TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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CLIENT: So, I got a job.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: It's one a day a week, so, nothing to get too excited about.

THERAPIST: Congratulations.

CLIENT: It's Saturday mornings, but yeah. I'm tutoring two kids.

THERAPIST: Oh, cool. In what?

CLIENT: English. Yeah, they're just reading some books. Yeah, basically just working on reading comprehension and vocabulary.

THERAPIST: What age?

CLIENT: Two kids are in 5th grade and one kid is in 8th grade. So, yeah.

THERAPIST: Cool.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What's it through?

CLIENT: Through an independent tutoring agency. This woman is from Asia and just started a tutoring company for like her family that is in the area mostly and their friends.

THERAPIST: Cool.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It's something. [00:01:10]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm not going back to ECT. Officially, definitely not. So, we'll see how that goes. You know, I hate going against people's advice. It sort of feels like that it will be my fault and I feel bad. I know. I know. (laughter) Yeah. (pause) [00:02:30]

I've been really, really anxious and I'm not sure why. I've just been fretting a lot. I mean I feel like I'm constantly about to cry. So, that's fun. (pause) [00:03:30]

James, I think is, I think James is fretting some also. He handles it better than I do. Yeah. He has been snapping at me for things to do with like student loan bills. Basically, we've, we worked it out a couple of months ago that he's just going to handle them. So, you know, he has my passwords and everything and he gets all the e-mails and he just handles them. And, then I forgot that that's what we had worked out. (laughter) So, I'd get a bill and start freaking out about it and then he gets upset with me about that. You know, I still don't remember that conversation that we had where we decided that this is not the way to handle it. [00:05:30]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I mean I just don't.

THERAPIST: How long ago was it?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Like, I guess I'm asking during ECT?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it was during ECT. I think it was just like a couple months ago. I mean something that's clearly easy to be related is happening, but I just don't remember that this is how we're handling things.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So. I did call the insurance.

THERAPIST: Blue Cross?

CLIENT: Yeah. Blue Cross. And, got finally an e-mail. You wait for like a half an hour. I finally got a woman on the phone and finally got her to send like 20 claims. Basically all the claims that have been over 30 days, she sent them her superior.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: That is definitely going to get taken care of. Well, she tells me it's definitely going to get taken care of.

THERAPIST: She had no explanation as to why? [00:06:45]

CLIENT: No. Nothing. She said that should not be happening and I'm like yeah, you're telling me. So, it's coming along. I am very tightly wound and I don't really have any explanation for that. I just am. (pause) [00:07:45]

Yeah, I haven't called them to tell them that I'm not coming back to ECT yet. That's this afternoon. [00:08:45]

THERAPIST: You decided that's the official part?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what I decided. I know what's going to happen is that I'm going to call and they're going to say well, why don't you talk to the doctor about this and I'm going to talk to him and he's going to say well, I really think you should do this some more. I think you should keep doing this. I'm going to go oh and I'm just going to feel guilty, but I don't know. I don't care that I'm going to feel guilty anymore just because I know from experience that I'm going to feel worse if I keep doing it. I'm just going to keep feeling bad. You know, I still feel cognitively as though I'm swimming in Jell-O, but the hope is that that will go away. [00:10:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah and it does continue to seem to be fading at least as I see it?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: At least it as it looks to me.

CLIENT: Yeah. I can sort tell that I'm doing better. I don't feel like I'm doing better at all.

THERAPIST: You have indications?

CLIENT: Yeah. I can tell that, you know, that I'm handling things. I still can't remember anything. Like anything. I sort of can't remember things in the best of times.

THERAPIST: Do you mean during the period where you had ECT or do you mean things that have happened like since the beginning of this week as well?

CLIENT: I'm not really sure. Yeah, it's... [00:11:00]

THERAPIST: I mean you're certainly reporting things here that have happened in recent days, although there may still be a lot that's happened that you don't remember. It's not clear to me. I guess, yeah, one of my ideas is it like a black out period during the ECT or is it still difficult to be forming new memories of things that have happened since?

CLIENT: It feels like it's difficult to form new memories.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's hard to tell.

