TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Twelve Kleenex; my allergies seem to have decided (laughter) they’re here.

CLIENT: That’s not fair, it’s still cold out. (laughter)

THERAPIST: I tried to bring that up with them. (laughter) (pause) Important that I (dictate) (ph). (laughter) Good morning.

CLIENT: Good morning. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about friendships, and like what does it mean to be a friend, or to have a friendship, right? [0:01:04] Because I mean part of it is, like I’m hanging out with Yvonne tonight, because we’ve been friends for so long, right? But we don’t have almost anything in common anymore. We met through an Internet community. I’m used to wearing long sleeves (anyway) (ph).

THERAPIST: Got you; yeah.

CLIENT: And like for awhile, we had lot of common interests, and we’re both doing feminist activacy things, and we were both in the process of leaving the church, and trying to figure out what this church (body) (ph) would like if we’re not in the church anymore.

Now she does like feminist activism and writing professionally, since that’s her job. And I have all but walked away from that, especially online activism, because it’s just – it’s toxic; it really is. There was a blow-up a couple of months ago that Yvonne was in the middle of; I don’t know if you follow this sort of thing on the Internet. [0:02:19]

THERAPIST: No,

CLIENT: So [] is a professor of feminism at one of the universities; I don’t remember, and I don’t care which. Like not one of the big famous ones. And he was a very famous Internet (presence) (ph). But the thing is, he believed women of color, pretty viciously online.

A lot of the big name moneymaking white feminists, who gets paid to write for (inaudible at 0:02:53). And like what’s her name; I can’t even remember her first name; it doesn’t matter; they’re all horrible human beings. They all care about like making their money, instead of actually doing anything that will make a difference.

THERAPIST: So like sell-out activist or something?

CLIENT: They’re what?

THERAPIST: Like a sell-out activist?

CLIENT: Yeah. And like they bullied friends of mine, and they’re just horrible. But they all backed up this guy, and he bullied woman after woman who told him he was being gross. Well, (chuckle) as it turns out, he attempted to murder his girlfriend. Then information came out that he had raped several of his students taking class. And I was like -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But people were still taking his side and defending him, and saying that we should forgive him, because he’s repented, and blah, blah, blah and all this like gross misuse of Christian language. It was just – anyway, so that’s online feminist activism morals, and I won’t be a part of it, because it’s a giant waste of time and energy. [0:03:59]

But Yvonne is still in the middle of it; she’s getting paid for it; she’s doing it professionally. She has to deal with these people, because they’re her colleagues, even though they’re horrible to her and she hates them. There’s not – and she’s very much involved in the like religious world; she goes to conferences, and gives talks at these conferences.

I mean it’s great for her career, but again that’s not my world, and so it’s – and meanwhile, over here, I’ve been getting into publishing, and editing, and writing, and certainly with a feminist (inaudible at 0:04:41), I do work on activacy stuff within the context of the publishing world.

But it’s very different, so when we get together, it’s – she wants to dish gossip on like the horrible people on the mailing list. And I have no context for that. Then she asks me what’s going on with my publishing stuff, but she has no context for that. [0:05:08]

It’s this horrible disconnect, and we haven’t actually had a shared interest in like five years. Hanging out with her isn’t any fun. So I’m just wondering, (sigh) what am I doing here? Or for a less emotionally (inaudible at 0:05:26) example, years and years ago, when I was dating Phil, Phil’s housemate had this friend Brady that she introduced me to.

Brady and I hung out a couple of times, but he was in law school, and neither of us had a whole lot of time. Then I moved to Germany, then I moved to North Carolina, and we kind of fell out of touch. Then earlier this year, that was a big (inaudible at 0:05:49) in January, we ran into each other again, and we’re like, “Oh hey, this is cool. We should like totally get together.”

Then I reached out to him; I left him a message on his blog, and then he sent me an e-mail, and we e-mailed back and forth a couple of times. We got together after dinner, and like (pause) it was pretty clear he was so harboring a crush on me from like ten years ago. Now he keeps asking me out on things that like he’s very careful not say data, but he’s pretty clear that’s what he wants.

