me closer to people and sometimes it just pushes me farther away.

THERAPIST: What's so different about your belief? [00:29:17]

(pause)

CLIENT: I'm not really sure. (pause) I don't think it's terribly important that I'm the Christian. I think it's terribly important that I be something or that I be with other people and (pause) I take the Bible very, very seriously but that doesn't mean I believe everything it says. I mean, the worst part is I have a hard time respecting people who say they believe everything it says because that means that they're probably just not reading it very carefully because it says a lot of things and a lot of them are contradictory. I don't know why, which is just silly. (chuckle) [00:30:36]

(pause)

I'm starting to kind of wrap my head around some of the kind of larger, big, theological pieces of Christianity like the Trinity and the sacrament and things like that. I'm starting to kind of see how I can get behind those but it's not simple for me and it's not...I kind of have to take a back road. It doesn't seem like...the way when people talk about why they believe something I usually listen and think, "Well I might believe the same thing but I had to find a different way to get there." And I don't...I know some people who (pause) take the same routes as I do. I do, in some things, but not all that many people, (pause) which means I tend to put, I guess, too much pressure on those people to be just like me because it's like, "Oh, somebody who understands me who is like me." And then I worry because I just want to jump on that person and then I'm like, "That's not good. I can't do that." [00:32:26]

THERAPIST: I see. (pause) Are you worried because partly (pause) you're owning up to some things that feel like they had paralleled in our relationship?

CLIENT: That's (inaudible). I guess I'm mostly worried because it sort of sounds to me like what I'm saying is I'm a very (inaudible) (chuckle) and I just don't have very much patience with that, in others or in myself. (chuckle) [00:33:32]

THERAPIST: I was thinking (ph) (chuckle) (inaudible) real differently.

CLIENT: There's a real arrogance to saying I can't follow the same path to believe as other people. And that arrogance is really there for me and I don't like it. But it's just that it's hard. I don't think I would want to be any different than I am but it's not very much fun.

(pause)

THERAPIST: Are there any examples you can describe?

CLIENT: (pause) So (pause) the biggest one is Jesus Christ all of...most of what I've heard people say and most of what I've read just kind of makes me (inaudible)...it's the idea that Jesus dying on the cross (inaudible) all of the sins of humanity from past and into the future and I think that's bullshit. [00:35:28]

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah, and it's so big that I didn't realize that this wasn't what everybody absolutely believed full stock until I was an adult until I was in grad school actually. (pause) I had a [colloquial moment] (ph) like, "Oh good! Other people also find this problematic." I just don't buy it and I think it's kind of dangerous in some ways. I just don't...there's no...it doesn't make sense to me that this one person should be the most important person ever. There's nothing that...

THERAPIST: It just doesn't resonate with you?

CLIENT: Yeah. There's nothing in the gospels that doesn't...that resonates with me more than other really good stories about really good people. The thing that is starting to make it work for me is the idea of God as suffering with humanity and that has really just come through my own suffering. I've been suffering a lot for a long time and thinking about that a lot. [00:37:01]

THERAPIST: Thinking about it (inaudible) as not being sort of separate or removed from human suffering? Like very much in touch with it?

CLIENT: Yeah, that God doesn't tell us why we suffer. It just doesn't happen. But that God suffers with us and that that helps somehow and that makes the idea of Jesus as God and also human, that makes sense to me, or makes it like okay, I can see where this can go to me.

THERAPIST: Like it's not exactly the same as a term in theology that is usually sort of understood but it's sort of related or [if you're feeling down] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah and this is the idea of God as suffering, it's certainly like people talk about it a lot. It's not like I made it up but that didn't make sense to me until I was in so much pain. It didn't make sense to me until recently. (pause) I feel like I've, in the past, gotten through the depression by saying, "Well it will get better someday," and I don't think I can say that anymore. (pause) Maybe it will but I have no (crying)...I have no evidence to make that make sense. So (pause) this is kind of the other way that I can deal with it. But it doesn't make that much sense either but it's all I've got. [00:39:15]

THERAPIST: Do you need to [feel any closer] (ph)?

CLIENT: (pause) And that it doesn't make it much better to say, "Well maybe I'll just suffer forever but God will also suffer with me." I don't know why that should make me feel better, make it...

THERAPIST: You know, it's possible I misunderstand but (pause) the thought of not being so alone or alienated that way seems to me like it could mean something even if it doesn't mean you're suffering less exactly.

CLIENT: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think so. (pause) (sigh) Sorry I just said all of these things and now the panic is hitting (crying).

THERAPIST: You're really getting a backlash.

CLIENT: Yes. It's going to be okay right?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Mostly of terror?

(silence from 00:40:48 to 00:41:09)

(inaudible) going to be okay (inaudible)

CLIENT: Thanks. (pause) That's what I thought about in the hospital (pause) and loads of other things.

(silence from 00:41:28 to 00:41:48)

It feels like I'm choking. (pause) Like it's very easy for me to keep it under control, to keep the panic response down and keep all the sadness down, it just...it feels like I'm choking.

(pause)

THERAPIST: So part of it has been a lot more feelings and a lot more from history and context to what you said or does it immediately happen [then what you said] (ph) and it gets sort of provoked by it?

CLIENT: Maybe? It's not what I'm necessarily thinking about but it's certainly true. I think part of it is that I'm just sad (inaudible). (pause) I'm trying to handle it and...

(pause)

THERAPIST: I can imagine it's sort of like a vulnerability spiral. [00:43:39]

CLIENT: (chuckle) Definitely that!

THERAPIST: Yeah, for sure, where you're so scared to say it and then scared of the backlash and scared to show the backlash and scared to talk about what the backlash involves.

CLIENT: More scared to experience the backlash because it (pause)...I don't know where it will stop.

THERAPIST: I see. You worry how it could get out of hand. More here or when you leave?

CLIENT: Just [in general] (ph). More when I leave I guess. You know, I feel safe here. I have to leave eventually.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause) Where do you go next? [00:44:42]

CLIENT: I have an appointment with Dr. Vaughn at 12:15. So that's going to (inaudible) have some tea (inaudible). I could go home but James will be there and (pause) I like tea. I really like Tea (inaudible) actually. If you ever go there, it's like I guess unless you like tea there's not much reason for you to go there but it's usually quiet and people are really nice and it's just a little, little shack but it's beautiful and smells so good. It's just a nice place to be.

(pause)

Of course (chuckle) every single time I've gone there with James it's been really crowded, and when it's crowded it's no fun because you're just like sitting on each other's laps. And it's especially no fun for James. I deal with crowds and crowded stores better than he does. [Not to say I deal with them] (ph) super well.

THERAPIST: Well we should stop now.

CLIENT: Yeah, thank you. [00:46:08]

END TRANSCRIPT