1005146772_MA 4-8-13

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: [00:00:07] Hey.

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Um, (pause) so it has been a very busy sort of weekend. Hooray.

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Uh, but my former Latin teacher – Geoffrey [ph]...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...Was in town this weekend.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: So I went to lunch with him, which, you know, as [pleasant as we usually have] [ph], and it kind of turned into like a two and a half-hour lunch followed by a two-hour I was like, "Let's come to my apartment and have a cup of tea," and you know...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: ...So another two hours, so it was nice.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And then my friend Joshua from [inaudible] [ph] [in on me] [ph] last week, and so we had breakfast this morning. [00:01:00]

So two people it was really nice to see and also kind of rough. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah, Geoffrey more than Joshua...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...Because Joshua, I guess, is in it. Like he knows exactly why I left. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: He was there.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Um, and he is also somebody I feel comfortable talking to about, like "Well, you know, I was in the hospital a lot this winter," and (pause) things like that. And (pause) um, (pause) yeah, so I had, like, a really nice lunch with Geoffrey and then pretty much, as soon as he left, I started crying. [Chuckles] I wasn't really expecting that to be what happened, but I probably should have.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. [00:01:59]

CLIENT: Um, (pause) I feel like (pause) it is hard for me not to be bitter about this. Um, in some ways, it is hard for me not to be bitter about being here in the first place. I feel like most of the people who told me to come here were basing it on, "This is what this department was like 15 years ago."

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: "And it is really different now." And so Geoffrey, who is kind of based on, "This is what this department was like 30 years ago..."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Um, which, to be fair, was a golden age, I mean, in terms of just three to five of the best scholars ever in the field, like giants. [00:03:02]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And he (pause) (sighs) you know, now (pause) Joshua is teaching [Hebrew] [ph], but he is the only person in the department as far as I can think. I think there is one other person who has a teaching fellowship in within the department. Nobody else can find a job in the department.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Everyone else has to look go to other departments, basically.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Um, which is...

THERAPIST: It feels like (pause) like, uh, he is the only TF [ph] in the department.

CLIENT: Basically, um, that is what he said. [00:04:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think I think one other student is teaching one section or two I think the one section and that is it. Um, (pause) and it is not going to change as far as I can tell. Um, (pause)...

[Silence from 00:04:18 to 00:04:34]

CLIENT: Even my meeting with Professors[ph] he is my advisor when I told him I was leaving, was less than 15 minutes long. Um, like, he was just like, "OK, well, I'm sorry," and that was it, basically. I don't remember [inaudible at 00:04:52] but (pause)... [00:05:00]

[Silence from 00:05:01 to 00:05:29]

CLIENT: So then (pause) we talked about work. So Geoffrey retired two years ago, and the position at the school that I applied for was the position that he had held. Yeah, so, like, he retired, they replaced him, and then that guy left after two years.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: [So I'm coming back at the position] [ph]. But they specifically wanted they wanted somebody who could teach Latin and other things as well as Latin because they're [inaudible at 00:06:00] they're going to phase out Latin. [00:06:02]

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: Take out Latin because there just aren't enough students taking it. Everybody is taking Spanish and at least in other schools. I think it is still required in middle school.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But so, anyhow, we were chatting about that, and Geoffrey is good friends with the head of the Languages Department there, so he kind of [shoots them in] [ph]. He was saying you know, he was kind of talking about the other people who applied to that position. I was like, "I'm not going to get it." I was like, "I'm just not." I shouldn't get it. Um, (pause)...

THERAPIST: What? [Different up there] [ph]?

CLIENT: Oh, you know, they have one applicant who has a Ph.D. in Latin and the classics and a Ph.D. in chemistry. [Chuckles] [00:07:00]

You know, they have there is another former student of mine, who was a friend of mine, actually. She has a master's in classics and is or at least or maybe she had an undergraduate degree in classics and a master's in education, but she was at [inaudible at 00:07:14], also. She is great. They should hire her. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And (pause)...

THERAPIST: Because she has a master's degree, [inaudible at 00:07:27] it mean like, not that you aren't a great applicant, but...

CLIENT: ...But I'm just not that qualified for that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Um, (pause) yeah, I mean, I realize that I tend to be self-deprecating but that is not what this is.

THERAPIST: Great.

CLIENT: Um, (pause) so (pause)...

[Silence from 00:07:47 to 00:08:11]

[00:08:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, it was it was a hard conversation to have. Like, um, (pause) (sighs)...