CLIENT: It's hard to tell and I am not sure if I trust my memory on that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Sure. [00:12:00]

CLIENT: I just hate this so much. Oh, well. I had no way of knowing. I talked with James a lot last night, about, you know, being angry at the ECT people. My thought on it is I guess I'm just not that interested in setting myself up as a victim. I'm not. I mean there are a lot of people I think who do feel like they've been victimized by ECT. You know, there's kind of the people who think it's greatest thing ever and then people who feel like they've had their lives taken away from them. [00:13:00]

You know, if I had known what it was going to be like, I would not have done it, but I didn't and I had no way of knowing and I'm not sure. I just don't, I'm just not that interested in investing a lot of emotional energy in being angry about it and being angry at specific people. I mean it's frustrating that these people are clearly like they have the best of intentions. Like, they're true believers. They really think they're helping me. They really, really think that. You know, that pisses me off, but, you know, I'm not interested in joining a support group sort of thing. I still have to deal with it, you know. (pause) [00:14:45]

THERAPIST: I think you really had, like, being angry at them will make you look maybe to me like it means you're a victim or have been victimized or like you're, you know, some kind of sentimental kind of pathetic support groupie. [00:16:20]

CLIENT: Possibly. (laughter)

THERAPIST: And that I would think critically of you for that. You see it way if you are pissed off or if you want support or reassurance about what happened to you in ECT.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess that's about right. Yeah. I worry about that. (pause) [00:17:20]

Yeah. I'm not going to tell my parents that I'm upset about how this went down, for example, or probably not. I mean, you know, that also has to do with my parents, but it's my mother would start a crusade on my behalf and my father would think poorly of me for being upset.

THERAPIST: I guess those are the two roles right there, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where she makes you sort of in to the pathetic, victimized person who needs crusading on her behalf and he makes you in to another kind of woman who's like complaining about her feelings or something. [00:18:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am really grumpy at my dad right now. It's not, largely unfairly, but, oh well. He's not going to know about it, so, oh well. Yeah. I sort of feel like these people are trying so hard to help me, how dare I not be helped. Yeah. Yeah. What's wrong with me? [00:19:50]

THERAPIST: So, I think there's a real split that happens there with the kind of intensity of the guilt that you feel for not being helped like any reasonable person would have been?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And, the disappointment and fury on the other side of the split for being promised real help, but the people who should know and believe and who didn't help. [00:21:10]

CLIENT: I'm much more, I don't know, I think I'm mostly really just upset that it just fucked with my brain so much. The fact that it didn't help, I was only sort of expecting it to help at all. I mean by this point and time I don't think anything's going to help. You know, the fact that it made my life so much worse is what I'm angry about.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:22:10]

I just say that because I remember very clearly thinking well, this probably isn't going to do anything, but it's worth a try. Just like everything is worth a try, but probably didn't you know. Which is its own disappointment, but... I mean that I would be much more okay with if that was just get pissed off at everybody keeps insisting that things are in fact going to help me. It's like no, you really don't know. No. Medications just don't help at all. They just don't do anything. This probably isn't going to. I mean, stop trying to convince me to have faith in the system. (pause) [00:23:20 to 00:24:40]

THERAPIST: You know, that makes me think of why I think you continue to come here and like a talk that I, which I think at least as I understand it, or maybe this is wrong, I talk I went like a while ago, but I guess, who was a famous poet. Who was, we were talking about, you know how like she had that thing, poets and I acknowledged (ph) in the world.

CLIENT: I like it.

THERAPIST: And this poet was saying like not really. You know, it's not going to save us. He said, but, you know, we may make ourselves more worth saving and that's how I imagine you think about coming here. That you don't think about it as it's going to save you or make you better, but as something that is one thing that sort of would not make it worth being better. [00:26:30]

CLIENT: Yeah, I would like that. (pause) This does help though in a real way, but in a kind of a different way. Like, it's not like it makes it hurt less, but... So, I don't really know how to describe it, but... (pause) [00:28:00]

It's like even though it doesn't hurt any less, it's more bearable.

THERAPIST: I see. (pause) [00:29:00]

It tends to help some when it's even a little clearer what you're bearing or someone's helping you even a bit to bear it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: As you say, not because it means that there is less pain.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) So, that's good. [00:30:00]

THERAPIST: I think it's also an experience you've probably have not often had with the feelings that have been most troubling you.

