TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: So, the guy that was here earlier, who just left, is in my department.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: You know, I'm sorry. Actually, to tell you the truth, it occurred to me, as I was sitting with him, I remember a bunch of months ago when you mentioned running in to somebody and said a couple of things about him that made me think I might know him.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.
THERAPIST: So, anyway.
CLIENT: It's okay. He's a nice guy.
THERAPIST: I'm sorry if that was .
CLIENT: That's okay.
THERAPIST: Awkward.
CLIENT: It was a little awkward, but not more than the rest of my life.
THERAPIST: Alright.
CLIENT: It's okay. I mean it's the fact I haven't seen him, so.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: It's fine.
THERAPIST: I mentioned that I did talk with Dr. Smith and I also have a message from her after you saw her today.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: And, she said that James said, I'm just sort of reporting what I heard from her, James said the current system when you're really having trouble isn't working so well for him. Something like that.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:01:20]
THERAPIST: And, that the two of you were looking for ideas for alternative plans.
CLIENT: Yeah. That's about right.
THERAPIST: To your sort of like calling me and then dealing with it together.
CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I think James is concerned mostly about like when I call you and then hang up and I'm still doing really badly. You know, what to do there.
THERAPIST: Yeah. My impression is that calling me can take the edge off of it sometimes.
CLIENT: Yeah. It helps sometimes.
THERAPIST: But, that doesn't mean you're not still really having a really hard time or (inaudible at 00:02:07).
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I'm happy to talk about like plans and things like that whatever, if you want, but I mostly just wanted to let you know that she had said that.
CLIENT: Okay. I mean, I would like to talk about plans.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Yeah. And, right now or later at some point.
THERAPIST: It's up to you.
CLIENT: Yeah, can we talk about it just to like, I don't know, be done with it? So, so, as far as James and I got today after meeting with Dr. Smith and talking and then we talked afterwards. As far as we got was that James's pretty okay keeping an eye on me for like an evening. Which evening is when it usually gets really bad. And, so, you know, hopefully then the next day I get up and I get up and am kind of back to stable again. When I get up and I'm not back to stable again, I don't know what to do then. I guess call you again? [00:03:40]
I feel like I'm trying to, I'm the only person who is meeting with everybody, so I'm trying to like, I don't know, accurately carry one conversation in to the next and I'm not doing a very good job of it and I find it hard, and...
THERAPIST: Yeah. I imagine it feels quite burdensome. [00:04:40]
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I'm not doing it right and I feel like James really wants to know everything or and he wants to have some kind of handle on everything that's being talked about and I'm not good at that. Where I'm not able to tell him all of that. Like, we talk about it for a while and then I just, I get tired of talking and so eventually I'm just able to create anything to just get us to stop talking. That's not helpful. But, I, you know, it's worse. It's like I'm convincing myself I'm okay with everything in order to get us to stop talking.
THERAPIST: I see. Yeah.
CLIENT: I'm not like consciously being deceptive. I just... [00:05:55]
THERAPIST: Yeah. You're just deceiving yourself as well. Personally, others that have been half baked because it seems like it might be worthwhile. So, one of the thoughts I had when I was talking to Dr. Smith was her sort of getting in between the two of you in a nearly parental sort of way. And, saying okay, you go to your room and you go to your room.
CLIENT: Except we don't have two rooms. [00:07:00]
THERAPIST: I understand. (laughter) Yeah. No, it was, but, yeah. And, I think you're both too overwhelmed with what's going on and I think it's pretty clear to everybody.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: And, that there are sort of ways that your depression is kind of like locking the two of you together now, but in a way that's not working well. And, it was, in some respect, easier to handle when you weren't living in the vicinity. And, that you kind of haven't kind of been able to get yourself back to even in part while living together since you've moved here like a sense of having more space which, you know, is not going to be physical space where you live.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:08:30]
THERAPIST: And, that...
CLIENT: I feel like I have to check in with James to make sure if everything's okay before I do it. Like, it just sort of feels like I have to ask his permission to like do almost anything.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: And, so then I'm like great, now I'm supposed to talk to Chad about planning in therapy. Like, I was like James, I told James the more that the way I ask to like talk about logistics with Chad the less time we have for me to be, to do what I am going to therapy for.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And, I think this is just kind of me asking James for permission to do things which is something that, you know, like those things contribute to.
THERAPIST: Right. Okay. I guess maybe we should leave that where it is? [00:10:15]
CLIENT: Yeah. Definitely. So, I'm going to the church today to help them put up stuff for Christmas.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: To do flowers and put up a lot of wreaths and things.
