TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Oh. I forgot how exhausting my Dad is. I always forget. He's a piece of work. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yes. (laughs) As I was leaving to come here James said, "When you get out just give us a call because who knows where we'll be." (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: He's absolutely right. They could be anywhere. Oh. (laughs) I mean, you know, James probably is like, he's always ready but what he always wants to do is go to a coffee shop and have some coffee and get a little something, or go take a walk, or go to an art museum. And that's what I like to do, so that's good. It's always nice. But he's got this weird kind diffuseness or something. [00:01:24]

Like I sort of worry. He's talking about some neighbors, a neighbor of ours who's like my Dad's age who he said is in the early stages of dementia. And I worry about that with my Dad a lot. He's just so vague all the time. But at the same time he's like really sharp about some things. You just don't know it until (laughs), you know, until he brings up something you said like two weeks ago in exactly the right moment. (pause)

So this morning he sends me a text while I'm still in bed and he's gotten up and gone out to go take a walk. And he says, you know, "Come and have some coffee." I said, "Okay, but it's going to take me a little bit because, you know, I have to take a shower. And James's in the shower now." And, you know, I got up and it's just fret, fret, fret, fret, fret. [00:03:04]

This morning I was worrying about teaching and tutoring. You know, it's been a long time since I've taught. And what if I'm terrible at it? (laughs) So I texted him back and I said, you know, "I really don't think I can come. Can you just come back here and we can have coffee here. I'm just not up for leaving the house right now."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And nothing. Like he didn't even write back. I didn't hear anything. So about fifteen minutes later it's, "What's going on? Where is he?" So I texted him again, you know, "Hey, where are you? What's going on?" Nothing. Nothing. So about half an hour after that, (laughs) you know, I had a crying fit between what I'm worrying about already and then worrying like, "Is he upset with me? Has he had a stroke?" Because he's had a stroke. Is he lost? What's going on? Like, where is he? [00:04:32]

So James called him and he doesn't answer his phone. (pause) (laughs) So, you know, maybe an hour and a half after I texted him the first time he called James back and he had just been reading. He just had forgotten to answer his phone and then apparently he was, "Oh, James called me. I guess I'll call him back." (pause) Uh. (pause) Uh. (pause) So between him being just so vague and me feeling like I have to keep really careful track of everything or I'll, you know, let him down in some major may and then he'll be upset with me. [00:05:35]

I've been a little tense today. (laughs) (pause) He really doesn't want to hear about me being sad, it seems like. (pause) So. (long pause) So I just haven't been telling him. [00:06:39]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I talked to him some about what's been going on with the ECT and being upset about that. You know, he just didn't really want to hear about it. Or he -

THERAPIST: I think you may want me to help make sense of him for you.

CLIENT: Good luck. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: But yeah. Yeah. I don't know. (long pause) Sorry, I interrupted you.

THERAPIST: No that's okay. Yeah. Or I think you want me to sort of at least try to make sense of your experience of him. (pause) Which I gather feels like it doesn't make sense. [00:08:03]

CLIENT: Well, sometimes it's like he's so present and, you know, in those times, yeah, he's wise. You know, he just really knows. But most of the time, yeah, he's the opposite. (pause) You know, on the one hand I know he would do anything for me and I've seen him do anything for me. (pause) Um. (pause) And then on the other hand, um, (pause) I feel like he can't pay enough attention to me to care about me. (pause) Um. [00:09:45]

It's like he's just not, I mean he just doesn't see me. (pause) Yeah. He gets furious that one of his friends has taken to calling him a nickname. His name is David. Like, "No, my name is not 'Dave.'" Like, "No." And he said actually this trip, you know, his football coaches used to call him "Dave" and they were always really mean to him and he hated football. So he just doesn't like that.

And I'm like, "Okay. I understand that. I really sympathize with that." But he calls me his wife's name. (laughs) [00:10:56]

THERAPIST: (laughs) Sometimes. (ph)

CLIENT: Every time. (laughs) And like sometimes he corrects himself but a lot of the time he just doesn't. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) (sigh) You know, eventually you get used to it. Like he used to call me our dog's name. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:11:31)

CLIENT: And, you know, you get used to it. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: But it's not my favorite thing. (laughs) (pause) It wouldn't do any good to say anything to him about it.

THERAPIST: Why not?

