TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(inaudible conversation at 00:00:12 until 00:00:26)

[Client speaks softly throughout majority of audio]

CLIENT: I don't know how much of that was (inaudible at 00:00:27) talking about it and how much was just I'm just pretty fearful in general. (inaudible at 00:00:40) (pause until 00:00:51) (inaudible) Even when we don't fight I find myself being afraid. (inaudible at 00:01:06) have a cold?

THERAPIST: I don't know yet. (laughing)

CLIENT: (chuckles) Well I hope not. [00:01:12]

THERAPIST: Thank you. (pause at 00:01:13 until 00:01:21)

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause at 00:01:22 until 00:01:32) Yeah it's not exactly that I'm like tiptoeing around him it's more that I'm doing what I normally do mostly more or less but I'm just hyper-alert. Or anxious. (inaudible at 00:01:48) I jump (inaudible). (pause until 00:02:20) (inaudible) yesterday either. (inaudible)

THERAPIST: That's good. [00:02:29]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it would be too hard as long I continue to (inaudible at 00:02:35) important not to.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. Depends on his priority. Although (inaudible at 00:02:50) yesterday I realized how much is (sighs) wanting to stop cutting has very little to do with what I think it's doing for me or to me. (inaudible at 00:03:02) Feeling like I get put in the wrong box because of it. Or (chuckles) I feel like I get put in the wrong box. Who knows if that's actually the case. [00:03:15]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yeah it's more like other people take it really super seriously. (inaudible at 00:03:26) important. (pause at 00:03:27 until 00:03:33)

THERAPIST: You mean other people associate it with borderline personality disorder?

CLIENT :No like (inaudible at 00:03:37). Like the people at the partial program at the hospital.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: They seem to think it's a really big deal. (inaudible at 00:03:52) I think it's a little bit fucked up that I don't think that it's a really big deal. It doesn't occur to me all the time but -. (pause at 00:04:02 until 00:04:27) I guess it's like (inaudible). You don't know how important it is until you try and stop. And then we'll see. [00:04:37]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So far so good. (pause at 00:04:44 until 00:04:52) I talked to my mom on Thursday. (sighs) Thanksgivings are not good holidays for her. I mean holidays are not good days for her. Things get a little rough.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So it was not one of our best times. It was fine but she started using "we" to refer to symptoms that she thinks that both of us have. Again. And I'm sure that that is correct with her and to some extent is correct with me when she talks about it. "We just give too much. We're just givers. We give all. Everything." You know first of all like yes that's a symptom but most of the people who say like when you say, "I just give too much." It's really it's really something you feel pretty good about and aren't ready to let go if that's the way you phrase it. I'm not really sure that I've been giving very much. (chuckles) [00:06:02]

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: I mean like I recognize that impulse and I think it was pretty dominant in me for a long time. I mean (inaudible at 00:06:17) feel like I give too much to my mom. And it's just I don't want her saying we.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:06:28)

CLIENT: She doesn't know what things feel like for me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like chemically we're pretty similar. Otherwise maybe we're (inaudible at 00:06:40). Maybe we're not. But I would like her to be able to distinguish between us. (pause at 00:06:47 until 00:06:54) She thinks (inaudible) break up. [00:06:55]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Oh it was really awkward because James was in the room because it is a studio apartment. (laughs) And she started kind of tiptoeing not very gently around it. And I mean it was very sweet in that she ended with wanting to make it very clear that I was her daughter. So that if James and I broke up she was going to pick me. And that's nice but she started off by saying, "You're never going -

THERAPIST: You okay?

CLIENT: Yeah I just scratched my neck. (inaudible at 00:07:35)

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: "You're never going to work out who you really are when you're with James. Or when you're in a relationship you're going to have to (inaudible at 00:07:47)." And I was just like, "I don't think that's going to happen, Mom. Like no, no. " [00:07:56]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: No. It was just weird. (pause at 00:08:06 until 00:08:14) And now I feel like (pause at 00:08:14 until 00:08:21)-now I'm anxious about telling people that we fight a lot because I feel like people jump to we're going to get divorced. And like, "No! That's not going to happen." I'm not really sure of very much but I'm really sure that James and I are going to be okay.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I'm fairly certain it's going to take a ton of work but we can do that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:08:50 until 00:09:12)

CLIENT: (inaudible) bad. When I talk about my mom. (inaudible at 00:09:18) conversation. In some ways it was a really good conversation. She's one person who doesn't want to ignore the fact that I've been in the hospital and that that's basically all I can think of to talk about right now. She really wants to talk to me about that and (inaudible at 00:09:40) and stories about stuff like that. That's a really good thing. [00:09:46]