I feel guilty saying no, because I was enthusiastic about reinitiating our friendship like four months ago, but now it’s like hanging out with him tonight (inaudible at 0:06:32), because he’s kind of boring. He (sigh) doesn’t have anything to talk about, except gossip about the people in his lives. And certainly with friends of mine, we talk about our other friends sometimes; Vanessa and I have talked about the whole (Kimberly) (ph) situation, [and it’s an item] (ph) it feels like. But like there’s – that’s not all we talk about, right?

There’s also – we talk about current events; we talk about books we’ve read; we’ve talked about – yeah. I don’t know, it just feels like (pause)

THERAPIST: Sounds like you enjoy that with Vanessa.

CLIENT: Yeah, Vanessa is great. I wish she would move here, which might even be thinkable; she got tenure, which means it’s much easier for her to move and find a job, since she can just about be hired with tenure. Although there aren’t all that many jobs anywhere for her field. But – (pause)

(inaudible at 0:07:42), like Brady is just – and maybe this is a little snobbish and a little elitist, but there’s a level of just intellectual rigor I expect from my friends. But not expected; that I’ve gotten used to, and he’s not – he’s a (inaudible at 0:08:02). I’m a (chuckle) horrible person, but I feel guilty about telling him I don’t want to spend time with him. And I don’t – I want not to feel guilty when I think, like I don’t owe him my time. But I feel like I do in some ways. (pause) Because I was the one who left a comment on his blog, saying, “Yeah, we ran into each other at a bar; we should probably get together again.” (pause) [0:09:05] (pause)

Or maybe, an example that Fields equally frocks me, although coming from the other direction, it’s Raheem’s partner Matilda, and Matilda’s quite with Uma. Often four lovely people, but when we do hang out, we seem to enjoy each other’s company. Or I certainly enjoy there’s; I hope that do mine.

But I don’t know how to go from like your people I know, because we have this mutual friend in common, to you’re actually my friends now too. It just feels really weird, and awkward, and I don’t know where the line is between like, this is a reasonable number of times to invite them over for dinner, or to hang out for coffee, versus like, “No, you’re a creepy stalker and you need to stop.”

THERAPIST: I see. [0:10:23] (pause)

CLIENT: I feel like I missed Social Skills 101 in elementary school. Like I just wasn’t there [overlapping conversation at 0:10:48) for class that day

THERAPIST: You said that; yeah.

CLIENT: All of this stuff about starting new friendships, or letting friendships end; I don’t know how to manage.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause) [0:12:00] (pause) [There’re opportunities] (ph) that you feel (pause) some of this is driven I think, by your feeling like pretty in the dark about sort of tacit social signaling people do?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is it getting to sunny over there?

CLIENT: A little bit, yeah.

THERAPIST: Is it just this one, you think?

CLIENT: Well, it’s that one actually; it’s reflecting off that glass building – [background noise at 0:12:48:00].

THERAPIST: I got you; it’s not that one.

CLIENT: No. Yeah, no; the one behind me is fine.

THERAPIST: Right, yeah.

CLIENT: Thank you. [0:13:00]

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:13:02).

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:13:03). (laughter)

THERAPIST: (background noise) These are cure for the allergies anyway.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughter)

THERAPIST: So, yeah, (pause) I mean that you feel kind of in the dark, in that – well then that’s more complicated than that, I think. I think you assume that other people really get that stuff often as well; but you don’t.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that like Lucy (pause) if you kept inviting her, like she could be rolling her eyes saying, “Oh my God, hasn’t she got the hint yet?”

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or, you know, already be feeling like, “I’m [going to get] (ph) a friend independently of yours.” And was not getting why you wouldn’t get that already. [0:14:08]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But you don’t know.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: (pause) Then I guess with Brady, it’s a little different. I don’t know if it feels like he should have taken the hint; like you’ve given him hints he should have taken already.

CLIENT: I don’t think I have.

THERAPIST: I see. It’s more like -

CLIENT: I think I’m just receiving a mass of resentment around him at this point, which is, you know, not healthy.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And like, he’s not a bad guy; there’s nothing wrong with him. I’m happy to invite him to my parties, or hang out with him in groups; it’s just the one-on-one hanging out is boring and awkward. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like he’s not fun.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You don’t enjoy him.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s not that he’s a dick.

