TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Thanks for talking (inaudible at 00:00:02).

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It helped actually.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:00:08) for awhile. (inaudible) (pause at 00:00:12 until 00:00:19) Yeah still not looking forward to today but what do you do? (pause at 00:00:23 until 00:00:42) (inaudible) I'd be okay with going to work if I weren't just tired. (inaudible at 00:00:57) last day. (inaudible) about how I was anxious about the weekend. And (inaudible at 00:01:06). May not actually be true but (inaudible) (pause at 00:01:33 until 00:01:51) (inaudible) I can't tell whether that is whether I am afraid or whether James is afraid and that is communicating itself to me. [00:02:07]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause at 00:02:13 until 00:02:24) He said he was afraid that we'd get in there and I would be really angry at him about something that I hadn't told him about. And I said, "Well if it's something I haven't told you about then it's not something I'm really aware of."

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:02:47) can get.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:02:48 until 00:03:15)

CLIENT: I was going to tell you today that I was thinking about killing myself yesterday. (inaudible) yesterday. [00:03:21]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Much more than usual? I mean -

CLIENT: Well more than I have been since I got out of the hospital.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Not more than usual.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:03:35) (sighs) (inaudible) clear that I need (inaudible at 00:03:50). (inaudible at 00:03:59) I forget about it sometimes because it doesn't seem that important all the time. Or it's not or I just don't really want to talk about it. And I tend to have the idea that "Well if it's not a crisis then it's not that important to talk about." I also tend to have the idea that I know what is a crisis and what isn't. (inaudible at 00:04:31) not maybe actually that true. (chuckles) [00:04:36]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So. I was really when I talked to Dr. Vaughn she said that there had been some miscommunication between her and (inaudible at 00:04:50). Because he had told me that she was very, very surprised to hear that I was in the hospital. And wasn't expecting it. And she said, "Oh no. No no."

THERAPIST: Okay. (chuckles)

CLIENT: "That wasn't surprising at all." And I said, "Okay. Good." There's not some huge communication barrier here that I'm aware of.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause at 00:05:11 until 00:05:37) Maybe there is (inaudible at 00:05:37) want to tell me about suicidal thoughts. [00:05:44]

CLIENT: Yeah. Probably. I mean that's certainly a familiar pattern to me. It feels like I just shouldn't bother or it feels like I don't really want to talk about it when it's actually going on inside. I'm just reluctant to tell you some things.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:06:07 until 00:06:15)

CLIENT: I don't know why that is. (pause at 00:06:16 until 00:06:27)

THERAPIST: The first thing that comes to my mind is that it's a way of protecting both of us from my not being able to fix it. [00:06:34]

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: I'm not sure. (pause at 00:06:37 until 00:06:43) Or (inaudible) protecting both of us disappointment and frustration.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That I can't fix it.

CLIENT: I was thinking of that in terms of not wanting to tell you about hurting myself.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: That I know it is disappointing that you can't fix it.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But the disappointment is actually much, much less acute than talking about being disappointed. Like that's the part that I really mind. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (laughs) That makes sense.

CLIENT: The disappointment is real. It's there. But it's not that big of a deal. It's just talking it about it is really hard. [00:07:28]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So maybe you knowing about my being disappointed is something I don't like.

THERAPIST: I see. (pause at 00:07:34 until 00:08:00) I might get hurt or mad at you for that? (pause at 00:08:05 until 00:08:10)

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause at 00:08:15 until 00:08:20) I don't usually feel like I'm afraid that you'll get mad at me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like I say I'm afraid of (inaudible). [00:08:28]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:08:29 until 00:08:46) Do you (inaudible)? I don't mean forever but for the moment? (pause at 00:08:52 until 00:09:02)

CLIENT: Maybe. I don't worry about that so much with you.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I mean (inaudible at 00:09:10) reaction to Dr. (inaudible at 00:09:13) it's clearly something I'm worried about.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Clearly something is there.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:09:25) your mom as well? [00:09:26]

