TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Okay, good.

CLIENT: I'm going to write that down before I forget.

THERAPIST: Sure, I understand.

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Other than that, I'm good.

CLIENT: Okay. I had a really good weekend. So, now I'm you know, worried that I won't have anything to talk to you about.

(Laughter)

CLIENT: Yeah it was you know, sort of funny in kind of a sick way. Like everything that happened this weekend, I feel like I spent a good like, six hours fretting about it before hand. Like, this is going to go wrong, I'm going to do this wrong. Everybody will be angry at me. It's going to be terrible. Then it turned out to be really great. [0:00:59.5]

(Laughter)

CLIENT: So, yeah like, tutoring went really well. But you know, I'll have forgotten how to talk to children, it will be really terrible. (Chuckles) Before each time, it wasn't like, you know usually I'm supposed to meet with both sets of kids on the same day. This weekend I met, you know, one of them on Saturday, and once on Sunday. And I'm still freaking out on Sunday, even though I literally just met with some a kid, it went really well. No, no, I was still anxious. Then I read in church and that was very anxious. Made somebody like tell me exactly what I was supposed to do. Because I can't remember whether I have read in church before or not. Like I know that I have read in other churches but I can't remember whether I've read there. I don't remember if [0:01:58.2]

THERAPIST: What did you read?

CLIENT: It wasn't actually a biblical passage. They did this kind of contemplative Eucharist. So there was like candle lighting, so I read a poem called Incense I think. It was by some very young poet. Yeah. So it was okay. And then, you know it went really well. Yeah, and then they had supper after, supper at church, after the service. And so of course I spent a lot of time, like, do we go or do we not go? Am I going to be too anxious to talk to anybody? Is it going to be horrible? I don't know. And then it was great. So yeah. [0:02:53.1]

I got out of remembering anybody's name by saying, "Do you know my husband James?" (Laughter) It's very handy.

THERAPIST: You should thank him. (Laughter)

CLIENT: I didn't remember anybody's name.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Yeah. Speaking of which, how many times was I in the hospital this winter? (Pause) If you remember.

THERAPIST: Three or four.

CLIENT: Okay, thanks.

THERAPIST: There was once, let me look it up. That's right, there was this one late fall, but there was one like, the first time was just after you got back from being with your family.

CLIENT: Okay, because I remember like I remember the time in late fall. And I remember one time in like, late January/February. That's it. [0:04:00.3]

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. There were at least -

CLIENT: And James was like, "No, you were in the hospital four times." That seems like a lot to me. (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: Right. I remember three of them pretty clearly. There was the time that you came back from being with your family over the holidays I think.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And you seemingly enjoyed your time with them, it wasn't that things went badly there. It was actually that there was, it was sort of getting hit when you got back. I think maybe you started to work on some stuff, like job applications or something. And that really threw you, you felt sort of like the bottom dropped out. That's what I'm looking for. You felt somewhat held when you were with your family. And when you got home you started doing job applications, the bottom fell out.

CLIENT: Okay, thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure. And there was another time after that where you were really very dangerous.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: We talked late on a Wednesday, night and I told you and James that you needed to go. And you went to the ER.

CLIENT: I remember that, thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And then one other time was when, we met, it was a Tuesday morning, and then you went in for ECT. And they thought that-

CLIENT: That I should stay.

THERAPIST: They thought you should stay, and you stayed. And I'm getting confused. I'm sure James's count is right. But I'm getting confused whether there was one prior to the one after getting back from being with your family. Or I'm missing one where you went in shorter term. [0:05:47.8]

CLIENT: Well he said he thought it might be three or four.

THERAPIST: Okay, all right.

CLIENT: So, thanks.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Yeah, I like, I remember what the hospital looks like. I remember what the other one looks like. That's really about it. (Chuckle) Yeah, yeah. The memory loss continues to bother me. I know I just ranted about it like two days ago, but I might have to rant about it. It's, yeah, it just doesn't go away. You know, I'm more calm about it. And I'm much, I feel like I'm less angry about it. Even like, I'm not particularly; I don't feel particularly angry about it. It's just very frustrating and scary. (Pause) So, thanks.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: (Pause) I feel like it's getting easier not to hurt myself. So that's good.

THERAPIST: Very good.