CLIENT: Well, because he's just not going to be able to remember. And then I'll just feel bad about the fact that he can't remember. (sigh) And it just doesn't seem worthwhile to me. (long pause) Yeah, I feel like I get upset with him over all of these little things that I don't think are worth talking about. That I don't think they're worth getting upset about them. I don't think they're worth getting upset about, but I'm still upset. (laughs) So I don't know what to do. [00:12:57] (long pause)

THERAPIST: Well. (pause) These really aren't little things. I mean he texted you at the coffee shop, you texted him back. And not just anything, but something that conveyed that you're having a hard time and you weren't up to leaving the apartment. And he doesn't get back to you for an hour and a half. Like you're worried about his safety. Like you guys tried him three or four times. He doesn't pick up or respond. You have no idea afterwards, as far as I know, why he didn't respond. [00:14:08]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It doesn't seem like such a little thing. Like his treating you, you know, maybe if it were just the thing about names and that were isolated from everything else, that wouldn't be a huge deal. Although, like to have your father call you the dog's name. I don't know.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: But -

CLIENT: It's less weird than it seems. (laughs) Taken in context it seems pretty normal. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That may be part of the problem.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Because part of you is responding like it isn't normal and another part of you thinks it really ought to feel pretty normal, I think. [00:15:14]

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess what I mean by, "It's a little thing," is just that I don't feel like it would do any good to get upset about it.

THERAPIST: Those are two entirely different things to me.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It probably wouldn't do a whole lot of good to get upset about the massacre in Cambodia in the seventies.

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay. (laughs)

THERAPIST: It doesn't mean it's a little thing. I don't mean to compare your childhood to the [massacre] (ph). I'm sorry.

CLIENT: I know. It's okay. (laughs) I know.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Okay. I was being a little dramatic, I guess. Partly because, well (pause) yeah, I think maybe that's part of how you had to think about it to kind of live with it without being really upset a lot. [00:16:41]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's that if you can't do anything about it, you shouldn't be upset about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But if you are it means there's something wrong with you.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's about how I feel.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And I can see how that like in a way has a sort of a practical value in that, you know, in theory you can control or do something about yourself being upset sort of. Or at least you could have the idea that you could, rather than, (pause) rather being confronted with something that makes you upset that you can't control or in a way communicate with. [00:17:46]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I was really upset this morning. I was really, really upset. (pause)

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: I (pause), I felt like, you know, I think, you know, I was already on edge. I was already worrying a lot. And then just to have this thing with Poppa where I just had absolutely no control over the situation and I couldn't get any. And I felt like I should be doing something else, but I didn't know what I should be doing. But there was nothing else I could do. [00:18:58]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I didn't know whether he was angry with me.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And I was, you know, I really worry about that. (pause) You know, I felt like I should be taking better care of him. But (pause) I just needed to take care of myself also. Yeah, because I really wasn't up to leaving the house. (laughs) You know, I was panicking. (pause) So I just cried a lot. James was very nice to me. [00:20:09]

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I think he did not have much idea of what was going on. But, you know, I didn't really understand what was going on.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But, yeah, he was very nice to me.

THERAPIST: And the worry about tutoring and teaching was that wouldn't be good enough at it? That you'd be bad at it?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I worry that, you know, I don't have much experience with it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or that I just won't be able to do it right. (pause) [00:21:21]

THERAPIST: I guess around a lot of this there's this sort of meta issue in a way that like you just can't be upset about stuff without framing it as you doing something wrong. Like with the teaching it occurs to me, you know, you may be worried because it could be hard. Or you could be worried that it will be overwhelming because you don't have a ton of experience at it. Or that you're rusty, or whatever. That's not exactly what you worry about, which is much more that you will screw it up. You will not do it right. Not that it will be difficult.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm not worried that it's going to be hard. If it's hard, so what. Everything is hard and you just put in the work. Yeah, I'm just worried I'll do it wrong. (laughs) [00:22:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Here again with your Dad like, oh my God, you're not hearing from him. He must be mad at you. Maybe you did something wrong. And clearly you shouldn't be upset about it. It seems that when you have a strong feeling about something, it has to come back to you feeling you're doing something wrong?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yes. (pause) You know sometimes I have to twist things around pretty hard to frame it that I can be doing something wrong. (laughs) But I usually manage. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well if I can't do anything about it, I shouldn't be upset about it is a pretty good [one.] (ph) And certainly also it occurs (inaudible at 00:23:36). Being upset about people who have died is entirely off the table.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well you can't do anything about it.

CLIENT: (laughs) Fair enough. Oh. Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: You're working very hard to kind of reorient (ph) to what's upsetting you and how much, I guess. (pause) Am I not being clear? [00:24:30]

CLIENT: I'm not quite understanding. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: Like (pause) I guess as I think about it, I'm really not saying much. I'm just kind of reiterating what you just said about like how sometimes you have to work pretty hard to -

CLIENT: Oh, make it about me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: [Make it my fault?] (ph) Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well and I think a lot of it is because it doesn't feel like the other person can tolerate, take in, respond helpfully to what you feel. [00:25:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. I had a really good encounter with James last night, actually. I was very proud of myself. Where James was, we were going out to go get stuff for dinner and James said, "I want to finish this first." And then just took way too long about it and, you know, because he 's working on this paper that's due tomorrow. And so eventually I said, "We really should go." And, "Well I guess we can go without you."