[Silence from 00:08:26 to 00:08:35]

CLIENT: I did talk with James for a while about what we're going to do, and what he said was, "Well, if you want to teach, you should make that happen. You should figure out what you need to do." And, really, what I need to do is get a master's in education and figure out how to make that happen.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, I see people do it. (Pause) [00:09:00]

[Silence from 00:09:01 to 00:09:32]

CLIENT: I have been thinking a lot about Dave [ph].

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: (Pause) Um, (pause) well, I'm pretty angry at him. (Pause) Yeah, apparently, I'm angry at him because I keep [when I came to this school] [ph] and it didn't work out very well. [00:10:05]

THERAPIST: How is he to you? [inaudible at 00:10:17]?

CLIENT: Yeah, he he [went through] [ph] here and he really encouraged me to come here.

THERAPIST: ...Because he was going to [inaudible at 00:10:25] 15 years ago or something?

CLIENT: Yeah, except for the yeah, it was more like, I guess, ten years ago. But, yeah, (pause) and (pause)...

[Silence from 00:10:38 to 00:10:52]

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, (pause) it is like, every month or two, he kind of comes out [ph] and then I have to kind of go through all of that again. Anyway (pause)... [00:11:11]

I really just wish he hadn't said anything to me. (Pause) I guess (pause) yeah, he and [inaudible at 00:11:40] doctor graduated, but that doesn't really make much of a difference.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't [still want to do that] [ph], in my mind, at least. And (pause) I've (pause) I guess part of it is like I wish that I could still call him and ask him for advice. [00:12:08]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I can't do that anymore. (crying) (pause)

[Silence from 00:12:14 to 00:12:45]

CLIENT: So something that I is hard for me to talk about with you is (pause) you know, I'm sort of afraid you're going to fall in love with me. [00:13:01]

Not that I think you will, but that (pause) like you're this relationship that I with somebody that I really trusted and somebody who really took care of me, and (pause) (becomes emotional) then it changed, and I (starts to cry) (pause) and then I lost it and did horrible things and feel really bad about myself. (Pause) Um, (continues crying) (pause) I don't know how to talk to you about this. Um, (pause) (sniffles) (inhales)...

THERAPIST: Hmm. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:13:51 to 00:14:25]

[00:14:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I can imagine [inaudible at 00:14:32] (pause) you might be more worried about talking about it with me.

CLIENT: (Exhales) Yeah. [Chuckles] (pause) (says lowly) I am.

THERAPIST: Um, (pause) I don't know how [inaudible at 00:14:57], which is really (pause)... [00:15:00]

CLIENT: Um, part of me thinks that, if I bring it up, that will make it happen.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh?

CLIENT: Um, (pause) part of it (pause) is it is just an embarrassing thing to talk about. Um, (pause)...

THERAPIST: Mm.

[Silence from 00:15:30 to 00:15:36]

CLIENT: I guess that all this you know, I knew that he thought that I was attractive.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: Um, and I just figured that nobody would say anything, and it would go away, eventually, and it would be fine.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: Um, (pause) and I felt and I feel like that, if he hadn't said anything, it would have been fine.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: So, yeah, not saying anything seems better. [Chuckles] [00:16:04]

THERAPIST: I see. (Pause) If you bring it up, and he'll say something, whatever he says, and then [when you trouble] [ph] depending on your [inaudible at 00:16:23].

CLIENT: (Sniffles) (exhales) Yeah.

[Silence from 00:16:23 to 00:16:33]

CLIENT: Yeah, it is just I'm very scared for me.

THERAPIST: This particular boy [ph]?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: [You know, you know] [ph]. It is like I can't talk myself out of it over and over again. (sniffles)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It is the same (exhales) I tried to talk with James about (pause) why Geoffrey's visit had been hard for me after being [ph], and it was like he recognized that it was hard for me but he sort of felt that if he gave me all of the reasons why it shouldn't be hard for me, it would stop being hard, and that just made it worse. [00:17:19]

Um, and (pause) well, you know, it doesn't make it worse but it doesn't make it go away. Well, therapists probably have training for this in a way that teachers don't, for example. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Um, [chuckles] like, uh (pause) and (sighs) and so on and so forth.

THERAPIST: I see. So the analogy is that...

CLIENT: I've got to talk myself down.

THERAPIST: Right, in the same way that he tried to talk you down.

