TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: I think what's been getting to me the last day or two, the things that I've talked about and the things that you've talked about, I feel there's been a lot of poking at things in myself that I'm not very proud of or that I'm not very happy with and it's very scary for me for you to be able to see all of that. [00:01:07]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: That's the best I can come up with. I've been really just kind of a mess the last day and I don't know why exactly. It's hard to think about even and I'm not thinking very clearly, so that's what I've got.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm thinking most of yesterday you saying that I was I don't know if this is actually what you said, but it's what I (laughing)... you were saying that I was trying to do the free-association thing exactly right, like make you impressed with me. That was right; I just don't like that, so it's hard to hear. (crying) I just don't know what's going on. (crying) [00:03:05] I can't point at anything to say, "This is bothering me." I'm just bothered.

THERAPIST: I think part of what's confusing is that it's not clear yet maybe what makes it so dangerous for me to know these things. It's clear you don't like them about yourself and it's clear they're coming up and I guess it's clear that that feels very bad and dangerous; but it's not quite clear what I might or would do with them to hurt you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay. (crying) (pause) [00:05:19] I've recognized that it seems like a big chunk of this kind of therapy is working out things through our relationship...

THERAPIST: Yes, that's right.

CLIENT:... but it makes things hard (laughs) so I hurt myself a lot yesterday and I'm like I don't know if I want to tell Chad about that because I don't want you to feel like it's your fault. It's much harder for me to talk to you about things that are about you than about things that are about other people, if that makes sense. [00:06:08]

THERAPIST: It sure does.

CLIENT: Maybe it's kind of taken me a while to come around to realizing this; but anyway, here it is. I also feel like I spend a lot of time avoiding talking about this relationship also so you know. (laughs) I feel like you spend a lot of time being like, "Well, it's kind of like having you relate to me." And I'm not going to talk about that right now. (both laugh)

THERAPIST: I see. No, I know that I say things like that all the time. [00:06:57]

CLIENT: (crying) I think I'm exaggerating a little bit, mostly to be funny. (pause) It helped yesterday, the therapy session. (pause) [00:08:04]

THERAPIST: More so than in some times past, I gather?

CLIENT: Yes. (crying) [I think even James noticed. He was saying that.] (ph?) (pause)

THERAPIST: I guess, again, I say sure, it makes sense that it would be more difficult to talk about things to do with you and me that you hurt yourself because of the interaction that we have or other things going on in here; but, again, I guess there's that question of with the first one you kind of explained that you wouldn't want me to feel guilty. I imagine there are other reasons, too, why they're difficult like particular reasons why you wouldn't like to talk about it. [00:09:37]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it seems like maybe they're to do with certainly protecting me or keeping me from getting upset or angry, one of them. It seems like one of those come up, sometimes fairly often. I guess the other one might be more about a worry of my taking advantage of you in some way, like if I know how hard you're trying or how much my approval or enthusiasm or encouragement means or worries about my [falling] (ph?) for you. [00:10:52] (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm not sure why it feels so dangerous for you to know how much I want you to approve of me or whatever, but it really does. It really, really does but... (pause) I'm not sure why. I don't get anywhere.

THERAPIST: Like with the worries about upsetting me or me being angry or something, there's some clear reference of your dad. It seems less clear where that might come from or what's in the backdrop with me so far. [00:12:22] (pause) That was not a question, I guess. It was more that I imagine that lack of context adds to the way it's disconcerting. (long pause) [00:13:33]

CLIENT: I guess one thing that's disconcerting is that it's not I don't know. I was going to say that's not typical of relationships for me. I feel like I tend to just put myself out there, but I don't actually know if that's the case or not. (pause)

THERAPIST: I think one thing and I may be wrong about this you don't tend to put out there is kind of how accommodating or attentive you're being, even sometimes when it doesn't look that way; or how oriented to sort of where the other person is at, what they need, what's going on with them. That sort of thing, which seems related to me in this sort of "trying to please" thing. [00:15:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I think you're right. I think they are related. I went out with Joshua for breakfast the other day and we went to this the little coffee shop in a basement, it's a school thing, because (laughing) Joshua doesn't have any money and I don't have any money either, but he really doesn't like his wife doesn't work and he's got two kids.

THERAPIST: Oh, my gosh.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know how they do it. I think he works as a part-time youth minister at his church and they get housing that way. Yeah, it's insane. I haven't been there for six months. I just can't stand going there. It's so painful to me being there, but I suggested it. (sniggers) [00:16:17]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Of course, then I dropped that I have been avoiding it and he said we could go somewhere else, but then I feel bad about that. (laughs) Also their almond croissants are really good. They're really good. It's the cheapest cup of coffee in like five square miles. [00:17:14]

THERAPIST: They know their clientele.

CLIENT: It has to be cheap?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) I think the school subsidizes him also. I don't think very much of that, except now I will. (laughs) (long pause) [00:18:22]

THERAPIST: Maybe at some level, but not at others, it feels in here like I'm really, really in charge and really dictate how things are going to be and you will do extraordinarily difficult, painful, risky things because of that, and that's just a terribly dangerous situation, especially if I know about it. [00:19:05]

CLIENT: (crying) Yeah, especially if you know about it. (laughs) Yeah, I can't have you know that this is hard for me. (pause) I guess it feels like you have a pretty clear plan, even if the plan is just to sit down and see what happens -that's a pretty good plan (laughs) so, yeah, I'm trying to trust that. It does end up feeling a little bit dictatorial sometimes, even though I don't know where that's coming from because that's the opposite of how you are. [00:20:20]

THERAPIST: I think it's salient that it's not occurring to you all the ways that I am dictatorial and very difficult, not necessarily personally, or at least that's not what I have in mind at the moment. I never asked you if this is how you wanted to go about doing this. I know there are things about the lack of structure [that actually can be encouragement prompting] (ph?) that can be excruciating for you, let alone the lack of responsiveness from me about certain things. [00:21:13]

Even like what came up earlier today where you were like, "Look, I know that the way this kind of therapy works is that we talk about how things play out in our relationship, which is very difficult." Yeah, it's awful; it's excruciating and it strikes me that it doesn't occur to you as you're talking about what this is like that it's totally not the way you would set this up if you had called the shots or even collaborated with me on how this was going to work. Now I know at another level you're coming to me as someone who is trained and does this for a living and probably has some good ideas about how this could be helpful. I know you realize that, but on another level I guess it seems like it doesn't occur to you that if we were to decide collaboratively how this was going to work it would work very different, obviously. Do you know what I mean? [00:22:33]

CLIENT: I do and I was just thinking that you're absolutely right and it's really hard for me to hear you say that. I want to say, "No," but actually, you're right. (laughs) It's like it's painful for me to hear you say things about yourself that might be critical.

THERAPIST: Do you mean just then or at other times as well as just then?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm thinking of just then. [00:23:31]

THERAPIST: Which things did I say about myself? I find it difficult to say them. I said a lot of things.

CLIENT: I guess you didn't ask whether this was the way I wanted to do things and you see that things are hard for me and you say, "Keep doing it anyway." (pause) [00:24:23] I keep wanting to change the subject, but all I can think about to talk about is the West Wing. (laughs) Yeah, you say it's up to me, but I'm not sure that it is exactly up to me. I don't know.

THERAPIST: You mean in the sense that there are times when I then say, "It seems to me that you're saying this and avoiding that," so, yes; it was your choice to change the subject but...

CLIENT: (laughing) [...] (inaudible at 00:25:11) You said once something about the idea in here being for me to do what I wanted to do. I was wondering like if that's the case, why do I spend so much time doing (laughing) the exact opposite of what I want to do? I can think of an answer to that, so it's more of a rhetorical question but it's a question. [00:26:08] So the point of talking about the West Wing was that I could say something like that that would have been way too scary for me to say what I wanted. I just had a very small panic attack right here. I guess it's not a panic attack if it doesn't have any physical symptom; but anyway, I just got really scared. That's all. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I think that you said that what made you really scared was that I said somewhere that the point of this is to do what you want, but you find yourself doing the opposite so often. It looks like it's terrifying as I say it again. [00:26:56]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well... (pause) I imagine it's scary. Maybe it gets at something in a very direct way, in that in one way, it sounds like a recognition or even a confession that, therefore, you're not doing this right.