CLIENT: (Pause) Yeah, I feel like I still think about it. That's still where my mind goes when I get anxious or upset. But there's less, it's less urgent. So. (Pause from [0:07:22.8] to [0:08:00.2]) It's very hard to train yourself out of the, of assuming that your parents are right. I don't know about you (chuckles) but for me that's very hard. Like, and you know, I know my dad's not right, ever. I disagree with him about everything. I was thinking specifically of, so, he did the thing, which in retrospect was exactly what I expected him to do. Which was, he started talking about-I think he came to visit me mostly because I wasn't doing very well. But he didn't talk about that until like, right before he left. Like we had lunch together at 1:30 and he got on the train at 2:30. (Laughter) And then he you know, talked about it a little bit. He like mentioned my being depressed. But, he said, "I think you're doing much better than you were at Christmas." [0:09:11.4]

Which I didn't take that very well. (Laughter) I don't know, I mean, I feel like I'm doing much better in the last few days than I was a week ago. Much, much better. But, (Pause) I don't know, he's crazy. But I don't think his opinions are ever gonna not be important to me. (Pause) I said-I just got up to call-he said, "See you at Christmas. You wouldn't have been able to say that." Like, I don't know, I don't know, you're doing much better. There you are. (Pause) But, you know, I also don't remember what Christmas was like at all, so (chuckles) he may be right. I have a vague memory of having a really good visit with mom. And that's it.

(Pause from [0:10:32.1] to [0:10:48.0])

The other problem with memory loss is that like, I can't tell anybody about it. So, you know when people expect me to know something and I don't know it, I can't say, "I've had ECT and so I don't remember anything. So, like, I think people don't know what ECT is, like. You know, as with most things to do with depression, I feel vaguely like it's something I should be embarrassed about.

(Pause from [0:11:34.1] to [0:12:02.8])

We went to a party on Saturday.

THERAPIST: Oh?

CLIENT: Yeah, it was good. It was, you know, I spent all of Saturday fretting about going to a party, that was really fun. Of course.

THERAPIST: What party was it?

CLIENT: Oh, it's like, James has some friends from the University. A lot of people move into the area because there are just so many schools. So there were like, just three couples that were supposed to come other than us. Only two showed up, because one of them has a two year old, and he apparently was having a really bad day. Which is too bad because they're the couple, like, they're the people that we know the best and are the most comfortable with. [0:12:52.0]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But, it was good, it was really good. (Pause) Yeah, it's (Pause) I feel like I'm getting enough better that it's becoming easy for me to kind of turn off everything except the make pleasant conversation part of my personality. You know, I find that very easy. At least some times I do apparently. So.

(Pause from [0:13:37.6] to [0:14:00.3])

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think I'm just, I think a little bit that way to becoming you're-I'm thinking of your first thought about like, "well I had a good weekend, so I was worried that I wouldn't have anything to talk about. " (Laughter)

CLIENT: (Laughter) I worry about that a lot actually.

THERAPIST: About not having anything to talk about?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Huh. Well I guess I'm imaging that's what you were just saying about having a tough time-alright, I guess I have the thought that it maybe doesn't refer to what it seems like it would refer to? Which is that there just somehow wouldn't be things. But more that, doesn't feel right to make polite conversation, but also it, it's hard to sort of access or get in touch with the other things that you're feeling? [0:15:06.3]

CLIENT: Well it's a little-maybe, I guess what I'm-it's a little weird to me to talk to you when like horrible things aren't happening to me. (Laughter) It's like; I don't really know what to say.

THERAPIST: Sure. (Chuckle)

CLIENT: It's not like I don't have problems. It's not like I don't have things going on.

THERAPIST: Right. Maybe it's like there has to be a certain threshold of badness or desperation that you need to cross in order to feel like you can talk about those things.

CLIENT: Desperation makes sense.

(Pause from [0:15:54.1] to [0:16:06.5])

THERAPIST: With your-talking about the stuff with your dad, you seemed kind of closed. Like, you seemed to be starting to say that you were frustrated with him for not acknowledging your depression, I think. Like you sort of put the pieces right on the board next to each other-

CLIENT: Then just wandered off somewhere. (Chuckle)

THERAPIST: Yeah. And then, I would guess it's the same thing. Where it, I don't know if it's like it would be, you don't deserve to talk about that or be angry or you, (Pause) maybe like with him you just get the feeling you're not supposed to. [0:17:17.6]

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I know. I'm like, well, we talked about my dad on Friday. If I talk about him anymore then I'll just be boring. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) Also, it would pop up, you know, I'm working hard to, (Pause) to say, yes there are these problems. You know as we talked about the other day, that say like, this isn't a great relationship. Like, there are big problems here. There are things I really wish were different. They're not going to be different. There's not really anything I can do here. So to kind of, acknowledge that I wish things were different and then just put it down and walk away. You know, instead of beating my head about it, over it, over and over again. (Pause) Yeah.

