TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Anyway, good morning.

CLIENT: Good morning. (Pause) Yeah, my friend Joshua...

THERAPIST: Uh-huh?

CLIENT: ...Lives kinda far, I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He lives, like, 25 miles away. I said that the first time.

THERAPIST: [inaudible at 00:00:22]

CLIENT: Yeah, that is right. No, because it is for [inaudible at 00:00:27] but they're not that far. Anyway...

THERAPIST: [ph], maybe?

CLIENT: Maybe. I don't know. He lives way out.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He drives in. He leaves at six to get here by 6:30, 6:45. And I asked why he left so early, and he said that the first couple of times he'd driven after he moved here, he left at seven and it took him two and a half hours. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Oh, my God.

CLIENT: I was like [chuckles] that scarred me a little bit.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So, yeah. Oy. [00:01:00]

Um, (pause) [inaudible at 00:01:05]? Well, OK, so but (pause)...

[Silence from 00:01:10 to 00:01:29]

CLIENT: I have been working on not I have a tendency to kind of plan what I want to say...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: ...So that I don't get caught out free associating because that would be horrible, so I'm trying not to do that. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm pretty nervous today.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: I'm (says lowly) [going to break] [00:02:00]

(Sighs) (Pause) I had another game to play last night. I lost miserably, overtime, but it was a good night.

THERAPIST: Right...

CLIENT: And that was OK. It was really fun.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I really don't like losing, but...

THERAPIST: Yeah, like [I'd come there and couldn't get game] [ph] or something...

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yeah, I'm really good at Banangrams, like really good.

THERAPIST: [Chuckles] Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I feel like that I don't know that is real sort of lame to me, to be like, "But let's play this game that I can win." You know? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Um, (pause) yeah. (Pause) In a lot of ways, I feel like (pause) it (pause) Franco and James are kind of better friends than Franco and I are at this point. [00:03:04]

I mean, it is just they have more to talk to one another about. Um, (pause) and (pause) it is one of those things that I know that is a good thing and it also a little bit hard. Um, (pause) it is like I feel a little bit left out but, at the same time, I think, "Well, James doesn't really have anybody he is involved in other than Franco." Like, he really and I think I think Franco is a little lonely, as well. I'm like, "Get over yourself, mate [ph]." [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Hm.

[Silence from 00:03:44 to 00:03:55]

CLIENT: And I don't (pause) (sighs)... [00:04:01]

I don't know how much of it is me needing to be the center of attention. Also, (pause) um...

[Silence from 00:04:10 to 00:04:37]

CLIENT: It was just a little bit cold. Um, (pause) we spent the evening talking about some things I pretty much can't follow, and then also losing horribly. [Chuckles] Not that horribly, but it is (pause) (sighs) but it is one of those things that all of the ways in which I don't enjoy these things are things I don't like very much in myself, so I (pause) yeah.

THERAPIST: (Clears throat)

CLIENT: ...[Don't want to lose] [ph]. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:05:27 to 00:05:47]

CLIENT: (Inhales sharply, possibly crying) [00:06:00]

(Whispers) I (pause) (recovers) I'm just I'm anxious that what I talked about yesterday is going to change something. I don't want anything to change.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I like things the way they are. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Noted.

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Yeah, um (pause)...

[Silence from 00:06:35 to 00:07:10]

(Door closes)

[00:07:00]

CLIENT: I sleep a lot these days. Like, I [suddenly, honestly,] [ph] the night before the last and I was so tired after talking with you that I came back and like wrote in journal for a while, and then I just went to sleep and slept like almost basically, until it was time to make dinner to go up to Franco's.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (Pause) (whispers) Yeah. (Pause) Mostly, James I said, "How long have I been sleeping?" He said, "You've been sleeping for a while," and I said, "Oh, OK," and I just went back to sleep. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: Um, (pause) but it is hard for me to fall asleep because I I just start... [00:08:02]

All of the things that I don't usually think about, I start thinking about. Like, I started thinking about the job searches and [then go to bed] [ph], and when your phone [ph] seems harder to (pause) say, "No, no, now that times are bad, and we'll put aside." (Sighs)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (Pause) And I start worrying about James. (Pause) He told me at one point (pause) when I was like the last time I was in the hospital (pause) and he told me that he just couldn't handle me going into a crisis again, that he was [just afraid it would be too much for him] [ph]. [00:09:19]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And I don't exactly know what he meant by that because I know he is not going to lose me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (Pause) And the pressure... (pause)

[Silence from 00:09:38 to 00:09:48]

CLIENT: You know, I think was like this was at the end of I mean, I was coming home for a little bit, and he [stood in here] [ph] like from calling back in when I got to the hospital for a few days, and I'm like, "I'm feeling better and I'm coming back." [00:10:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which at least that is what James told me [back then] [ph]. [Chuckles] I don't remember very well. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: Um, (pause) I hate not remembering. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:10:17 to 00:10:37]

CLIENT: Um, (pause)...

THERAPIST: Care for a mint?

CLIENT: No, no. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Uh, (pause) it (pause) seems to me you're feeling now like intense pressure here to do this correctly, to supposing [ph] to touch on difficult... [00:11:07]

CLIENT: Yeah, I do. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: ...Very painful things, and yet I think you also probably because I (pause) I'm not sure if I in December or maybe it goes by with what you said yesterday, is that the ones I'd want to meet so lightly [ph] (pause) and me be kind of admire being [inaudible at 00:11:39] about them. But I think you're also feeling that like the demand here [is kind of] [ph] untenable, that (pause) some of these things make you so anxious or whatever that it is too much to talk about. [00:12:06]

Or it is hard to sort of follow your thoughts about many of the things that you bring up. And I think you're really worried that (pause) both of us are going to think you're doing a terrible job. (Pause)

CLIENT: Oh. (Pause) Yes. I mean, yes, that is right, [chuckles] pretty much all of it.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: (Pause) If...

THERAPIST: I guess what I also mean is that (pause) I (pause) sort of (pause)... [00:12:59]

There is some combination of my having no understanding and having not having patience for what, though, are [those things] [ph]. Then if I (pause)...

CLIENT: Um, (pause) I don't agree with you there.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: I'm feeling it is more like (pause)...

THERAPIST: I'm not helping [ph] you because I'm not talking about the version of me that [is solely in your head] [ph].

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: I'm talking to you about the one that you're scared of.

CLIENT: OK. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I may still be wrong, but I just want it clear. [Chuckles] [00:13:59]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] OK. Um, (pause) I don't really know about that. I don't really know [what I'm feeling, right] [ph].

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I guess it is (pause) there is like (pause) on the one hand, this does feel like a very safe place for me and, on the other hand, I feel like, recently, I've become like, I've felt a lot more pressure and a lot more scared.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And I (pause) but so then they're kind of there at the same time, and that is confusing.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: (Sighs) I think I feel more pressure as I get better, actually.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Um, like, now [when I talk about] [ph]...

THERAPIST: Hm. [00:15:00]

CLIENT: ...Um, (pause) or it because less a matter of (pause) you know, it is when I am in a crisis, it is pretty clear what I need in some ways. It is pretty clear what I need to do.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: And (pause) when I'm not, (door closes) it is it is (pause) I feel like I (pause) I'm not, you know, (pause) it is like, when I'm in a crisis, my job is pretty clearly to get out of it.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: And then, when I'm not you know, here, I'm not entirely sure what my job is. [00:16:02]

Um, (pause) and it is like I go from saying, "Well, if your job is to take care of yourself, to -" my job is not to take care of myself at all.

[Silence from 00:16:19 to 00:16:50]

CLIENT: I think there was something else but I forget.

THERAPIST: Mm, that, when you're in crisis, the demands sort of, in a way, let up. [00:17:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) Um...

THERAPIST: And then, as you move out of it, they come back?

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:17:18 to 00:17:59]

CLIENT: You don't worry in crisis like it is not surprising if I can't do this right because I don't do anything right. [00:18:09]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Um, (pause) like, you know, I it is (pause) overall [ph], it is like all of these expectations are back. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:18:34 to 00:19:27]

[00:19:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, and it doesn't really matter that you know, on one level, I know that pretty much whatever I do is going to be OK, here at least, because (pause) it is a very small segment of things that I can do that would be right. And (pause) (exhales words) I don't know how to get there. (Sighs) [00:20:00]

THERAPIST: I'm a little confused. First, you said, "Here, I know pretty much anything I do is OK."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then you said, "And then there is this very small segment of things I can do that would be right." Do you mean the first version, when you're not like when you're in crisis and the second is the rest of the time?

CLIENT: No, it is like the...