CLIENT: (inaudible) (pause at 00:09:29 until 00:09:37) Yeah she knows (inaudible). (sighs) (inaudible at 00:09:44) (pause until 00:10:04) I think part of the stress of yesterday was that I came home and I just could barely stand up. I was so tired. James had made dinner. And he did laundry. Basically he just really took care of me. [00:10:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then Amanda and Jason sent me a care package, which is really lovely. They made cookies and muffin cups. So they're like giant chocolate chip cookies and scones. And a kind of pumpkin loaf thing.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So it was clearly something that they had gotten for me. And burned me a (inaudible at 00:10:55) CD and stuff like that. And also just like picked up stuff from the living room and put it in the box. So there is like a little electric car that stopped working like 5 years ago that we used to play with. There's a whistle. I don't know why. And it was just a really nice thing. Amanda sent me a dress it was clear that she bought the dress for her and it didn't fit her so she was sending it to me. (laughter) It didn't fit me either but I can alter it I think. [00:11:30]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It was just a really nice thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I just felt bad about myself. Trying to do the thing where I interrogate why I feel these ways. And I don't like having to be taken care of like this. And I don't like I don't know. Maybe it's that I feel really helpless. I think. If James hadn't made me dinner I don't know what I would have eaten for dinner. (pause at 00:12:29 until 00:12:40) And I don't like being the center attention. I don't like it being about me more than (inaudible at 00:12:52) especially. Actually no. I don't like it being about me when it's like I've done something good either. [00:12:58]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (inaudible)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:13:04) I don't. Because at the same time I really want it to be about me in some ways. One of the reasons that I want to go to couples counseling is because I feel like I can't talk about anything but myself and I want to be taking care of James.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And (pause at 00:13:27 until 00:13:35). So. (inaudible) (pause at 00:13:35 until 00:13:49) But good practice. The whole identifying emotions and figuring out what they're doing for me. [00:13:56]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:13:59 until 00:14:06)

CLIENT: I'm working on doing that. (inaudible at 00:14:07) Keep thinking that if I could just work hard enough. (pause at 00:14:18 until 00:14:33)

THERAPIST: To what extent are those sorts of fantasies about just working hard enough or like not having it be about you or sort of being in a kind of (inaudible at 00:15:06) like about things your mother expects from you? Or sees you as being? [00:15:18]

CLIENT: Mm. Probably to an immense extent. But yeah. Also my father.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:15:28 until 00:15:37)

CLIENT: I got in trouble for being whiny a lot. For whining. For wanting it to be about me. Yeah. I think I was trained pretty effectively that it wasn't okay for me to need to be taken care of. For me to need somebody to make dinner for me. [00:16:09]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:16:11)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And partly though it was because I didn't really like things that were for dinner partly. Because it wouldn't always be dinner when I was hungry. So if I was hungry I had to make the food.

THERAPIST: Yep. (pause at 00:16:29 until 00:16:48)

CLIENT: And you know. (pause at 00:16:48 until 00:17:04) (sighs) In some ways when I was a kid that relationship really worked because she would give me everything. And then what she wanted was for me to listen to her about everything. And be the audience. It feels like. I don't know how much of it is me just being older and bitter but I remember her talking a lot about the guys that she was dating or her (inaudible at 00:17:43) at work. Or the stuff she was doing. And I don't remember telling her a lot about what was going on in my life. [00:17:50]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I remember a couple of conversations very specifically in which I talked about being bullied and she was very sympathetic. And essentially was like "Those people are assholes! And you'll grow up and be awesome. And they'll grow up and probably still be assholes."

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Which was a good thing for me to hear at the time.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know that's entirely true. But I yeah. I mostly remember being her audience. (pause at 00:18:38 until 00:18:46) And I never really asked for things because I didn't want people to have to tell me no.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So. (inaudible at 00:18:58) asked for the things she wanted (inaudible at 00:19:01). I just assumed I couldn't have it. (pause at 00:19:04 until 00:19:17) But so I wouldn't you know when I was real young I think I wouldn't ask for other things I wanted. If I was hungry I would just fix some food. (pause at 00:19:37 until 00:20:09) I don't know (inaudible). Probably a lot. [00:20:12]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause at 00:20:13 until 00:20:32)

CLIENT: I would get sick and like when I would get the flu or have a cold or whatever -. I never really took any medicine. I never really (inaudible at 00:20:51). I can remember vividly trying to make it to the bathroom to throw up. Which I only mention because when I was sick at James's house his Mom brought me a bucket and some ginger ale. And all of these things. And "Oh yeah! You can do that for people! They don't have to walk all the way to the bathroom all the time." (chuckles) Of course I still did walk all the way to the bathroom. Like (inaudible at 00:21:33) throw up in the bucket. (chuckles) [00:21:34]

THERAPIST: Right. You had another idea of how things could be.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know how much I'm being fair to my parents. I don't. And I worry about that. (inaudible at 00:21:56) It feels mostly like they just wouldn't notice.