(Pause from [0:18:56.3] to [0:19:22.3])

I'm not very good at that.

THERAPIST: At?

CLIENT: Putting things down and walking away when they bother me.

THERAPIST: I think you're really good at it.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Maybe we're probably talking in crisis. I would assume-

CLIENT: I mean, that we are talking about different things?

THERAPIST: Yeah, what do you have in mind?

CLIENT: I feel like I know people who can say like, yes this bothers me, yes this hurts me, but I know I can't do anything about it, so I'm just going to let it go. And I don't feel like I can do that.

THERAPIST: I see. Yes. I agree. Like, I'm not, I wouldn't disagree with that. It can be very hard because I think the reason is, to me it seems less like the reason is you don't happen to be somebody who's good at letting go of things. And more of that, there is just so, so much there. And so much of it I think often, kind of unacknowledged. Or rebranded to being something else.

CLIENT: Yeah, the acknowledging part seems to be important. (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: I think so.

CLIENT: Well obviously you think so. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Yes. That's true. (Chuckles) Right. Yes, that's true. I guess you got me there. (Laughter) (Pause) I mean I guess what I have in mind is something like, was it Friday morning? Am I getting my days right, that he didn't respond to your texts and was out at the coffee shop, and you had a really hard time-

CLIENT: He was just reading a book. [0:21:49.0]

THERAPIST: Right was just reading a book. Yeah, I mean that, like to me, that incident seems sort of like the tip of an iceberg. You know, but there's so much history and so much of the lot between the two of you. And let me tell you, it was hard for me to roll with it, and sure but I don't' think that's because you're somebody who can't roll with things. It's just like, there's so much going on there. This is my view of things.

CLIENT: No, I think you're right. I mean, (Pause) and I think it's not, (Pause) I think it's not unconnected to my feeling that Papa just used to ignore me. When it suited him for long periods of time. That like being acknowledged by my father is something that I don't really feel like I could count on ever. Like, how many times did he forget to pick me up from school. Like, that's a big deal for-

THERAPIST: How many times did he forget to pick you up from school? (Crosstalking)

CLIENT: I don't remember that. Oh, multiple. [0:23:10.2]

THERAPIST: Like once every few weeks? Or?

CLIENT: Ah, more like once every few months. I mean he was late at least once a week. He was like really late at least once a week. (Chuckle) But you know, he like showed up eventually. But eventually.

THERAPIST: What's really late?

CLIENT: Like, 45 minutes or more I think.

THERAPIST: So you were sitting there after school.

CLIENT: Yeah, they have a little like after school thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah, this is like probably well class plan where the other's parent's picked them up? Is that what that is?

CLIENT: Yeah and it was like you know, some of the kids parents arranged to not pick them up until later. So they had like a, I think it was kind of like play dates. So like, there weren't that many kids who just like their parent's just didn't show up. (Pause) Yeah, so you know, like feeling like I just get ignored, and not good enough.

(Pause from [0:24:29.3] to [0:24:55.0])

Also I think, you know, I was most afraid that he would be upset with me. That he would not call me back and it would be somehow something that I had done. I'm not exactly sure how that is possible. But I'm sure it happened. (Chuckle)

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, if, I don't know. You know, I did say that I was going to come out and meet him and then said that I couldn't. So you know, I would be the one who didn't show up. Although, in retrospect, it's a good thing that I didn't go out and meet him because he was at a different -there are two locations, (crosstalk) and he was at the other one. And he didn't tell me that he was at the other one.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: So I would have just gone (laughter) and he wouldn't have been there anyway. (Laughter) Also the other one is like half and hour walk away. He like to walk. [0:25:59.5]

THERAPIST: Yeah, right. He was at the one on the other side of the square.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, which is, I mean better anyway. I like that one better. I don't know.

(Pause from [0:26:11.8] to [0:26:31.3])

You know, I mean that, I still sort of feel like, the degree to which I was upset is-like I was more upset than any of the pieces that I can figure out, really account for. So I feel like I'm not seeing something, or not taking account of something. (Pause)

THERAPIST: You mean, one of the pieces I remember to have been, you were worried he had another stroke.