THERAPIST: Or are those pieces of...?

CLIENT: ...First is like wide, cognitively, that I know is the case.

THERAPIST: Aha, OK. I get it.

CLIENT: Like, this is how this kind of theory works, and then goes to what I think is the case. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So, (pause) yeah...

[Silence from 00:20:38 to 00:21:07]

[00:21:00]

CLIENT: I think it is something [ph] less that I think of you as being impatient or punitive in any way and more that I think of it as, "Well, everybody has got limits, like, nobody can be that patient."

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. So that is how I can be both like very cool in one way and yet very demanding in a sense.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: OK. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:21:39 to 00:21:49]

THERAPIST: I am smiling because if I were demanding and impatient then (pause) would you always want to talk to me in the first place? [00:22:01]

You know, like...

CLIENT: Yeah, pretty much.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Um (pause)...

[Silence from 00:22:05 to 00:22:19]

CLIENT: Yeah, it is sort of like (pause) James will snap at me for no reason and that doesn't happen terribly often but it is happening more often...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: ...Um, (pause) but it is not I don't think of James as somebody who snaps at people for no reason; I think of him as somebody who is very patient and is under a whole lot of pressure.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

[Silence from 00:22:50 to 00:23:00]

[00:23:00]

CLIENT: A whole lot of pressure that I put onto him.

THERAPIST: Right.

[Silence from 00:23:06 to 00:24:04]

[00:24:00]

CLIENT: Kind of one of the frustrating things where like I recognize that I don't that I'm not responsible for other people's actions, like I don't make people act in a certain way, but I'm totally convinced that I do... [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: ...Somehow. (Pause) You know? But (pause) when James snaps at me, the first thing is like I kind of take an assessment of what happened in the last day or half-day, and then, "OK, what did I do to make him snap at me?" And, eventually, I come up with, "No, I didn't do anything. I was just sitting here."

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: "Well, then it must be my fault in some other way." [Chuckles] [00:25:00]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Um, (pause)...

[Silence from 00:25:04 to 00:25:50]

CLIENT: Yet I don't want that to be the way I work with James.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. (Pause) [I feel like I've had enough] [ph] of these relationships. I want to be done. [00:26:04]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

[Silence from 00:26:05 to 00:27:40]

THERAPIST: I think (pause) that [those are] [ph] you kind of (pause) maybe to sort of maintain the idea that you have (pause) any control over how the other person reacts, because (pause) you feel so totally (says slowly) at their mercy. [00:28:33]

CLIENT: Hmm.

[Silence from 00:28:34 to 00:28:42]

CLIENT: I see. (Pause) So it is easier for me to say (pause) "I did something to make to make James snap at me and, the next time, I'll be able to not do that," than it is to say, "Well, sometimes, James just goes off," or, "sometimes James just loses his temper for no reason, and there is nothing I can do about it." [00:29:16]

THERAPIST: Yeah. And it is partly "next time," and it is partly, "Well, and, this time, I could have avoided it," which is sort of like undoing it a little bit.

CLIENT: Hmm. (Pause) Hmm, OK. (Pause) Yeah. (pause)

[Silence from 00:29:42 to 00:30:05]

[00:30:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, the only thing I can think of is to get to where it doesn't hurt me for James to snap at me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like, I'm really not very good. Like, it really, really hurts me feelings...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: ...I think much more than is reasonable, (pause) and it really scares me. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:30:35 to 00:30:49]

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) So with James, it is like he is in a bad mood and he snaps at me, and so I say, "OK, I [better do] something else now," and he goes, "It doesn't [pay off] [ph]," and then, two hours later, he says, "Yeah, I'm sorry. I was in a bad mood," and that is that. Like, that is all it is. [00:31:11]

And just expecting the him snapping at me to be the beginning of something huge and devastating. Um...

THERAPIST: Why "beginning?" [ph]

CLIENT: You know, it is like...

THERAPIST: The tip of an iceberg.

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: Like the tip of an iceberg.

CLIENT: Yeah, (pause) yeah.

THERAPIST: Which is like an iceberg because, [if it is knocked out of the way], [it could tumbling on the boat] [ph].