CLIENT: He hasn’t done anything wrong, but – [0:15:06] (pause)

THERAPIST: And the only alternatives that seems like you see are either to suck it up and play along, or to kind of reject him in some way that you imagine would be pretty horrible for him. And also, in a way, mean of you, because (pause) you sort of [coughing at 0:15:44] about things before. You partly initiated -

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [0:16:44] (pause)

THERAPIST: I think it gives me also the sense that like (pause) I think I (love) (ph) dread around this kind of stuff. [0:17:44]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And the sense is like, this is just not going to end well. Somebody; me, you, or probably you, but maybe somebody else, is going to get really hurt.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: This is just a bad situation, even in a sense when he’s like (pause) like in any of these situations, is there something externally obviously catastrophic like we’ve had. But, yeah, this was kind of like sort of dread, I think, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [0:18:45] (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess it means mostly about people getting kind of socially hurt.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: Like in a show of like these crime scenes with this chalk outline; interaction in a bad way.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [0:19:45] (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, it’s more than that. I think I’d also feel that it could have probably an inevitable, like either you’re going to be pretty miserable, and he may be tortured as well. It may end your friendship with him, or you’re really going to hurt him terribly.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And also, (inaudible at 0:20:12).

CLIENT: Yeah. Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah; absolutely. I’m not saying those are necessarily the things that are going to happen, but – (pause)

CLIENT: Or like with Yvonne, I didn’t invite her to my birthday party, because I knew Matilda wanted to come, and they don’t want to be at the party with each other, which is totally reasonable.

THERAPIST: Matilda is Yvonne’s partner – ex-partner’s shrink, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. I was like, I enjoy Matilda and Uma’s company more than Yvonne’s. But I know Yvonne was very hurt by that, and expected that I would invite her and not invite Matilda, because we’ve been friends longer. But like (pause) I would like Matilda more.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [0:21:07]

CLIENT: And if I didn’t invite Matilda, Uma wouldn’t have come, and I wanted to see Uma. If Uma didn’t come, Lucy wouldn’t have come, and really really wanted to see Lucy. And like – (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Honestly like any one of those three by themselves are more interesting to have in a group setting; they’re just more interesting conversationalists; more engaged, and more extroverted, and I wanted my party to be fun. (chuckle) I didn’t want to be worried about sad, depressed, going through a divorce friend who has nothing to talk about except trauma and online feminist activism.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I felt crushingly guilty, even though this was my decision that I made, and that by all rights, I get to decide who comes to my birthday party and who doesn’t.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But Yvonne was very hurt by it, and she didn’t yell at me or cause drama, but she did ask what was up with that, and what you guys said. Well like you and Matilda. Matilda is very (inaudible at 0:22:16) Lucy, and like “Yaaah.” Like Yvonne’s face just fell, and she was very polite about it, but she was also very obviously hurt by it. (sigh) I feel really guilty. (pause)

THERAPIST: I don’t know what’s going on there, because (pause) I mean I got that you feel very responsible for her, I mean Yvonne. [0:23:21]

CLIENT: Ah-huh. (pause)

THERAPIST: And also there’s like, she would be feeling okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. Which is clearly not the case.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean you describe her as pretty much a rat.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And having a very hard time and really sad. (pause) Yeah, somehow it feels like you’ve done it. I mean in that moment, and you were like, I don’t mean to say I think you’re taking responsibility over all of her depression; clearly you’re not.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) [0:25:00]-[0:26:00] (pause)

THERAPIST: (sigh) You know, and some of the – you know what kind of occurs in a lot of this is – is like this pariah thing maybe, where somebody is almost certainly a social pariah. And then there’s this sort of thickening dread about when that person finds out.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Especially if that person’s going to be you. But anyway, it feels like just kind of, you know, (pause) I’m thinking sort of like the office, tens of thousand, kind of like anxious cringing like, “Oh shit.” Dreadful, social, awkward thing where Yvonne finds out that she’s the pariah, and is devastated. [0:27:36]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you’ve done it. So you feel like shit.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: Or with (pause) you know like the Lucy, and Matilda and -

CLIENT: Uma.