THERAPIST: Well this is what started this is what happens when things start to be about you. You start to step back from them. You start to feel like you're not being fair. In other words you're kind of like the version of the story that you have today. But I think as that starts to feel more about you, you tend to feel anxious, guilty, worried you're taking up too much space in some way. I think. [00:22:54]

CLIENT: Yes. I immediately move to trying to reconstruct how things would've been for my parents.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Because my point is this is how that's happening in here as you're telling the story. (inaudible at 00:23:16) instant.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Of the sort of thing you're talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah. There was one time it was New Year's Eve. The year after my parents split up. It was the first apartment she lived in after they split up. And I think she was there for like two years. So I was seven or eight. And I really wanted to stay up until midnight because that's what you do when you're seven. You want to stay up until midnight because midnight is so far away! [00:23:55]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And we were watching like X-Files or something and I fell asleep. And when I woke up I woke up in the middle of the night. It was like after midnight and everybody else had gone to bed. And I was just like soooo upset. I was crying. And I called for mom. And I don't know what was going on with her. I imagine she must have been crying too but she yelled at me. And that's the only time she's ever yelled at me that I remember. And she just said, "Stop it! Go to sleep!" And she didn't come in my room. (pause at 00:24:43 until 00:24:51) It's like the only time I remember asking her for something. [00:24:55]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: That wasn't pretty specific and easy to do. (inaudible at 00:25:06) easy to do. Seems like it was not.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (inaudible at 00:25:16)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:25:21)

CLIENT: Yeah. I was so hurt. I don't know why. I was just crushed. I was just so upset that they hadn't woken me up before the ball dropped. (pause at 00:25:53 until 00:26:24) Did I tell you about -.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:26:24]

CLIENT: Sorry.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:26:26) It's (inaudible) I think is true. What keeps going through my head is that she dropped the ball.

CLIENT: (chuckles) (inaudible at 00:26:40) (laughing) Yeah. Yeah. Did I tell you about going to Newfoundland the year after my parents separated?

THERAPIST: You told me about (inaudible at 00:27:04) Newfoundland . I don't remember.

CLIENT: Well this was the year after they separated. We went with a big group of youth group people. I think some youth group kids and some just adults.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So this big group of people. And the island that we usually camped on nobody was there. And I think the reason I remember the story is it's a story that my dad used to tell a lot about me. And I hated that he told it. I hated it. [00:27:34]

THERAPIST: One more thing (inaudible at 00:27:37) drop the ball.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. (inaudible at 00:27:41)

THERAPIST: So I was going to say the reason I mention this is not so much to be funny. Although it was sort of funny. But because it seems plausible to me that sometimes things can work linguistically that way. Like with (inaudible at 00:28:09) or puns or with plays on words in dreams. Or fantasies where sometimes the symbolism or the reason something takes on the significance that it does is because of the play on words in the way the language works. [00:28:27]

CLIENT: Well that makes sense to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (laughs) (inaudible at 00:28:31)

THERAPIST: And so (inaudible at 00:28:36). I wonder if that was part of it. If you're old enough to know what dropping the ball meant and if that related it's not to hard to imagine in it's own right (inaudible at 00:28:53 excited about what you wanted to do. You needed their help but you feel like it was too much to ask . But I guess I wonder if there is also this linguistic connection.

CLIENT: Mm. I don't think there was one then. There might have been one later.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It's not something I've thought about before. (inaudible at 00:29:13)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Of course I'm wondering if this relates to a kind of linguistic thing that even at seven was probably a phrase that you knew. [00:29:29]

CLIENT: I don't know. It doesn't feel like it.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But realizing she's not coming was the big thing.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like I thought she was going to come and then she didn't come. (inaudible at 00:29:45)

THERAPIST: Both in terms of keeping you up and (inaudible at 00:29:49).

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause at 00:29:50 until 00:30:01) Yeah I thought I could ask for that and I couldn't.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Anyway so.

THERAPIST: Sorry yeah there was a story.

CLIENT: So I'm going to Newfoundland.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:30:15) your dad tells the story.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's a story that my dad tells.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And he tells it differently than I remember it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And the way he tells it is we're going to Newfoundland. The port or the bay that we put in at is about a couple hour boat ride from the place where we camp usually. Or used to camp every year. And every year we camped there. So it's a long trip. And when we got out there we found out that we found that other people were staying on the island that we usually camped at. And that was first time that had ever happened. And so it was like a disaster. [00:30:52]

So we went to like a nearby island that was screened so we couldn't see them. And I think they sent somebody over to talk to them and figure out how long they were going to stay. And it turned out those people were going to leave the next day. And so we had a meeting with everybody and said, "Well do we want to wait here and stay here or go off exploring?" And my dad kind of said he really had always sort of been thinking about going to the further outreaches. More remote places in the bay that he hadn't really spent much time in. (inaudible at 00:31:34) fishing was good. Basically have an adventure. So that was what he felt he wanted to do. (inaudible at 00:31:42) wanted to do it too.