CLIENT: Yeah, (pause) mostly just yeah, ineffective. [00:18:02]

I mean, [I called and] [ph] it has calmed me down some, but it doesn't make it go away. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Hmm.

[Silence from 00:18:22 to 00:18:36]

CLIENT: And then there is I really want you to like me, like, I do, and (pause)...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm, [you're going to have to go there] [ph]?

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Just a little bit. [Chuckles] (Pause) [00:19:00]

[Silence from 00:18:48 to 00:19:04]

THERAPIST: One thing that does feel similar to me of other things that we've talked about is this very strong, very scary conviction you have about (pause) like, my [inaudible at 00:19:29] to handle you or...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...Not being able to handle (pause) how you get to me. I think that [inaudible at 00:19:42] how you worry about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, that is about right.

THERAPIST: Like how you're sort of...

CLIENT: [Chuckles] ...Tiring? [Chuckles] [Sniffles] Oh... [Chuckles] Just thinking good luck for [anything that is well] [ph] [Chuckles] [00:20:00]

THERAPIST: No...

CLIENT: [Laughs uncontrollably, emotionally]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Sorry. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: I don't think I'm...

CLIENT: (Recovering from laughter)

THERAPIST: I don't think I'm I don't have in mind the part of it that I imagine you're you have in mind, but...

CLIENT: [Chuckles] I know. I was like...

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: ..."He is choosing his words very carefully." [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: It is interesting. Like, (pause) 'cause what I was what I was going to say is how things like you're really sad or suicidal are disappointed feelings, uh, (pause) will (pause) like how you [inaudible at 00:20:52].

CLIENT: You're right. That was less funny than what I was thinking. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Yeah. [Chuckles] [00:21:01]

CLIENT: Sorry. Um, (pause) yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, my impression is that you were worried that I was going to (pause) say something about my developing an attraction to you that I couldn't manage, or that [we'd been in the wedding] [inaudible at 00:21:27]. And I guess, really, moreover would (pause) well, that kind of compassion I mean, [whether I don't know do you feel better just talking to you about it] [ph]? I guess that is the thing I...

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: ...Allegedly having trouble finding words for. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) [Becomes emotional) All that I just think is, "What did I do?" (Pause) [00:22:00]

[Silence from 00:22:01 to 00:22:13]

CLIENT: (Begins to cry) (Pause) Um, (pause) (sniffles) yeah, it feels like I don't know what it is about me that (pause) I makes people leave me or not be able to listen to me, or not be able to take care of me in ways that they say they will. But (continues to cry) (pause) (sighs) I feel like there must be something, but I can't tell, and so it could be anything.

THERAPIST: I see. (Pause) Uh-huh. [00:23:04]

CLIENT: (Continues to cry) (sighs) (pause)

[Silence from 00:23:08 to 00:23:20]

THERAPIST: Is it [inaudible at 00:23:20]?

CLIENT: Yeah, it is just scary that I could do everything exactly right and have doing everything exactly be the thing that causes me to lose somebody. (Pause) Um...

THERAPIST: Do you think that [makes sense] [ph]?

CLIENT: ...If that makes sense.

THERAPIST: Well, I understand in everything, but are you referring by that copy [ph]?

CLIENT: Yeah, (pause) I've lost [Dan and Franco] [ph] because I worked really hard and I was very smart, and he liked me. (Becomes emotional) That is why I lost him. [00:24:03]

Um, (pause) (continues to cry)

[Silence from 00:24:12 to 00:24:22]

THERAPIST: Um, (pause)...

CLIENT: I don't think that is actually why [he left] [ph], but (cries) that is what happened.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

[Silence from 00:24:30 to 00:24:42]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you're (pause) the worry and guilty about feeling like you were too much for him in some ways.

CLIENT: (Whispers) Yeah. [00:24:58]

THERAPIST: And really worried you will be (pause) I mean, in lots of ways, but today to do with like in my bond [ph] for you (pause), [inaudible at 00:25:24].

[Silence from 00:25:25 to 00:25:51]

THERAPIST: And, (pause) well, I think I can see how that idea that, well, if you don't talk about it, if you don't go there... [00:26:06]

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: ...Then that makes it less likely to happen, except that (pause) the trick at which I think I get what you mean. The tricky part is that the strategy you offer me but also it doesn't really end up having [and then you just worry you'll fall apart] [ph].

CLIENT: Yeah, it doesn't always work out very well.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: (Whispers) Yeah.