It was good for me to be able to talk to her. Actually I think I started talking (inaudible at 00:09:55) because her psychiatrist now is refusing to prescribe (inaudible at 00:10:04) which she had been taking primarily for sleep but also for anxiety. And it's this like this weird thing where she's talking around and around and around and she really doesn't think that she's addicted to it.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I'm kind listening to her and I'm like, "Maybe you might want to think about this." She was contradicting herself when she talks about how often she takes it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And has like hoarded the last few that she has for emergencies. That's not the best behavior to have (inaudible). [00:10:47]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: (laughs) Be careful. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: At the same time I feel like cut the woman some slack. She spent twenty years hopping from one medication to another. It's like this works in some way.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And it's a new doctor.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: He, of course, has not really paid attention to her saying, "No I've tried all of these before and they really don't do anything for me."

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I don't (pause at 00:11:30 until 00:11:35) I told her that (inaudible at 00:11:36) nationwide push to get people off of those more or less. And I don't know that that's true or not but I read one article about it. Or think that was about switching from Xanax to Clonapan. (inaudible at 00:11:52) upset about that. But I just people are just weird about drugs. Prescribers and patients alike are just weird about them. I don't know. I'm getting off the Xanax now. (inaudible at 00:12:13) taper and I'm really glad of that because the nurses some nurses give me the side eye because I take a stimulant for anti-depressant and I take -(inaudible at 00:12:26) help me sleep. [00:12:27]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like that is weird to them. Or there is just like so much addiction around it. And you know (sighs). I guess the thing that is important to me is that there is nothing I can say to influence people's opinions as to whether or not I'm addicted to any particular medication.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because if I say, "No I'm not." Then I'm in denial.

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah. It's like (inaudible at 00:12:58) accusation.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yes. (pause at 00:13:00 until 00:13:07) And then that of course makes me doubt myself. (inaudible at 00:13:11) you go.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:13:13 until 00:13:48)

CLIENT: I just get stuck there. (inaudible at 00:13:50) (pause until 00:14:02) I don't know how to [think clearly] when I'm talking to her. I should've said, "Please don't talk about your symptoms and my symptoms as we because they're not necessarily the same. We don't (inaudible at 00:14:21)". I should've said something. I've said something in the past. (inaudible at 00:14:27) And she's just kind of forgets or something. (inaudible at 00:14:33) I did say something to the effect of, "I really don't think that James and I are going to break up." And you know she backpedaled really fast. [00:14:45] (pause until 00:14:56)

THERAPIST: Um (pause at 00:14:56 until 00:15:04). Isn't it kind of impossible to (inaudible at 00:15:05) that way? Like either in that when she's saying something about you so often she's really saying something about herself, right?

CLIENT: Yeah like eighty percent of the time.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean -

CLIENT: Not all of the time. But three out of five.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:15:27) Yeah. With the symptoms and with James it would seem that way to me.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And mostly that's what she's got. [00:15:41]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it's sort of a mixed bag. You can say something or push back on that like I guess you did on the stuff with James but not with stuff with the symptoms. And she sort of backpedals but then you kind of lose her I think.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She sort of -

CLIENT: She gets really hurt.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. It really hurts her feelings. And she kind of retreats into saying, "Well what I really meant was this."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which is usually something that's still not super okay but less clearly not okay.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And is usually couched in a "I love you so much" thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like what she backpedaled to with James was "Well you're my daughter. And I just really love you."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: "I love James too but you're my daughter and he's not."

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:16:48)

CLIENT: Yeah. And she it's like she's afraid that as soon as I push back she's going to lose me entirely. [00:16:54]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And she doesn't get that the pushing back is an effort not to lose her.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: That when I don't push back that's when she loses me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I'm pretty sure I've told her before that that's how this works but you know. Whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I feel bad.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: About pushing back.

THERAPIST: Part of where I was headed was to say it doesn't sound like either way works very well.

CLIENT: No. No.

THERAPIST: And I guess I mention that in part because I think you often have the idea that if you handle the situation correctly or in some certain way it will work out better. [00:17:58]

CLIENT: Yeah it's hard for me to recognize that I'm actually helpless to change the situation for the better.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:18:16) Even when I do recognize it I just don't want to talk to her. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I and at least part of the problem is that she just doesn't know me very well.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And so she doesn't have anything to supply other than herself. But it's just really hard to pick up the phone. It's really hard to answer her when she calls.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Because it's like, what are we going to get today? You know? Is this just going to be like mildly uncomfortable or is it going to really hurt me? [00:18:59]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:18:59 until 00:19:07)