And he was pretty rude and kind of snappish about being like, "Yes, maybe you should do that." And I said, "Well I thought you wanted to come with us." And he's like, "You should've left fifteen minutes ago because the place closes in fifteen minutes." And so we ran out and got stuff and ran back. And then I said, "James, this really bothered me."

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: And he didn't apologize for it. And I didn't really expect him to apologize for it because, you know, it's like it really bothered me that you did it, but he's under a fuck ton of pressure. And it wasn't that big of a deal. [00:26:45]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I just said, "You know, I just really wanted to bring it up because I didn't want to let it fester."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "It irritated me, and I was irritated. But I feel like we're okay." So we just talked about it and then we got over it. It was great.

THERAPIST: Great.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Good for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, you know, I really trust James.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: And from what you're describing with your Dad it seemed really clear, at least in part, with this came from. I mean (pause) In some sense you often have no idea where he's going to be in two minutes. Let alone sort of having any confidence or assurance that you can talk to him about something at the time that it's bothering you between you. [00:28:20]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm sure there are times he can be right there for that, and you're saying that as one possibility.

CLIENT: But it's kind of luck. And, you know, the spaciness, a lot of it is very funny because like you just have to say, you just have to perceive it as funny.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or it's going to drive you insane. I think it's the not knowing whether he's going to be able to listen to what I'm saying that really bothers me.

THERAPIST: He sounds pretty impaired.

CLIENT: He's getting there. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is this much different from how he's ever been?

CLIENT: Not really. I feel like he's getting worse, but I don't think he's getting that much worse. He's kind of always been like this. But I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah at least your experience of him is like, you know, the experience of someone who is pretty impaired.

CLIENT: Hm. Yeah. (pause) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm worried. [00:29:50]

THERAPIST: And like (pause) his daughter has been in a really bad way for a while. Just out of hospitalizations and ECT. He knows what that means. And you tell him you're upset and he didn't get back to you for an hour and a half. It's [distressing]. (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I don't know how much of this is me making excuses for him, but I did work pretty hard yesterday to seem like I was good, like I was doing okay. Yeah, I had a pretty good day yesterday and I worked pretty hard to seem like I was just (inaudible at 00:30:52).

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So, I don't -

THERAPIST: If you can fool your own Dad who knows what's been going on -

CLIENT: Yeah. (whispers)

THERAPIST: I mean, I know you're good at coming across as doing well, but -

CLIENT: This is why I tell him that I'm doing really well. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs) Well he knows about the ECT, he knows about the recent hospitalizations, he knows about the last years, he was married to somebody who was in and out of the hospital. Like, you know, you said he deals with people in the congregation who have [maybe similar] (ph) sorts of things. A day of seeming good, if that's convincing him you're fine [00:31:55]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Your father's, he's pretty far off there. I'm not saying that you might not be able to, I'm sure you could sort of make him think at any given moment that you're doing better, or [whatever better] (ph) I guess than you are. But there's a hell of a lot of context here.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like he doesn't, it feels like he's just not comfortable talking about this directly. Like he doesn't (pause) you know, he didn't really ask me how I was doing when he came up, you know, when he came in yesterday. [00:33:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I think that was probably on purpose. You know, because he knows I'm going to tell him. But I also think he's trying to help.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, I think he's here to try to help me. He just (pause)

THERAPIST: I'm not doubting how much he loves you or that he's up here to help you because he knows, in part, because he just wants to see you and, in part, because he knows what's been going on.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like, why won't he talk about it?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (pause) Sorry, you were going to say something?

THERAPIST: No, no. (long pause) I guess one of the main points I'm trying to make is, I imagine that a sort of big contribution to why you turn feelings into sort of your own fault in a way is because of not being able to count on him. [00:35:46]

CLIENT: Hm. I guess I don't really see the connection. I mean I see that the one is true and I see the other is true.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Um.

THERAPIST: Well, with James you kind of do things in a different way than you might ordinarily, but you felt confident enough to come back and tell him like, "Hey, that kind of pissed me off. And I know you're under a lot of pressure." But you broached it with him because you had some confidence he would hear you, I think. [00:36:55]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like it would even cross your mind to tell your Dad how much it affected you for the hour and a half that you didn't hear from him.