[Silence from 00:26:42 to 00:26:58]

CLIENT: But its [change is attractive] [ph].

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It doesn't have to be change permanently, but I (becomes emotional) felt like I'm not in Wednesday. How long? But way too long...

THERAPIST: [Probably Sunday] [ph].

CLIENT: [Chuckles] One [ph] in ten minutes. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Um, (pause) reading articles on Wikipedia about psychiatry the other day (begins to cry)...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: ...And it is like, (says weakly) "Well, there is a second [ph] surprise." (Recovers emotion) Like, if I had more information, clearly, I could control the situation. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Wait. [Chuckles] Like, um (pause) uh, what would you recommend [ph]?

CLIENT: Um, I...

THERAPIST: Like, I assume you're going to therapy. When you say "psychiatry," I don't know if you were referring to the medication or to the drugs [ph].

CLIENT: No, I yeah, there is a lot of articles about psychiatry in general on Wikipedia, like way too many.

THERAPIST: Oh, there is

CLIENT: Um, I mean more than four hours. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I read about borderline personality disorder... [00:28:04]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh?

CLIENT: ...And I read about a bunch of the different therapeutic models for treatment, and then I read about lots of different therapy models of treatment in general...

THERAPIST: Uh-huh?

CLIENT: ...So on and so forth. (Pause) I decided that I don't I still don't have borderline...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: ...Even though there are a lot of things that are pretty similar.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: Um, (pause) and (pause) well, it is a little depressing that that much of my life can be summed up in so few sentences. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] [Becomes emotional while laughing] Um, it was one of them was like so I start reading, and then it is several hours later. Where did the day go?

THERAPIST: Wow. [00:28:59]

CLIENT: Um, (pause) and (pause) yeah, I (pause) I think I was sort of reading around, trying to figure out what you're doing in here. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Because, you know, I couldn't have just asked you. [Chuckles] I might have asked you a year ago but I don't remember the answer.

THERAPIST: [inaudible at 00:29:25] clear now [ph].

CLIENT: And, you know, yeah.

THERAPIST: Did you figure it out?

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Um, (pause) not really. I mean, it seems like just kind of standard psychoanalysis classical psychoanalysis and [what to believe] [ph]. Yeah. (Pause) [00:29:54]

And (pause) I find free association really, really scary. Like, we may have talked about it before...

THERAPIST: Maybe [months ago] [ph].

CLIENT: ...But I just wanted to reiterate. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Thank you for letting me.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] So I I don't know. I (pause) I guess I'm I'm just (pause) trying to figure out what you were doing there and why, and what the point was and...

THERAPIST: You mean of [me investigating] [ph]?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

[Silence from 00:30:34 to 00:30:45]

CLIENT: I yeah, do other people find it as terrifying as I do?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: [inaudible at 00:30:49]? (Pause) Wikipedia didn't have anything about that. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Um...

THERAPIST: There is no line like, "Yes, [marry me] [ph]?" [00:31:01]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] That would be really nice, but no. (Pause) Um, (pause) I think [inaudible at 00:31:14]. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:31:14 to 00:31:32]

THERAPIST: I (pause) that makes me wonder if part of the reason you're worried about asking me more exactly about these things or maybe even demonstrating more interest in them is that you're worried you [likely do see it] [ph] that way. [00:32:00]

CLIENT: (Inhales) (sighs)

THERAPIST: Maybe you [worry more] [ph] about that.

CLIENT: I worry a lot about it. (Pause) That makes sense. That is not a connection I would think ever occurred.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (Sighs) (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I I mean, as I said, I (clears throat) since I've often imagined that you kind of inhibited asking or talking to me, that could be more because you worry about the [angry orientation] [ph] than not like an affair, but it sounds like there is another [pre-informed part] [ph] that has to do with [inaudible at 00:33:02]... [00:33:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...Being seductive.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:33:06 to 00:33:33]

CLIENT: I was worried about this with my friend Franco [ph] for a long time, also.

THERAPIST: Oh?

CLIENT: I just (pause) I don't know. I worried.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Um (pause)...

THERAPIST: Does it relate at all to you having any attraction to him or to me, or is it more just a worry about the other end [ph]? [00:34:00]

CLIENT: I mean, it no, I really felt it, being attracted to people.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh?