THERAPIST: Wreaths?
CLIENT: Like, everything. Nothing like the flower guild to make me feel like a kid.
THERAPIST: Oh?
CLIENT: Oh, just, I don't know. It's like they're always very particular about flower arranging. They really like things done exactly their way. Yeah. One woman kind of hurt my feelings. She just wasn't happy with the way I was doing it and just, just every two minutes kept telling me to do something different and finally I just said can I do something other than make wreaths because she's not happy with me? Yeah. There was this woman at my church when I was a kid that was really funny looking and she was like one of those people it's like you, like, sort of, I feel they sort of exist in order to be put in to short stories because like... [00:12:00]
THERAPIST: Funny. That's a great name for a story.
CLIENT: Yeah. And, she was like this little woman who looked exactly like a pit bull and had one glass eye and like 17 cats and one little Yorkshire terrier and all of the cats had Christmas stockings and she was the flower guild and I have very vivid memories of her. I got roped in to decorating the church once. You know, the flower guild is way too serious to let kids do it most of the time.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: But, this was like a special Sunday when it was just the kids that were decorating creating it. Which meant that she like got all the stuff together and then stood over me and told me how to do it.
THERAPIST: I see. Yeah.
CLIENT: And, you know, told me I was doing it wrong constantly.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:13:00]
CLIENT: My mom was in to flower arranging when she was working the first few years. There's nothing more cut throat. Taking her down to the ground.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: She, yeah.
THERAPIST: She has like a, there's something like competitive and cut throat about her?
CLIENT: Oh, yeah.
THERAPIST: Oh, really?
CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Very, like really competitive.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Such that playing games with her is tricky as an adult because either she wins and is, and I don't like losing. You know, we're all pretty competitive.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Either she wins and it, you know, kind of makes me feel bad about losing or she loses and gets kind of bitchy. So.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: It's hard. Like, I try to, I want to support the things that she's really in to doing, but the way that she kind of frames like the running and really in to racing and everything, it's about who she beats and...
THERAPIST: Is there something kind of...
CLIENT: She's not very sportsman like. Of course, I'm terrible at being a good sport.
THERAPIST: Oh, really? [00:14:45]
CLIENT: It's hard playing years with James and Franco because I lose like 80 percent of the games.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Maybe 90.
THERAPIST: Like, 40 games?
CLIENT: Like ten games. Any games. Yeah. I just, I always lose. Yeah. Except at the bananagrams. I'm really good at the bananagrams. But, then I'm like, but I'm good enough at bananagrams that like I like feel bad about how much I win.
THERAPIST: That doesn't work either.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, eventually I just start losing on purpose. You know?
THERAPIST: It's always domineering.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: One way or another. I mean either it feels that way if you're winning or it feels that way if you're not and with your mother, it is just that way, I guess. [00:16:00]
CLIENT: Yeah. My dad, since he had the stroke, he doesn't play games at all anymore. Like, he's like I don't play games where somebody loses. He's like I can't do it anymore. It's bad for my blood pressure. Which, you know, I guess like, he had a stroke. He gets to do that.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Wow.
CLIENT: When I was about probably like ten or 11 there was a year or two where, you know, we played like gin rummy almost every night. At some point, I caught on to the fact that he was letting me win and I got really mad at him. I don't know whether he stopped or not, but...
THERAPIST: You wouldn't have had it.
CLIENT: Yeah. But, he wouldn't teach us to play bridge forever until we were adults.
THERAPIST: Why?
CLIENT: Because in his family bridge was, everyone was so mean to each other at the bridge table. Like, you bid wrong. [00:17:20]
THERAPIST: Like it's a capital offense?
CLIENT: Yeah. And, yet somehow I really like playing games. I don't know.
THERAPIST: The flower guild.
CLIENT: Yes. Yes, it does. I mean, I don't know what it is about flowers, but like people who go in them are just brutal.
THERAPIST: Yeah. It sounds like a blood sport.
CLIENT: Yes. It really is. It's sort of hilarious if you don't care about it and if, you know, if doesn't bother you when people are mean to you, but you know. On the outside it's very funny.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: I think my dad finds it very funny.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But, it's pretty serious.
THERAPIST: Right. Seems like a best in show type documentary.
CLIENT: Probably so. [00:19:00]
THERAPIST: Honestly, I think you maybe kind of feel that way a lot of the time. Like, just the way the flower guild ladies made you feel. Like somebody is standing over you. Watching you. And, in this very persecutory way. Like, telling you you're doing something wrong until it gets to the point where you can't handle it anymore.
CLIENT: I mean I always feel like I'm doing something wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't know what it would be like not to be kind of constantly checking what I'm doing against some standard of right. I mean how much am I fucking up now? How about now? How about now? So, like, it's one of those things I don't notice in some ways. It's like it just doesn't matter when I get like that. But, you know, I didn't constantly think I was doing something wrong and how it's going to get better. [00:21:00]
THERAPIST: Well, I think you probably would feel more cared about in a way that, I don't know, might be kind of scary or upsetting or something.
CLIENT: Not have somebody over my shoulder yelling at me all the time.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Better not to use my own judgment. I guess the worst for me is feeling like I have let my down my guard. Like, I have let down my guard and really fucked something up. Like, I'm feeling like I have not been careful enough. Yeah. Theoretically, there's actually no way to be careful enough that you don't ever make me feel this way. [00:23:30]
THERAPIST: Well, it sounds very hurtful to feel like you're fucking things up all the time.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I guess the problem is that I always think that there's always the implicit assumption that there is a right thing to do in any given circumstance and I should know what that is and then I should do it. So, like, you know. Trying to come up with a plan for when things get bad. There has got to be a right thing to do. It shouldn't be, I mean I should be able to. Yeah. So, occasionally, I realize like how much I police how I talk here. It's a whole lot as it turns out. Performing ever more accurate versions of myself. [00:26:10]
THERAPIST: I, my impression is that you seem like, my impression is that you feel really, really upset and that you like are being pretty sort of careful or like talking about things at like a different level from how upset you feel and I guess I'm wondering if, particularly sort of today in part because it's Friday.
CLIENT: That thought had crossed my mind.
THERAPIST: And we're not going to meet until Tuesday. I am looking for a Monday time. I don't have one this week.
CLIENT: I don't know. I don't actually feel that upset.
THERAPIST: Oh. Okay. Yeah. Maybe I'm misjudging.
CLIENT: But, yeah, I am anxious about it being Friday. Yeah. You know, I feel better today than I have the last few days.
THERAPIST: Good.
CLIENT: It doesn't actually, it doesn't so much feel like anything's gotten better so much as there's only so long you can sustain feeling that bad. I'm sick and tired of it. [00:28:00] .
THERAPIST: Yeah. I, I wonder if talking about some of the stuff that Dr. Smith's been helpful at, I know that, you know, there's this new and questionable plan, how it's going to be and it, you know, you and James are kind of more exclusive about how much trouble you're having with each other around stuff. But, I wonder if like having that up front on the table.
CLIENT: It's good to be talking about it.
THERAPIST: Yeah. I think you were feeling pretty trapped with it for a while. And, you know, it's certainly, I'm not feeling any better, but I, my impression is that it's not so causative way either.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I mean I know we haven't talked about it here, but, you know, with James and, you know, in couple's therapy where it's kind of there.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.
THERAPIST: That may not be why you're feeling better.
CLIENT: But, It doesn't hurt.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. I've been productive in the last couple of days, which is really helpful.
THERAPIST: Right. Did you apply for...
CLIENT: I don't know if that's cause and effect, but...
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Yeah, I applied for a job yesterday and today just, you know, going to therapy and then working at the church. But, to get out of the house is always nice.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Well, it's not always nice, but it's probably good for me.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:29:35]
CLIENT: Yeah. So. I don't know what I'm going to do. You know, quitting helped.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Worked quickly. Were the managers more survivable yesterday?
CLIENT: Yeah, it was fine.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Yeah. It was really slow.
THERAPIST: Good.
CLIENT: That's okay. I told him yesterday.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And, my boss was very good about it.
THERAPIST: Good.
CLIENT: And, he didn't press me for reasons or press me for a day or give me a hard time. He just said okay. Yeah. I can imagine that's part of it too. Yeah. I told my friends who were there. I don't know what's going to happen next and that's very scary. I'm not really looking forward to applying for more jobs. It's really hard. In some ways I almost wish I hadn't quit, because I so much don't want to be doing that. But, yeah. I don't know If I have the right answer. It's all he could do to me. [00:31:30]
THERAPIST: You're probably right.
CLIENT: I don't know.
THERAPIST: What?
CLIENT: The problem is I'm so used to thinking of myself as a failure. I think applying for jobs is actually going to be pretty hard, because I'm not very good at, you know, selling myself.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And, I just assume that I'm not qualified for anything and that no one will ever hire me.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And no one will want to hire me. Yeah, it's pretty scary. It's really hard. Yes, I guess I'm pretty scared to do it and it's really hard. I really like that guy, Paul. [00:34:00]
THERAPIST: Yeah?
CLIENT: Yeah. He's fantastic. He's a really, really nice person.
THERAPIST: Good.
CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:34:20) I need to get in touch with my advisor to tell him I'm not coming back. Mostly because I need to ask him to be a reference for me for jobs.
THERAPIST: Ouch.
CLIENT: Yeah. It sort of feels like, I mean from one angle, so two and a half years ago, you know, I was kind of a rock star and everything. And, that made me really nervous, because I didn't really see why everybody said I was so fantastic. It was like really? I'm really not. I promise. I'm really not. I can't live up to this and it sort of feels like I'm now trying to convince myself that I in no way lived up to what people expected of me because I'm much more comfortable being a failure. [00:36:00]
That I should want to that. And I had a conversation with a friend, a friend the other day and last year at the SPL. You know, he hadn't seen me in a year and I was kind of saying yeah, I'm having a really tough time. The program is really hard and people aren't supporting me. It's just really hard and he just didn't want to hear it. He said no, you'll be, you're going to be just fine. You're going to do just fine. You're going to do so well. You're going to be just fine. I said no, I'm not sure I'm going to finish this. He said no, of course you are. I started crying actually and that was awkward. I'm not good enough friends with him.
THERAPIST: To do be doing that? [00:37:30]
CLIENT: Yeah. I also was like, it's like, you know, a hotel lobby and there's like tons of people like networking or talking everywhere. Well, this is awkward. I talked to him about academia and the work that I've done in the last few years and therapy today and I don't know. It's like I don't remember that part of me very well anymore. You know, it's like I can't, it's hard to remember that that's something that makes me really happy or did at one point.
THERAPIST: So, then you feel at a loss? [00:39:00]
CLIENT: I don't know. More I, I feel like I've lost something. It's like I'm less than I used to be or something. I'm familiar at feeling like I'm doing this wrong. Like, right here.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I don't know.
THERAPIST: Did it sort of just hit you? [00:40:00]
CLIENT: In just the last couple of weeks. No, that's not quite true. It kept coming up.
THERAPIST: I guess my... Yeah, I'm just wondering about why, why it's so much more comfortable and why it matters to you so much to feel like you're, you're feeling so badly. [00:41:20]
CLIENT: Well, it's hard for me to think that I could crash and burn and that it not actually be my fault or that things happen. Things are hard.
THERAPIST: Like, it sort of means the feeling of being helpless or out of control. [00:42:20]
CLIENT: Well, it's usually why. It's easier to be somebody who's not quite living up to what you might do in some issues. Doing exactly what you might do. Does that make sense? Like it's easier to be somebody with untapped potential and not. I don't feel like I've missed any chances here. I feel like I had my chances and it just hasn't been working. [00:43:30]
THERAPIST: You do need to, it's important to answer the question.
CLIENT: Well, you asked a question.
THERAPIST: I actually, I...
CLIENT: No, you didn't.
THERAPIST: I mean that's okay.
CLIENT: You implied a question.
THERAPIST: I had a question. I guess maybe it's uncomfortable not to know. [00:44:30]
CLIENT: I guess it's like I was reading an article on my reader where it said this is a crazy person who writes about psychiatry. It's probably really bad for me, but it's something that I think basically said, yes, this is what, the reason most therapies don't work is because the first trick for self defense is to come to a realization that's actually fairly obvious and then not go beyond that. Say, oh, I am finding out about myself. No, you already knew that, but, so, I guess I'm just trying to push.
THERAPIST: Oh. Like, you're worried this could fail because we both need.
CLIENT: To clarify.
THERAPIST: Okay. Because you like kind of convince yourself that you've got something new when it's something you already had?
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. [00:45:50]
THERAPIST: It's better to try and keep pushing.
CLIENT: Yeah, I'm trying.
THERAPIST: Yeah, I think the passivity and uncertainty and feelings of helplessness are so scary.
CLIENT: Yeah. Which is funny because I ordinarily think of myself as more than just passive and helpless.
THERAPIST: Anything else before we finish up?
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: Okay. If I get a cancel and something opens up on Monday, I will let you know.
CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.
END TRANSCRIPT