CLIENT: And there is so much that is good there also that I don't want to lose sight of. But I do lose sight of it. (pause at 00:19:17 until 00:19:36) Yeah she was talking about I said, "So how are you doing?" And she kind of went to say, "Oh I'm fine." But before she got (inaudible at 00:19:43) I said, "Thanksgiving is really not very much fun." She was like, "Yeah it's really not." [00:19:49]

And said, "Either I stay home and think why does everyone have somebody to be with but me or I go have dinner with my family. And that's a shit show." I don't think she said "shit show" but that's what she meant. And she's right. She's in a tight spot. Both choices are bad. (pause at 00:20:18 until 00:20:31) It's really unclear to me how (inaudible) the extent to which she's putting me in the same position. (inaudible at 00:20:39) not good choice.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause at 00:20:40 until 00:20:50)

CLIENT: And either way I don't feel good about myself. I hate myself for being so passive. Or I hate myself for hurting her feelings. [00:20:58]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:20:59 until 00:21:14) I imagine at another level you're also really sad and really frustrated at her limitations and the way those limit your relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause at 00:21:44 until 00:21:52)

THERAPIST: I know that I think that you often to tend to react to that by feeling you should do something. Should have done something different. And therefore hate yourself for the effects of what you've done. [00:22:06]

CLIENT: Yeah. But I wish that she were different.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But she is who she is. You know?

THERAPIST: I guess I think painful as it is, that your like self-blame and self-hatred there protects you from feelings about what you're missing with her.

CLIENT: Mm. (inaudible at 00:22:50) It's gotta be doing something, right?

THERAPIST: I suppose.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know what I'm missing. [00:23:03]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Like I'm reading (inaudible at 00:23:12) memoir. It's called Wild by an author I like. It's talking about her mother who died when she was twenty-one or twenty-two. (inaudible at 00:23:29) envy her. I don't know what mothers are supposed to be like or do. (pause at 00:23:42 until 00:23:52) Yeah. I think people use people talk about mothers symbolically. [00:24:01]

Kind of talk about unconditional love and (inaudible at 00:24:06) taking care of children or whatever. Even to talk about tension between mothers and children when the children are teenagers. And it's not just that like that all that whole discussion just leaves me cold it's that when I heard the words "unconditional love" I just bristle because that doesn't -. It's like all the things that mothers are supposed to be or that parents are supposed to be it's not just that I don't like that I don't have them it's that I doubt that they exist. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: I see. (pause at 00:24:50 until 00:25:00) And so it kind of infuriates you the way people put so much stock in that? [00:25:09]

CLIENT: I guess so. Yeah. Or the phrases feel like empty rhetoric. You know like when people talk about freedom. (inaudible at 00:25:30) what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything. (pause at 00:25:33 until 00:25:50)

THERAPIST: I see. So there is something also I mean it's a little more obvious to me than political (inaudible at 00:25:56). I can see how it's both. There is willful deception. [00:26:02]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Of people (inaudible at 00:26:10) power.

CLIENT: Maybe not willful but there is certainly deception.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. My mom says that she loves me more than anything but that doesn't mean anything.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: She doesn't it's not just that she doesn't know who I am. She's not willing to see me.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: She's not willing for me to be anybody other than this kind of shadow self for her. [00:26:50]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And yeah. (pause at 00:26:58 until 00:27:14) So I mistrust other people when they say they love me. I don't know what that means. I know it means something. I know what it means most of the time but it's just a question. (pause at 00:27:35 until 00:27:42) It's not that mom is lying it's that she doesn't know that she's not telling the truth. [00:27:49]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: She doesn't know that there is a me to know. (pause at 00:27:57 until 00:28:20) And I think (inaudible). Because it's very hard to sustain that kind of anger. Or to know what to do with it. (pause at 00:28:37 until 00:29:35) I don't know (inaudible). It scares me. [00:29:39]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (inaudible at00:29:43) know what to do.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. I suspect that everything will work out. That I'll be fine. But (inaudible at 00:30:00) actually (inaudible at 00:30:04).

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:30:06 until 00:30:19) You're really worried about how [you'll deal with] them?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm worried I'll just be cold. [00:30:27]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:30:34) And I won't be able to do it. I'm really worried I'll just continue to be so depressed that I can't take care of other people.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause at 00:30:54 until 00:31:10)

CLIENT: I've got some time but I don't have all the time.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:31:13 until 00:31:29) It's interesting. When you said you're worried you'll be cold it sort of struck me and made me wonder if among other things clearlyyou anticipate or you worry that you'll resent them. [00:31:51]

CLIENT: Mm. Yes. Kids need a lot. (pause at 00:31:58 until 00:32:08)

THERAPIST: Maybe also a lot that you (inaudible at 00:32:10)?