CLIENT: Yeah? But I wasn't that worried about that. Or I don't think that I was that worried about that, that is, you know. (Pause) Mostly because like, his not responding and his not, just disappearing is so regular, I feel like that I don't worry too much that he's had another stroke because he just does that all the time. (Chuckle) [0:27:48.8]

THERAPIST: Right, the arm hurts or (inaudible)

CLIENT: The exact same thing happened the day he came. That one turned out to not be his fault mostly I think. Because he was on an airplane, but he was like two hours late, for showing up. Like he didn't show up for like two hours past when he, when his flight was supposed to get in and didn't contact us at all. [0:28:16.3]

THERAPIST: The flight was delayed?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. He could have texted. But then it didn't show up online. He'd sent us the flight number and so I looked it up online and it said the flight was not delayed. So, I thought that something was wrong and didn't know where he was. [0:28:40.9]

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: (pause from [0:28:39.2] to [0:29:33.0]) So to maybe change the subject somewhat. Alright, a little bit. So I've been thinking about, you know you've talked about acknowledging things a lot. That's great, which is good. I've been thinking about it a lot. I feel like this, I feel like with the memory loss, that it's something that's coming to be really important. That, I'm in this, I'm in this situation of like, James is kind of done talking about it. My dad is definitely done talking about it. I'm not done talking about it. (Chuckle) Like I'm not done with it bothering me. Like it, and so part of me wants to say, well, you know I should do what James and my dad want and just let it be. You know, just not talk about it. Not think about it. Then I'm like no, this is still, this is still happening to me. [0:30:54.5]

THERAPIST: Right. Actually, can you give me just one minute? I'm sorry, I'll be back. (door opens and closes)

(Pause from [0:30:59.8] to [0:32:35.8])

(Door opens and closes)

THERAPIST: Sorry about that.

CLIENT: That's fine.

THERAPIST: So, you're not done talking about it, they're done talking about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, sorry I'm going to have to talk to you a lot about it. (Chuckle) (Pause)

THERAPIST: Was there something else? It sounded like you were also I would say, unsure how to handle that with them?

CLIENT: I am unsure how to handle that with them.

THERAPIST: But you are also warning me?

CLIENT: That I'm, yeah -

THERAPIST: That I'm going to hear-

CLIENT: I guess so. Yeah, I guess I am. [0:33:17.3]

THERAPIST: You must worry that I'm done talking about it too.

CLIENT: Yeah, I do. I do. (Pause) Because it's not like I have much to say about it. It just, it just sucks. I'm pissed off. You know. Every day I find new things that I don't remember. And, you know, new pieces of my life that I have to kind of put back together. (Pause) It's sort of like, of course James is done talking about it. I don't want him to respond in any way, I just want him to nod. (Chuckle) And like, I don't, that's not a conversation. I don't want to ask that of him. [0:34:18.3]

THERAPIST: You want him to know in an ongoing way how much it matters to you, how much it is affecting you. I think.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah I do. But not at the, (Pause) not at the price of you know, (Pause) of the you know, kind of unfruitful conversations that it leads to. You know, because he doesn't necessarily agree with me all the way about everything. And he's not the sort of person who can just listen to me rant and not tell me what he thinks. Nor do I want him to be that sort of person. [0:35:12.5]

THERAPIST: How does that relate to the memory loss though? I mean, like, my impression of when you described it was that he's kind of sick of hearing about it.

CLIENT: I think he's a little sick of hearing about it. But there's also like, you know, he's-he'll listen to me, if I bring it up because he's nice that way. (Chuckle) But

THERAPIST: That's good.

CLIENT: I think it would-yeah it is good. But it bothers him for example, like, when I say I don't think these memories are ever going to come back. Like, I'm not going to get this back. He doesn't think I should say that. The says, well, you know, by saying that, he thinks comments like that re a self-fulfilling prophecy. Which I don't know how that would work. But then I get frustrated with him, but like, he'll-I don't think that they are. Like, it's something that I want to talk about it a lot. But it's also something I'm very sensitive about. So if he doesn't agree with me absolutely about everything then you know, I get touchy, then he gets touchy, and it just isn't worth it.

(Pause from [0:36:59.1] to [0:37:19.1])

You know, even when, like if he sees me upset because I don't remember something, which is at least once a day. He says, it'll be okay. Which is both that's nice-

THERAPIST: You want to punch him.

CLIENT: (chuckle) And yes, that. (Chuckle) Like well maybe, it will be okay, but it's not okay. For once, I don't want to say its okay.