And the way he said it is that I stood up and I said, "You know there have been a lot of things that have changed in my life this year. I really would like something to stay the same." And he said nobody was going to argue after that. Like (inaudible at 00:31:58)

And I hate it when he tells this story because what I remember is me I don't remember it that differently. But my emotions are totally different. I'm sure I did not say it as like eloquently as my dad tells it. And what it felt like was I used the fact that my parents were getting divorced to manipulate everybody into doing something that I wanted and they didn't want. And so we did stay. And I just felt really, really guilty about it. And then (inaudible at 00:32:48) kept telling the story about and he was really like-. I think this is a story he tells because he's proud of me. [00:32:54]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He's like trying to brag on how I can stand up for myself. And ask for what I need. Or that I'm articulate. Or something.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:33:16) reflective.

CLIENT: Maybe. Yeah. (inaudible at 00:33:25) feel so guilty. I got what I wanted because I was in pain. That's not a good reason. You know if my parents hadn't been getting divorced it wouldn't have mattered what I wanted. You know? (inaudible at 00:33:55)

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. You mean in that sense you felt like you knew you had to play that card to (inaudible). [00:34:04]

CLIENT: Yeah. Basically. Or even if I didn't know that I had to play that card I was playing that card.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. I want to make sure that I'm clear that you're not upset exactly about his reasons for telling it. You're upset because sort of the theme you find in it is very different. And hurtful to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (pause at 00:34:47 until 00:34:56) Most of the stories he tells about me I don't like that much. Stories they tell to talk about how I'm really smart or whatever. [00:35:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well the first place they're stories about you.

CLIENT: (chuckles) That's true. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think what's all over everything (inaudible at 00:35:21).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:35:28) taking care of you last night. Not wanting to tell me about being suicidal I think.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: To the stuff you're describing (inaudible at 00:35:43) here.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know when James and I got married the toast that he made was and the toasts were kind of rough for me in general. [00:35:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But the one he made he read out loud a story that I'd written when I was in fifth grade. And it was just excruciating. I almost started crying. Like legitimately crying not happy crying.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like this is suffering crying.

CLIENT: Yeah. It had been like this great day. And it was really joyful. And it was so lovely but I guess I just really don't like hearing my writing out loud. Unless I think it's really very good. And it doesn't matter that I wrote when I was in fifth grade. It's still not my best writing and so I don't want it attached to me. (chuckles) Yeah. This was a story that I really liked while I was writing it but it was basically eighty percent ripped off of a novel that I really liked at the time. And so that was fine. It's how kids write. But you know I kind of talked to Amanda about it later. (inaudible at 00:37:13) "I think he was just really proud of you. And that was a pretty incredible story for a fifth grader to have written." And why can't I be happy about that? [00:37:32] (pause until 00:37:49)

THERAPIST: One possibility is that maybe you always feel like you're ripping off your mom. (inaudible at 00:38:10)

CLIENT: How do you mean? Like I'm distracting attention from where it ought to be?

THERAPIST: Something like that. In a way that's hurtful. (inaudible at 00:38:23)

CLIENT: Oh! Do you mean like I'm doing what she does? Or like -

THERAPIST: You're doing it to her.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Like when your father is paying attention to you that way you might as well be stabbing her.

CLIENT: I'm going to need to (inaudible). [00:38:45]

THERAPIST: Sure. Yeah. I'm kind of speculating.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause at 00:38:58 until 00:39:19) Yeah. It feels like she needs it so much more than I do. (pause at 00:39:21 until 00:39:46) Yeah. I hate when she brags on me but for totally different reasons. You know? I hate that because the things that she says about are really just things she's saying about herself. (pause at 00:39:58 until 00:40:52) I don't know. [00:40:52]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:40:59) (pause at 00:41:01 until 00:41:25) I guess the thing about writing is I can be proud of my writing as long nobody really knows it's mine.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Or that I wrote it. As long as people like it for itself. (inaudible at 00:41:36)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Once it starts to reflect on you that's kind of a problem? [00:41:41]

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. Yeah. (pause at 00:41:44 until 00:42:10) (inaudible)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:42:13)?

CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:42:15) I like to make things for people but I don't want people to like them because I made them. I want people to like them because they're pretty.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) scarf? [00:42:32]

CLIENT: It is about (inaudible at 00:42:34). Yeah. (chuckles) Oh.

THERAPIST: As long as we're clear.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We should stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: You're welcome. See you on Friday.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:42:55] [end of audio]

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