CLIENT: Mm. No that doesn't worry me. I can see that happening certainly. You don't know how good you have it. That sort of bullshit. But (pause at 00:32:27 until 00:32:39)

THERAPIST: But it's more how much they need?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause at 00:32:44 until 00:33:21) I do resent my friends that are good parents. I resent (inaudible). [00:33:24]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:33:25 until 00:33:31)

CLIENT: (inaudible) parents are really good.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause at 00:33:35 until 00:33:53)

CLIENT: But I mean you know everybody ends up having to wade through shit eventually. So (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: It doesn't make that much sense.

THERAPIST: Well what do you mean?

CLIENT: Just everybody's life is hard.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I don't think everybody's life is as hard as mine but I also think a lot of people's lives are harder than mine. [00:34:20]

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause at 00:34:20 until 00:34:48)

CLIENT: I resent (inaudible) sometimes. Did I tell him he wants to live on a boat?

THERAPIST: You mentioned that. (inaudible at 00:34:55)

CLIENT: Yes. He is he's going to graduate from college and sell the mustang. 1965 Mustang convertible. It was a wedding gift to my parents but it's been in a more or less undriveable, beat up state for most of my life. And Jason and my dad fixed it up a few years ago. But it hasn't been driven. [00:35:22]

THERAPIST: Oh he doesn't drive it?

CLIENT: No well I think he might now. (inaudible at 00:35:27) was driving it for awhile. She said she got a lot of (inaudible at 00:35:31).

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Cute girl in a mustang? Like yeah. So he has to sell the boat. Or sell the Mustang. And buy a sailboat and live on it. Which oh Jason. James was like, "Why would he want to do that?" And I was like, "Are you seriously asking that question?" (laughter) "How is it not perfectly obvious? Because he could live on a boat." (laughing) But at the same time I was thinking about how hard it's been for both (inaudible at 00:36:18) and I to find jobs that use our skills at all. And sort of wish I could he's just so fearless. [00:36:42]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's like it doesn't occur to him that life is not going to be gentle with him. (pause at 00:36:50 until 00:36:56) I resent that. I don't think I was ever like that. (pause at 00:37:02 until 00:37:16) At the same time I wouldn't take it away from him. I didn't tell him that I thought it was a terrible, terrible idea because I mean I decided not to he'd already told me he'd quit his teaching certification program. If he hadn't already quit I would've tried to convince him not to. But yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: What do you do? Except say, "Be safe." [00:37:42]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And then (inaudible at 00:37:46). I mean statistically he's probably safer on a boat than he is in college honestly. (laughter) Because he's a very good sailor. He sailed in college. He's on the varsity team. But he's a sailor, which means that he drinks a lot and parties a lot.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:38:11) do.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I don't know. I just it feels like I don't get to make those kinds of decisions. Or actually no that's not quite true. It feels like I did make those decisions and I paid dearly for them. I decided not to take math my senior year of high school which is one of the reasons I didn't get into an (inaudible at 00:38:48). I decided not to take math in college. I decided to major in religious studies and English. I decided to be an academic. And that's not worked out so well for me so far. (pause at 00:39:01 until 00:39:11) But what do you do? [00:39:14]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) so like you paid a very big price when you made choices like those to do things you wanted to do or things the way you wanted to do them?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause at 00:39:27 until 00:39:41)

THERAPIST: [That's made you pretty wary] I guess.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In a way that Jason isn't.

CLIENT: No. Things just kind of work out for him. And it might. I hope it does. But I wish that I were making decisions based on what I most wanted rather than what I felt was going to hurt least. Instead. (pause at 00:40:18 until 00:40:59) I feel like (inaudible) a lot more fun than I am. I wish (inaudible at 00:41:10). I don't know how (inaudible) does it. I've just had a really rough time the last few. (pause at 00:41:21 until 00:41:37) Yeah. Sometimes (inaudible) lonely. (pause at 00:41:44 until 00:42:13) (inaudible) (pause at 00:42:17 until 00:42:40) (crying) I have to go to work. Not right after this. But in a couple hours. [00:42:45]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Really don't want to.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I really don't want to. So (pause at 00:42:54 until 00:43:23) Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I never thought things were going to be easy but I just did not think they were going to be this hard.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (crying) (pause at 00:43:38 until 00:43:59)

THERAPIST: Well (inaudible at 00:43:59) talking of like a way so much of it has like your decisions or consequences. What's happened and how you feel. All kind of rests on your shoulders. Like that you don't in that sense have a sense of being looked out for, taken care of. [00:44:27]

CLIENT: No. No not really. I don't know that (inaudible at 00:44:44). It didn't occur to me that somebody should be. You know? I don't feel like I should be. I am in some ways you know. But -

THERAPIST: We need to stop. (inaudible at 00:45:06)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:45:09) [00:45:17] [end of audio]

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