(Pause from [0:37:46.8] to [0:38:06.0])

I just can tell that it's going to be so easy for me to start thinking that all of this is my fault. And I don't want to go there and that's how I, that's how I deal with problems like this usually. And I don't want that. (Pause) So now I feel like saying, everything will be okay, or its okay. And it jumps to well, it's not okay, it must be my fault. I'm not exactly sure how that happens. But I feel like that's a conclusion that I make. [0:38:47.8]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think so too. (Pause)

CLIENT: So there's this supper at church, this wasn't the first time that they've done that, they did it like a month ago, apparently. I went to that, apparently. (Chuckles) I you know, a lot of things, you know, someone will remind me and I will remember it. So most people's names, once I got a reminder, I said, oh yeah, of course you're so-and-so, I know you. But this, no. I don't remember it at all. Like, I do the same thing over again I still don't remember it at all. I had this whole long conversation with somebody that apparently I had a long conversation with last time because she knew all these things about my life. (Chuckles) I don't remember that at all.

(Pause from [0:39:48.7] to [0:40:16.0])

Yeah, it feels like the ground just like kicks out underneath me periodically throughout the day. (Pause) You know, sometimes it's important and sometimes it's not important. Mostly it's not important. Or, mostly it's not, mostly it's not stuff that not knowing will actually get me in trouble, right now. But sometimes it is.

(Pause from [0:40:49.9] to [0:41:46.0])

You know, I don't know whether my memory will come back.

(Pause from [0:41:47.8] to [0:42:00.1]) (Whispers) It doesn't feel like it.

(Pause from [0:42:04.1] to [0:43:36.4])

CLIENT: Okay, so here's something that's been worrying me. If I moved to San Antonio, would you be willing or able to keep working with me through Skype?

THERAPIST: Sure. Yeah. (Pause) Yeah, I mean, (Pause) let's see, what would the differences be.

CLIENT: You couldn't record the sessions obviously. I'm sorry. (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: It's okay. Yeah, I'm not sure if that would work or not. (Pause) And I'd have to look at, I'd have to look, if it were an ongoing thing, I'd have to look in to the legal part of it.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. [0:44:34.7]

THERAPIST: If it's for a short period of time, there wouldn't be anything. But I know in some states I think you can do that, and with others, for psychologists you are licensed by state usually.

CLIENT: Oh, okay, that must be fun.

THERAPIST: So yeah. (Pause) You know if there's some easy route, easy way for me to handle the licensure, (inaudible) I would be able to do that. But I'm not sure what the way of-

CLIENT: Okay, thanks. [0:45:10.1]

THERAPIST: Sure. Do you want me to look in to that?

CLIENT: Well I probably should get a job first. (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I just, you know, I'm thinking ten steps ahead and just anxious about it.

THERAPIST: Sure. (Pause) I wonder if it put you off talking more about some of the memory stuff that I didn't have much to say in response to what you were saying about it? (Pause) And that made you feel, I can imagine that made you feel like you are kind of nearing the end of my interest or (crosstalk) or is important as everything else.

CLIENT: Well, I wasn't, it's kind of like I had sort of run out of things to say. I also had just told you that I wasn't, that when I talk about it with James I'm not really looking for him to say anything. I just want to talk. So I was like, well maybe he thinks he can't say anything. (Laughter) I was like, that's silly Tanya, Kyle would never think that. And this was something that I've been, that's been worrying me a lot. [0:46:40.8]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: (Pause) So, maybe a little bit, but not too much.

(Pause [0:46:51.8] to [0:47:23.2])

THERAPIST: You did say that there is like, a lot of you've been relating it to some of those important kinds, that involve mostly that just wanting to know that somebody knows and is taking it in. And appreciates how much whatever it is matters, without necessarily having all that much to say about it. Which doesn't necessarily mean that I won't about the memory stuff, but (Pause) I guess maybe partly I bring that up because I'm not sure how familiar that is for you. [0:47:54.1]

CLIENT: How do you mean?

THERAPIST: (Pause) Talking to people, even for a while about something that matters to you, not necessarily because you want or expect kind of their thoughts, their solutions, their perspective. But just because you want them to know, and to know that they do, because it's important to you. [0:48:30.2]

CLIENT: (Pause) Yeah. (Pause) So on the one hand I, yeah, I find that I, there is stuff that I just really want to talk about to people. (Pause) On the other hand, there's a lot of stuff that I just don't feel like its okay to talk about with people. And much of that is the stuff that's most important to me.

THERAPIST: We should stop for now. (inaudible)

CLIENT: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT