TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Hi.

THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: I had a really good visit with Ashley (sp?). It was really nice. I'm sort of like now, "I don't want to talk to anybody every again." (laughs) People are exhausting. So we just kind of talked for two days straight and I was just like no, I don't want to be around anybody else ever. (laughs) I had another tutoring job. It's Latin, which will be fun. I like Latin. I'm really anxious and I can't quite figure out why. [00:01:05]

THERAPIST: As of when-ish?

CLIENT: Kind of when I woke up this morning. I was sort of anxious all day yesterday, also. Today it's been hard to settle to do anything.

THERAPIST: When did Ashley leave?

CLIENT: Yesterday afternoon. It feels like it would be easier if people didn't really care about me, because then I wouldn't have to be the person that they cared about. (pause) [00:02:05] I don't know why. It's not supposed to feel like a lot of pressure, but it feels like a lot of pressure. (crying)

THERAPIST: It sounds like it a tremendous pressure, like crushing pressure.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. (sniffling) I have to say, "No, it's okay that you forgot to take the letter to the post office before therapy. That's okay. You can just go back and take another trip." It's like I can't do anything right. (crying) (pause) [00:03:07] I told this guy I'd talk to him at 1:00 because I thought we were meeting at noon. He said, "No, after 1:30." We meet at the same time every week. (laughs) (pause) (crying) [00:04:03]

THERAPIST: It sounds like the crushing pressure out there is about being the person who can handle posting the letter or remembering someone's therapy appointment or probably by noon. Those were the two you mentioned. The crushing pressure in here is about you shouldn't be doing that to yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, in part.

THERAPIST: Which is true, in a way. It would be better if you didn't, but I think you also feel like you did something really wrong. [00:04:59]

CLIENT: Yeah, but also I'm pretty upset and so I feel like I need to explain why I'm upset or be able to talk about it or be able to figure it out. I don't think I can. (crying)

THERAPIST: You mean with me?

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah, but I don't believe you. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That's okay, too. Still true, but...

CLIENT: (pause) Sorry, I think I just need to cry for a minute.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Maybe more than a minute. [00:06:10]

CLIENT: (crying) (pause) Do people care about me so much? (crying)

THERAPIST: I think that makes things extremely difficult. We can figure out why later.

CLIENT: (laughs) (crying) (pause) [00:07:27] I don't understand why they're so nice to me. I can't keep up my end. (crying) (pause) I'm working really hard not to apologize to you every thirty seconds, by the way. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Noted. (pause) [00:08:33]

CLIENT: Ashley seems really happy, which is great. She was really unhappy for a long time. I think her first two years at college just were really, really hard and so it's nice to see her kind of it looks like she's going to really have a place in the world and has things she likes to do and she has about clothing, which is really fun. (laughs) She's like super into it. She talks about it all the time.

THERAPIST: The blog?

CLIENT: Yes. Apparently it's the business, like itself.

THERAPIST: Does she work in...?

CLIENT: No, but I think she needs to. She works in a hospital as an assistant.

THERAPIST: Is she up to a doctor or...? [00:09:28]

CLIENT: No, she's like a secretary; but, frankly, she's just way too smart for her job. She's real, real smart. She talks about full-bust and plus-size clothes and it's just a really, really underserved market and hard to figure out and people are mean to you. She's just really into it. It's great. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Right. I've heard about that physical...

CLIENT: Yeah, it's ridiculous. I'm not like a freakishly-sized person and I have to buy all of my bras online. I can't go to a department store; I can't go to any store, basically. It sucks. And I have to buy them online from like Europe; and that really sucks because then you can't return it or returning it is like as expensive as the bra itself. [00:10:34]

THERAPIST: Right, so what's the point? Right.

CLIENT: I think she needs to open a store.

THERAPIST: That's one of those things where capitalism, for some reason, doesn't seem to be working. I don't understand.

CLIENT: (laughs) Exactly. Yes. There are a whole lot of women who are just used to people in stores telling them that they are the ones at fault because their bodies are the wrong size; as opposed to the store that doesn't stock the sizes that they are. It's getting better. I think she will, eventually, but I think it will take her a couple more years. She's just really happy doing this and that's fantastic. Yeah, it's really neat. [00:11:35]

THERAPIST: Sounds good. Where is she?

CLIENT: She's in Illinois.

THERAPIST: In the city?

CLIENT: Yeah. She lives in Chicago, I think, but kind of out in the boonies somewhere. I don't know. I don't know the geography of it at all. From her stories, I'm never going there again. (laughing) I couldn't do that. I like it here, where everybody is just really introverted and pretends that no one around them exists. I'm okay with that. (laughs) Like no matter how crowded it gets on the "T", everybody is just politely imagining that they're alone. I'm good with that. [00:12:27] I think she likes it there pretty well and she finally started online dating a year or so ago, maybe two years ago. Dating is I don't think she's ever had a boyfriend. I'm not sure what to say about that. Gerry and Ashley's parents are tricky. Their mom I love their mom. She's been my substitute mother for me in a lot of ways, for better or for worse. (laughs) She's already told me the night before my wedding that I really needed to have a caterer and I really needed to change the way that I was doing everything, like all of the food. (laughs) [00:13:34]

THERAPIST: It sounds like it's something that made you laugh.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was great.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:13:38)

CLIENT: Oh, dear. [...] (inaudible at 00:13:41).] (pause) Yeah, so it was really nice. We made a duck.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Did I tell you about that already? (laughs) It was amazing. It's my new favorite thing to make because it's really easy and it turns out deliciously. You didn't do anything, but it looks like you worked really hard. [00:14:25] (long pause) [00:15:18] She left and now it's like I don't know. Maybe it's like I don't have much to focus on, other than being anxious. I don't know. (pause) I got an e-mail from one of my friends today. I haven't read the e-mail yet. I've been avoiding it. [00:16:10]

THERAPIST: Wait, sorry from...?

CLIENT: From one of my friends from school.

THERAPIST: Oh That's right. When you said it the other day I was like, "Shit. She just told me what it meant." [...] (inaudible at 00:16:19)

CLIENT: (laughs) (pause) You can see the first line of the e-mail before you open it. I know it came today, so it's not like I've been leaving it. I was just like, "Well, I will not deal with that right now," because he's somebody I really like and somebody who's really nice. He'll probably say, "Hey, let's get together for coffee," and I'll have to do it and sometimes I want to and other times I really, really don't. (sighs) (crying) (pause) With Ashley, at least, I don't have to do the whole what's a polite way of saying what I've been up to the last few months? [00:18:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know her well enough to say.

CLIENT: Yeah. She gets making up things. Like I told her about the ECT and how I have this memory loss and she was like, "Oh, so if I tell you you did something you'd believe me, right?" (both laugh)

THERAPIST: It seems like it's something somebody would say, but she's the first person who I heard you describe.

CLIENT: I think James suggested that also and I was like, "No, you cannot do that to me." He was like, "Okay." But yeah. I was like, "Where did this come from?" and she said, "Oh, the present. I gave that to you. Don't you remember?" (laughs) "Thank you." Yeah. Everything she said, it was very clear that she was joking as she said it, otherwise I would have to be like, "No, you really can't do that." (laughs) Like really not okay at all. And I was only sort of okay, as it was. It was like it was funny enough that it was funnier than it was painful, so I was just like, "Well, I'll just go with that." (laughs) [00:19:32] (pause) It was sort of like it was one of those "I really shouldn't be bothered by this, so I'm just going to pretend I'm not" sorts of things. Great. (laughs) But also genuinely funny, or I would have probably said, "No, I actually don't want you to do that." Probably.

THERAPIST: Well. You really have two strong reactions to it. One was the lack of [...] (inaudible at 00:20:30) and you really thought it was awful.

CLIENT: It's not awful, exactly. (laughs) Not quite there. But yeah, it sort of sucks. I found two clay sculpture things that, as far as I can tell, just appeared in our apartment sometime. I was like, "James, where did these come from?" He was like, "You made those in the hospital." (laughing) I was like, "Oh. They're really ugly. Can I throw them away?" He was like, "Sure." So they're gone. They'd been kind of sitting around for a while now and I went, "Huh. I wonder where those came from." [00:21:37] (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think for you, having to kind of hold it together socially in the moment like you're just describing with Ashley often has to mean forgetting or getting rid of the bad part.

CLIENT: Yeah. What do you mean by forgetting? [00:22:35]

THERAPIST: That's not really the right word. What I was thinking of was the way in which you have to be like, "Okay, that's funny; but it also really sucks. It just bothers and disturbs me every day that a bunch of stuff comes up that I can't remember." It's disorienting, it makes me feel out of control, and I'm sort of disturbed and angry about the ECT and..." I'm probably getting this a third right, but something along those lines. [00:23:28]

CLIENT: No, you've got it right. (laughs) It's empowering.

THERAPIST: And you're saying, "I'm going to stuff that inside the closet for now and laugh", which I think is also a genuine reaction.

CLIENT: No, I wouldn't have laughed if it wasn't funny. If it weren't for the fact that I'm so disoriented and angry and feel like I've lost a whole chunk of myself, if it weren't for all of that, my situation would be pretty hilarious; so it's sort of easy to laugh at it. Yeah. [00:24:35] I feel like I do that with anxiety also, like, "Oh, my friend, Ashley, is here. Now it's time to enjoy her company and laugh and talk a lot and catch up; and so all of the things that I'm worrying about, I'm just not going to deal with right now."

THERAPIST: I see. Like job stuff and money stuff. That also goes in the closet.