THERAPIST: Uma. Thank you.

CLIENT: The (inaudible at 0:28:09) circle of like nerdy lesbians, that extends also to Lori and Career for a partner in a social circle.

THERAPIST: Right, and Lori, I mean Lori even -

CLIENT: Friendships are forever.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you guys have been really close for a long time. And I’m sorry, what was the other one?

CLIENT: Career.

THERAPIST: Career. Okay. And Lori is in Montana?

CLIENT: Yeah. And all the rest of them are here. (pause) I wouldn’t have met – well, I would have met Lucy, because I met her via Tracy, but I wouldn’t have met Matilda and Uma except via Lori. (pause)

THERAPIST: But I have like – you’re pretty worried you’re going to find out you’re the social pariah here?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They’re cool (inaudible at 0:29:09) lesbians and you’re just not going to cut it?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, I think it will be nice [having a thing] (ph) probably, but (pause)

CLIENT: But I mean it’s silly, right? Like, Saturday Uma invited me to brunch with her and her boyfriend, who is visiting from Europe. So, there for in the service; he’s stationed there until July, and then he’s back in Baltimore for the next two years after that. He’s in town to visit Uma.

So Uma organized brunch for her local friends to meet him, and invited like five people and included me. So she wouldn’t have done that out of a sense of obligation; it was a small enough group that I would never have found out about it, and have my feelings hurt, much less have any brain to be hurt if I didn’t know about it.

Clearly, she wanted to hang out with me, but I felt an almost anxiety around like are we actually friends? Is it okay for me to invite her over for dinner? Yeah. [0:30:20] (pause)

THERAPIST: I can imagine the tone is like, what if this is the time you find out? Or this is the time you do the thing that shows her that she really does not want to be friends with you?

CLIENT: Right. What if she feels about me the way I feel about Brady or Yvonne?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) I think you had told me before that I might feel this way about you? [0:31:42]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like I’m your therapist, and I get paid and da-da-da, but if it weren’t for that, I’d just (clap) be out of here like that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I could imagine that there are times that that’s something you’re kind of sitting here with.

CLIENT: Right. I mean that’s a little bit different, because we’re not friends. But it’s like professional boundaries here, like you don’t have with your friends, presumably.

THERAPIST: (laughter) Yeah sure.

CLIENT: That would be really weird if you did. (laughter) (pause)

THERAPIST: Right. So I guess that means in a way, you don’t have to worry about it in a single day.

CLIENT: Oh right. I mean I still worry that I’m boring, or hopeless, or pathetic, but that’s different than what is the nature of our relationship, because that at least is very clearly defined here, right?

THERAPIST: Well, (pause) Yes, I think, I mean I know what you’re referring to; I’m (inaudible at 0:32:56). (pause) I get to the place, I could imagine it might crop up for you, and maybe it does; maybe it doesn’t, is like hey, this is kind of the stuff that you were saying, you know, imagining a personal reaction I’m having to you, and keeping quiet about it.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That, you know, maybe someday you’ll stumble on, or maybe you won’t, but will have been thinking that way for a long time, where I know you’re the pariah, or whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [0:33:53]

THERAPIST: I guess my point really is, (pause) it is painful and shitty to feel like, you know, it’s not – it sounds like most of what you focus on, there is like dimension to things here, and those are ways at time you feel.

CLIENT: Mm-mm. (pause) [0:35:00] (pause)

THERAPIST: And there’s something else there too, I think, which is (inaudible at 0:35:29) is oftentimes that doesn’t necessarily look badly to the person, like you know, if Lucy decided she doesn’t want to hang out with you, or something like that, or in your worries that she doesn’t. I don’t get the sense that you think of her as a bad person, or she being a jerk. I mean it might be that she had been a jerk, but that’s not necessary.

Or with me, you know, that feeling to me is like she’s just too cool for you, we just got to realize that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That she doesn’t want to deal with you, and kind of doesn’t have to, because she’s got it together or whatever. (pause) And that feels also kind of shitty.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:36:33] (pause)

THERAPIST: We should stop now.

CLIENT: Yeah, thank you.

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