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah, I feel completely wrong footed in here. It's really, really scary. (pause) [00:31:15]

Which is funny because it's not like I haven't told people what goes on with me. You know. I tell people. (pause) I don't know what it is. It feels like it's hard for people to hear me most of the time. [00:32:20]

THERAPIST: And, I think also scary when they do.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughter) Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think it involves putting yourself in feeling like you're putting yourself in people's hands, which is very scary for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. The only thing worse than not being understood would be being understood.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Oh. (laughter) (pause) [00:34:00]

Yeah. I think most of the time I work very hard to protect myself. It's not entirely clear to me how that works, but it's very clear that that's what is going on. (pause) [00:35:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think the things we talk about tend to focus on the part of how you do that. Protecting yourself to do as if you and your fears or whatever more so than on like the risks. Like, the kind of fear of other people or anger towards us, like, because we could drop you or because we have. Like, self protectiveness as though it's a problem of yours. Not that it comes out of disappointment or betrayal. [00:36:40]

CLIENT: Well, I think people still really want me to be protecting myself in that way. You know, that's just how people have relationships.

THERAPIST: You mean people wanting to know what's going on.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Yeah. There's just, you know, kind of a mode of being with somebody that lets you be comfortable and makes you feel like you are safe.

THERAPIST: You mean that people expect of you?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:37:40]

I want to do that for people. (pause) You know, nobody wants to know that I'm depressed. Nobody does. James sort of does, but it's just this huge problem that they can't solve. It just seems like it's not fair to ask him to deal with it. (pause) [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: I know that that's often true because it makes things less scary for you. [00:40:00]

CLIENT: How do you mean?

THERAPIST: You're going to be anyway.

CLIENT: (Laughter) Possibly. Yeah. Yeah. Because, well, if I start telling them, then they're just going to drop me. [00:41:00]

THERAPIST: We haven't talked about it much recently, but I imagine you had thoughts or worries about me dropping you through the recent hospitalizations or these or something.

CLIENT: No. Not really.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I stopped worrying about you pretty fast. I did worry about you, but, you know, that was kind of just at first.

THERAPIST: Worrying after you like were first hospitalized a few months ago.

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay. I don't remember that.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Yeah. You had the doctor who said no maybe you shouldn't be getting so much therapy. Maybe that's making things worse and stirring things up. You were kind of flipping out about it. [00:42:00]

CLIENT: I don't remember any of that from ECT. See, this is what happens. I just don't like, I don't remember any of my treatment. Like, nothing that happened. It's just gone.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right. It was a few months before.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's really... Do you remember being at the hospital at all?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: I'd say that you were there if I hadn't said anything about being there, would you have remembered that you had been there?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: So, I see. It's not just like you don't remember what your room looked like.

CLIENT: It's not that I can't form new memories, it's like my life is gone.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right, and not just like you have kind of a hazy memory or remember what your room at the hospital looked like. [00:43:00]

CLIENT: I don't remember being there.

THERAPIST: You just know that you were there. Like you were never there.

CLIENT: That word doesn't mean anything to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. I was surprised just now when I mentioned you not remembering the doctor, because I knew it made a big impact on you at the time. He said you were quite worried about for a week or it was at least a few days. We talked about it.

CLIENT: Like, I have a vague memory of somebody telling me I was doing too much therapy and flipping out about it, but I wouldn't have remembered it if you didn't say anything to me.

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah. Yeah. (pause) [00:44:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I, it feels like I don't worry. I don't know whether that's true or not.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But, that's what it feels like. You know, I worry about things like what's going to happen if I get a job in San Antonio, like if that ever happened.

THERAPIST: You applied for jobs in San Antonio?

CLIENT: I applied for a job in San Antonio at the school I taught at before.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And went to, right?

CLIENT: I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: And went to.

CLIENT: And went to. Yeah. It would basically be the perfect job. It would be a teaching lab, which I am totally not qualified to do. By not qualified I don't have a Masters in classics, but I'm very good at Latin. I would teach it. I would be just fine at it.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:45:15]

CLIENT: They want somebody who could teach other classes also, which would be really fun. So. But, you know, I also don't want to leave the city.

THERAPIST: We should finish for now.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Sure.

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