CLIENT: Yes. (pause)

THERAPIST: I think a lot of the pressure you refer to, when you say it's so much pressure to be around people who care about you, is [...] (inaudible at 00:25:46). I think there's pressure of the things like you [...], but it's worse when they're nice.

CLIENT: When the people are nice?

THERAPIST: Yeah. When they're caring and concerned.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I guess it probably makes you feel like you have less leeway and like they're inviting you. You have to be better because they're really treating you well and probably way better than you felt you deserved. You really have to sort of buck up. At the same time because they're nice and you can feel that they care about you, there's kind of an invitation... [00:26:43]

CLIENT: Like I can talk about it a little bit, but not that much. Yeah. Yeah. Once I talk about it a little bit, I just want to talk about it all of the time; but I can't do that. (laughs) I really can't do that.

THERAPIST: Here's the PG version, not like the X-rated horror-movie version.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:27:38] My dad got the job as the chaplain for next year, which is good. He told the people at the church that he was not going to be there next year before he heard back; that's good.

THERAPIST: That will be a whole different life for him, won't it?

CLIENT: Yeah. A career change. A real life change. They'll stay be living in the same place and he'll still have the boat. That's enough solidity for him. (laughs) I think it will be good, or he'll be good. It's another one of those conversations where he calls me up and talks, talks, talks, talks for about ten minutes and then says, "Okay. I'm going to go do this thing now." I just got into telling him that Ashley was here over the weekend; that was about all. (laughs) (pause) [00:29:33]

On Friday you said I was being pretty hard on myself. I was taking a moment to think about it. I think part of that is I feel like, "I can't actually fool Chad into thinking that I am this worthwhile person, but at least I can let him know that I don't think that, either." It's just easier to think it's funny that I'm a terrible person than to just think I'm a terrible person. [00:30:36]

THERAPIST: And they both are easier than to think it's terrible that you think you're a terrible person. The first one is that you probably...

CLIENT: I mean, I think so, but I'm not sure. What were you going to say?

THERAPIST: The first one is that it's funny to think you're a terrible person. The second one is just to think you're a terrible person. And the third one is that it's terrible to think you're a terrible person.

CLIENT: Like terrible of me or a terrible situation?

THERAPIST: A terrible situation, like bad. [00:31:31]

CLIENT: Yeah. I have a hard time even thinking about the third one. You say that and then I'm like, "I'm going to go think about something else now." (chuckles) I'm just going to pretend you didn't just say that. (pause) I don't remember ever not thinking I was a terrible person, so it feels a little bit like saying colonialism is a terrible thing. Yes, but what are we going to do about it? (laughs) [00:32:39] (long pause) [00:34:02] Yeah, I guess it feels like I wouldn't survive that. It feels like it would just be too much for me. (long pause) [00:36:01] I could be angry about it, but there's not really anything to be angry at. There's not really anyone that it's useful to be angry at. It's not really anybody's fault. [...] (inaudible at 00:36:41). (pause) Plus if I said, isn't it terrible that I think I'm a terrible person, that would sort of be saying that I'm not actually a terrible person and I just can't say that. (laughs) [00:37:17]

THERAPIST: [I follow.] (ph?)

CLIENT: It seems like I have a lot of [...] (inaudible at 00:37:35) invested in things in my life. (laughs) (sniffles) (pause) [00:38:06]

THERAPIST: I think it's one of the scariest things about other people, including me, treating you kindly or supportive, especially in your emotional life. It confronts you with the possibility that you're not so terrible as you think, which I think is very frightening. (pause) [00:39:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, but I have to be that person.

THERAPIST: Colonialism is an awfully interesting metaphor. [...] (inaudible at 00:39:13)

CLIENT: What made you say that?

THERAPIST: I don't know. I feel like it was kind of like a light bulb came on, like wait a minute. What the heck was it to you again? It is huge. I know that that was sort of your intent; but it's about the exploitation of the indigenous society for the benefit of the imperial power, right? Typically the suppression and repression in a lot of ways is like that as well. That sounds resonant in any number of possible ways here, being made to feel you're a terrible person. [00:40:43]

CLIENT: Do you mean that my feeling like I'm a terrible person serves other people in some way or serves myself in some way?

THERAPIST: I haven't really gotten that far. I'm sure that's there.

CLIENT: I sort of think colonialism is not the best metaphor because it sort of ended. I don't know whether it did actually end for sure; we're a post-colonial society so... (laughs)

THERAPIST: Are you saying like colonialism in this country?

CLIENT: I was thinking like "the sun never sets on the British empire" sort of colonialism. (pause) [00:42:18] I don't know. I guess it works in the sense that there's nothing you can do to make it not have happened. (pause) It really terrified me for you to say, "It's bad that you think you're a terrible person." You were like, "That's terrible." That scares me a lot. (pause)

THERAPIST: We should finish up for now. I'm sorry again about being late. I like keeping this late. We should probably tweak the time a little bit.

CLIENT: Okay.

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