CLIENT: Well, I think about talking to him about it but I decide this isn't going to get me anywhere.

THERAPIST: And I believe you about that. I'm not, [in terms of true or not ] (ph)

CLIENT: It's probably not a hundred percent true. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I don't know. I feel like it is. (laughs)

THERAPIST: My point is not to doubt that talking to him wouldn't be productive. It's to point out that I think you're pretty convinced it wouldn't productive and that sort of leaves the whole thing in your lap.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But it seems to me that's kind of, that's just how he's often been.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Like that idea that he couldn't hear you, he didn't respond when you texted him five times.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well on the part of it that -

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, is that making the connection clearer? [00:38:08]

CLIENT: Yeah. It makes it a lot clearer. Yeah. The part that isn't really, isn't as much less of an issue now, but was a huge issue when I was younger was that, I mean, it used to be that I could never tell what was going to piss him off.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And what he was going to blow up about.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And he doesn't blow up as much anymore. He doesn't blow up much at all. But that's still who he is in my mind.

THERAPIST: Right. And in a way still who you probably most unconsciously feel like you're dealing with. In other words, even you know consciously that he's not going to blow up, the habits that you have are still formed by dealing with somebody who might at any time.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I'm still in the habit of treating him like glass in that way. It's like this might explode at any moment.

THERAPIST: And I think actually probably of treating everyone somewhat like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:39:29]

THERAPIST: Even people who in your head you know different about. And you're starting to change that. I mean that's a good example with James, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think somewhat with me as well. But I guess it seems (inaudible 00:39:43) it gets in there too in a big way.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause) See now in some ways I feel like, well of course I say I think everything is my fault. I grew up with somebody who used to tell me that everything was my fault. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Like, (inaudible at 00:40:15)

THERAPIST: Wait a minute, I think see where you going with that.

CLIENT: (laughs) So I don't know if I have told you about this, but I've been sailing with my Dad once. Did I tell you about the sailing trip?

THERAPIST: Uh.

CLIENT: It was horrible.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you did. But I'm not sure -

CLIENT: We were in the Florida Keys.

THERAPIST: Oh no. I don't know that one.

CLIENT: Because his ex-girlfriend, this woman he dated for like ten years, her Dad has a house in the Florida Keys and lives there much of the year. So we were in the Florida Keys and he had this Sunfish, this little teeny sailboat that he had fixed up. And he doesn't really know how to sail. But he is really good on boats and so he knows enough of his way around pretty much any boat. And he's like, "Yeah, it'll be fun." So he was kind of playing around with it.

And so he took me out in it and we went out to go out for picnic or whatever. We went exploring. We didn't bring enough water and he got cranky and I had no idea what I was doing, and I was like eight or nine. I was older than eight, I was maybe ten or eleven at the time. And at one point I think he told me to watch something or do something and I wasn't doing it right. And the boom swung around and hit him and he fell out of the boat and he lost his glasses. They dropped into the water and he couldn't find them again. [00:42:06]

And he got just like furious with me. He said, "Now it's your damn felt my glasses are lost." This was my fault. Of course it wasn't my fault. He was the one sailing the boat.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: But of course I believed him.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I think at some later point and time after he had cooled down, he, "That was really uncalled for. I was out of line." He apologized to me. And now he makes jokes about it. He tells that story to people. It's like, "No! What is wrong with you?" (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't even know what to do with that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (laughs) It's just ridiculous. [00:43:15]

THERAPIST: Well one thing that strikes me about it is that I suspect his making a joke out of it means he sees it as a quite isolated incident. That he doesn't make the connection between exploding and blaming you when he was responsible that time, and the all the other times. Which was a big part of your childhood, it sounds like.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. I mean I tend to see his making jokes about it as him just being deeply, deeply ashamed of that.

THERAPIST: Oh. Are they more self-deprecating jokes?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean he's like, "Ha ha. Wasn't I a terrible " Like, "Wasn't that terrible of me."

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I totally misunderstood the tenor of the joke.

CLIENT: Okay. No it's okay. But at least that's the way I read it. You have to kind of -

THERAPIST: No, no.

CLIENT: It's a little unclear. [00:44:35]

THERAPIST: [I can tell that] (ph) makes it worse, in a way.

CLIENT: I don't know. You know, because I think he feels really guilty about getting so angry at us.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: You know, I have to sort of feel bad for him. It's like, "Yeah, you really screwed up in some pretty major ways and you have to live with that now." And that I think is hard for him to live with. (pause) That being said, you know, his bringing it up now makes it harder for me to live with it. [00:45:34] (pause)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:45:45)

CLIENT: Yeah. Thank you.

THERAPIST: You're welcome.

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