CLIENT: I think it's more scary because it's critical of you or can be heard as critical of you. [00:28:01] (pause)

THERAPIST: It's almost like I'm, in essence, being deceptive; like I'm saying the point is "X", but "X" isn't really what's happening and I kind of know that, so it really is deceptive.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. (long pause) [00:30:01] Maybe it's that... I don't know. I don't know that this is a criticism at all, so I'm just going to put it out there as an observation. I feel like this gets set up as a very safe place and I feel like this is a very safe place for me, but then I come in and then it gets very painful and scary. It's like it's just safe enough for me to be able to stand how painful and scary it is.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: (pause) (crying) [00:30:59] Yeah, safe enough in a horrible way. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I'm just setting you up all over the place, huh? It's almost as though I were really quite sadistic. I mean I know it's sort of a strong word to use...

CLIENT: You think? (chuckles)

THERAPIST:... but if I've arranged it so that you feel just safe enough that you can allow yourself to be excruciatingly anxious and that I sort of pretend that this is going to be about you when it's really about you doing things the way I want or have set up and, again, I know that at one level you know that it's not but somehow it seems like it. I don't know. That still sounds kind of cruel. It does sound cruel. [00:32:23]

CLIENT: Again, it's hard for me to hear you say that.

THERAPIST: I guess that another piece of it that [I realize you won't want to hear it] (ph?) while I'm kind of arranging things in this sort of cruel sort of way I, at the same time, absolutely will not tolerate any pointing toward it or acknowledging it. I think it's what making you so nervous now. [00:33:37]

CLIENT: No, I don't think that's scary. I feel like you spend a lot of time trying to kind of poke at it (laughs)

THERAPIST: Just like now?

CLIENT: Yeah. (both laugh)

THERAPIST: Fair enough.

CLIENT: (crying) [I don't feel] (ph?) like this is getting too hard for me, that by saying that I kind of buy another five minutes or so. (laughs) (crying)

THERAPIST: It's up to you. I think you also like the West Wing. [00:34:25]

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. Brandon tells me I have to at least make it to the middle of the first season. That's when they really hit their stride. (pause) I love Aaron Sorkin. He was like the god of my playwriting classes. (laughs) We watched a lot of Sports Night. Yeah. (pause) [00:35:11]

THERAPIST: I've not actually seen it, but is that sort of fast-talking, lot of repartee?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's the show I think he did before the West Wing and he really developed that style that he does in everything since. Yeah, it's good. It's a good show. (pause) I feel like you've been trying to make this easier for me today. [00:36:07] I'm here. (chuckles) (crying) (long pause) [00:37:10]

THERAPIST: I remember a time at the end of last summer I don't remember if it was before the move you were very upset here and I don't remember what I was saying but you turned to me and said, "Why are you doing this to me?"

CLIENT: I remember that and I don't remember what you were saying, either.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it was not the sort of thing you usually say.

CLIENT: That's for sure. (laughs) [00:38:01]

THERAPIST: But it seems like it sort of points to what you are talking about now.

CLIENT: Yeah. I really trust you, so the sort of thing like what I'm talking about now, it doesn't come up for me all that often because it's pretty easy for me to say, "It's going to be okay. There is life and it's going to be okay," or "This is part of what's supposed to happen, I guess." It does get to be too much. [00:39:08]

THERAPIST: I think your experience of me as kind of cruel and manipulative is actually terribly important.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I don't think about it that often, so... (long pause) [00:40:24]

THERAPIST: And that you're really scared of me tolerating your seeing me that way.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. (pause) I don't know what you were pointing to, so I see you that way, and also I don't know how to handle seeing you that way. (pause) [00:41:01] It feels like this is becoming less of a safe place, less of an unconditionally safe place and I don't know how to deal with that. I can't deal with that. I'm scared to come here. (pause) It just puts it into the category, basically, of everything else in my life, but it's not like it's unusual for me to be scared of things; I'm scared of everything. It's really hard for me. [00:43:13]

THERAPIST: We should stop for now.

END TRANSCRIPT