CLIENT: Um, I (pause) (sighs) tend to be attracted to people, which is not that important. More important, I think, like I tend to feel very strongly towards people.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like, I love people very easily, and that is just me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: Um, and it is something I like about myself.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: That is that, when it it leads to terrible things. Um, (pause) and (pause) yeah. No, I mean, if you were six inches taller, I could work with you. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: No, really. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Oh, (pause) Um... [00:34:59]

THERAPIST: But I don't plan on being [inaudible at 00:35:00]...

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yeah, yeah.

[Silence from 00:35:05 to 00:35:19]

CLIENT: You know, for (pause) (sighs) with Joshua, it has been a long time, though. The question is like, um, is his was his wife OK with us being friends?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I didn't really know. I still don't really know.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But I haven't seen him in several months. Um, (pause)....

[Silence from 00:35:44 to 00:36:02]

[00:36:00]

CLIENT: I guess I always have (pause) (sighs) as usual, I tended to think of my being attracted to people as basically harmless, and then [without needs ] [ph] [relatively no harm done] [ph]...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: ...And I don't know what I (pause) can do or I don't know when to start being afraid and to [give up time] [ph].

THERAPIST: I see. And we should go back to the part about if I was six inches taller, I think...

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: ...Because I think it made you anxious to say. [Chuckles] Probably, that...

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yes. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: ...And I just thought it was something funny, and intended to be reassuring, but...

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure. Um uh, (pause) [chuckles] you [look at this as good cheating] [ph].

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yes, [chuckles] yes it is.

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Keep going. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Um, so (pause)...

[Silence from 00:37:23 to 00:37:35]

THERAPIST: OK, so (pause) wow, I don't know what I want to I'll start talking to [inaudible at 00:37:44].

CLIENT: OK. [Clears throat]

THERAPIST: And I imagine that (sighs) there are two sides of the comment and that you're probably worried about both of them. One is saying you would be attracted to me, which could make you nervous and really but about that is probably more so in that it could be productive to me. [00:38:06]

And the other part saying that you're not, which I imagine I would feel a [inaudible at 00:38:20].

CLIENT: Yeah, um, (pause) no, that is not right. I (sighs) (pause)...

[Silence from 00:38:29 to 00:38:43]

CLIENT: I guess that comment is more like would have been a lot more relevant a year ago. Um, (pause) in that (pause)... [00:39:00]

It is not so much that there is something I want to say and have trouble saying; it is more like I can't figure out how to make everything I'm thinking into something I can say...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...Or into does that make sense? (Pause) Yeah, I mean, I (pause)...

[Silence from 00:39:35 to 00:39:51]

CLIENT: (Says lowly) I don't know what to say. Um, (pause)... [00:40:00]

So, like, it (pause) was important to me when we started working together that you not be in the category of people that I would ordinarily be attracted to.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: Um, (pause) but at the same time, I [may as well be], so that doesn't really...

THERAPIST: But but then you....

CLIENT: Um, oh, just do or not.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: OK, I was trying to picture the way [inaudible at 00:40:42]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] No, he yeah, he just wasn't somebody who it would occur to me to find attractive.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like, (pause) until I fell in love with him.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Um, (pause)... [00:41:00]

(Pause) I don't know. (Pause)

(Pause) Yeah, I'm glad to be talking about this, but it is hard to talk about.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: Um, (pause)...

THERAPIST: Yeah, you kind of talked about it [would be OK] [ph].

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (Pause) Um, (pause)...

THERAPIST: And (pause) I really tried to, but, in a way, you really don't have any control over whether I'm going to say the wrong thing.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) Well, I mean, there is (pause) I am afraid that you will say the wrong thing and hurt me, but I'm also afraid that I will say the wrong thing and hurt you. [00:42:10]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Um, (pause) yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

[Silence from 00:42:18 to 00:42:34]

CLIENT: And (sighs) yeah. Well, I'm worried that I will say the wrong thing and hurt you or, alternatively, that I will say something that causes you to fall for me. So, really, there is like a very narrow path of things that will be OK, in my mind. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Maybe there aren't any things that feel like they will be OK [chuckles] in your mind, but...

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yeah...

THERAPIST: ...You're kind of looking at it any way. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Yeah. [Chuckles] [00:42:59]

THERAPIST: And you sort of are hopeful, in part, that you can talk about it openly.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean (pause)...

THERAPIST: You worry.

CLIENT: (Whispers) Yeah. Um, (pause) how is the time? Is it the time has passed?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is about...

CLIENT: OK. (Pause)

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: OK, thank you.

[Stands up to leave, door opens and closes]

END TRANSCRIPT