CLIENT: Yeah, (pause) yeah. It is like [a knife stabbing me] [ph]. Sometimes, it was that was that, but most of the time, that was the beginning of Bryan yelling at me, or the beginning of some horrible, long, drawn-out fighting in which I didn't really know what I was I was in the wrong somehow and I didn't know how. [00:32:19]

[Silence from 00:32:20 to 00:32:39]

CLIENT: Like, James needs to be able to be angry for no reason.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I really watch [ph] that. (Pause) It is not going to work for me to be saying, "You can't do this around me."

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, realistically, I'm like, [chuckles] "That is not going to work." [Chuckles] [00:33:02]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

[Silence from 00:33:03 to 00:34:18]

[00:34:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, [this year] [ph], I was (mumbles) [waiting through a level of patience] [ph], but nobody [had patience [ph].

THERAPIST: Huh.

[Silence from 00:34:27 to 00:35:18]

[00:35:00]

THERAPIST: Though I can see how this is (pause) kind of impossible in the people who are or at least seem to be fairly reasonable, like [inaudible at 00:35:35] as opposed to somebody like Bryan, (pause) in that (pause) like (pause) [inaudible at 00:35:58] to make that sort of an the thing. [00:36:08]

[inaudible at 00:36:09] that were hurtful and, in time, (pause) I guess it is like (pause) I don't know like so painful and so lonely [ph] when that happens.

CLIENT: Yeah, it (pause) yes, it kind of completely undoes me. Um, (pause) but it is also fairly unsettling when you don't run out of patience because that doesn't fit what I (pause) am expecting or know. [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

[Silence from 00:37:01 to 00:37:17]

THERAPIST: That is really scary.

CLIENT: What is? [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: That is really scary. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] (whispers) Yeah. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: At least the other model is giving you something to do and some way of understanding [chuckles] what the hell is going on.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Yeah, (pause) yet I don't understand this at all. (Pause)

[Silence from 00:37:41 to 00:38:33]

THERAPIST: I wonder whether some of this what you're talking about today is it their reaction to what you were talking about yesterday, whether (pause) could you, in a way, feel like you talked about something yesterday. Like I don't know [look at things have been] [ph]. [00:39:02]

I wonder if it clearly is having something to do that you were probably anxious [maybe a bunch, a few times] [ph].

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And I wonder if one way you're trying to kind of deal with being here today having said that stuff yesterday [chuckles] is to sort of think of it as a way as having been bad to talk about, or wrong, and maybe trying my patience, and sort of you know, that gives you maybe a kind of a familiar way...

CLIENT: Mm, (pause) [I like that] [ph].

THERAPIST: ...To sort of (pause) like be in control over what I'm going to do and how is it going to settle back down, sort of, "OK, I've been bad."

CLIENT: To have a model of the situation that I understand.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right. [00:40:00]

CLIENT: That makes sense.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah, um, (pause) hmm (pause)...

[Silence from 00:40:16 to 00:40:37]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, it is something that I am ashamed of. (Pause) It (pause) yeah. (Pause) I don't know. (Pause) [00:41:00]

Um, (pause) I have to, maybe, dealing with a thing is very frightening to me, by saying, "Well, that was clearly wrong for me to talk about."

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm, (pause) a little bit like (pause) [you're quiet right now] to keep it like, if James snaps at you, then you sort of go back to (pause) everything that happens and forget what you did wrong to bring that about. It is sort of different because you both of you feel like you did something wrong, so you could imagine him snapping at you. I don't know. [I just felt it but now it makes no sense at all] [ph]. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: (Quietly chuckles)

THERAPIST: [Chuckles] There is something [going on there, but] [ph]...

CLIENT: [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: ...It is not...

CLIENT: Almost.

THERAPIST: [Chuckles] Yeah.

CLIENT: Um, yeah. Hmm. (Pause) [00:42:00]

[Silence from 00:42:00 to 00:42:55]

CLIENT: Yeah, and I followed up, in part, (pause) with the other days, and (pause) you were trying you were trying to work out why I was so scared here. [00:43:19]

And part of it there was my Dad, but it didn't seem like that was entirely it.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: James probably needs to know about this. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: That would probably be helpful. [Chuckles]

THERAPIST: [Chuckles]

CLIENT: But I don't know. You know, it is something I've wanted to talk about but it is much easier to talk about when I think, "Well, it is going to be helpful for Chad [ph] to know."

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Um, (pause)...

THERAPIST: That was part of what [inaudible at 00:43:45]?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: [inaudible at 00:43:49]

CLIENT: Oh. [Rises from seat and leaves] [Door opens and closes]

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